Ford Lehman expensive lesson

[Mambo42]

Am not sure it is worth a full thread, but have no idea where to write this. To some it may sound completely logic and useless information, but it took several mechanics over here about a month to figure out what the problem was.

As I have told before I had to change both my engines and that basically took forever. The company installing the engines told me the boat was ready to go, so when I showed up obviously the boat was..................not ready at all. Leakages all over the place as well as loose bolts (even a loose engine mount).
The company claimed they had run the engines and according to them the engines ran fine.
The moment we put the boat into the water however I noticed a heavy vibration throughout the whole boat. Everything was rattling and shaking, plus there was a heavy resonance of the engines. I informed the mechanics about this, but according to them the engines were running fine, had to be something else. So they came up with changing the rubber blocks in the engine mounts. I did not agree with that, so that idea was ditched. Then one of the mechanics came with an elaborate explanation that the company, which overhauled the engine blocks, must have made a mistake. Was quite common according to them.
The company also claimed that the engines had been running fine when they tested them, so it must have happened after the boat went into the water. In any case, they still claimed the engines were running fine.
The fact there was a lot of engine smoke was normal according to them, the engines were basically brand new, piston rings had to be run in to the cylinders, so normal to have an engine smoke more than when run in.

In came the next mechanic and his expertise was injectors and fuel pumps. He tested the spray pattern of the injectors, which were fine and after that he instantly told me the Minimecs needed to be overhauled. He had seen the boat a few years before and already stated then that the fuel pumps needed an overhaul. That would cost me 3000 euro a piece (I have 2 of them), but then the problem would defnitely be over.
To me it did not make any sense, these were the same fuel pumps as I had on the old engines and those engines were running great. It was that some moron decided to destroy my engines by running them with the sea cocks closed, but the fuel pumps were fine.

And after that I got a lot of tips from a lot of mechanics who all had their ideas. When I told them it sounded to me the engines were running on 4 or 5 cylinders that was instanly embraced and the remedy was changed to checking the timing of the fuel pump. A lot of work, could be possible, but in the end, after 1 month of having heard all kinds of proposals i finally got a hold of the mechanic that had rebuild the original engines last year.
He came in last Saturday, told him the whole sequence, we started the engines and within 1 min he told me he had an idea of what it could be. He had heard it once before, many years ago, so wanted to test that.
Out came the injectors again, back to the test bench at a different specialist and indeed the spray pattern was good. However............they were spraying at a pressure which was lower than prescribed.
In other words, the injectors would start spraying fuel into the cylinders at the wrong momen, thereby causing the same problems as if the timing is off, as if the engine is running on 4 or 5 cylinders, causing vibrations etc.

Once the real cause was determined it was a very easy fix, for the total cost of 80 euro (about 90 USD) per engine, we put the injectors back in and the engines are now running like they should. No more vibrations, no more misfires, no more rough running and no more smoke.

In all a very costly (money and time) experience and lesson. Just because a company has all kinds of dealerships from reputable brands and just because someone claims to be a diesel mechanic or fuel pump expert...............it does not make them good and it does not mean they actually know what they are doing. I had the luck of knowing a guy with 35 years of experience on Ford Lehman and am happy he was willing to come over to the island in the end. Without him I would still be here in September and probably would have still the same problems.

Should I have been present during the time of the replacement of the engines ? Yes, I should have, but this whole engine change has taken well over 7 months. Everytime new reasons came up for the delays and on this island there aren't that many companies that can handle a job like this.
I could not be here for 7 months, baby sitting them. After 3 months I had to go back home to prepare our move to Greece. I was promised the boat would be ready on 30 March. it is now 3rd of May and we are still not finished. Engines are done, now we go into fitting the heavy alternators to the engines, will take another week at least.
As a result I had to change the date with the next company, which will install the stabilizers, twice. First planned at the beginning of June quickly became mid June and is now the beginning of July. That will cause additional problems, since by that time we are looking at temperatures well over 100 degrees in Turkey. It is going to be a sauna in the engine room. Our apartment that we had booked for June is not available anymore in the beginning of July, so have to search for something else.........in high season.

Will we ever come back to this island for repairs ? Not a chance.
Will we ever recommend any of these companies ? Not a chance.

If anyone ever runs into these type of problems and a company claims they have tested the spray pattern of the injectors.......ask them if they are also spraying at the correct pressure. Chances are you will have to tell them what that pressure should be. But it can save you a lot of time, money and problems.

 

[DavidM]

The injector opening pressure is a test that should have been done when the spray pattern was first checked. Not a common problem but a very common injector test.

David

 

[TowLou]

Pop test I believe its called. Definitely one of those tests you want done with the spray pattern if they get pulled.

Glad its sorted.

 

[Mambo42]

The injector opening pressure is a test that should have been done when the spray pattern was first checked. Not a common problem but a very common injector test.

David

You are right and I ............assumed that the first 'specialist' had checked it. Turned out that the old saying: To assume makes an ASS out of U and Me is correct again.
Apparently it is necessary to micro manage so called specialists, very annoying.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Of course nobody can babysit an entire engine rebuild and replacement, But...

You should have been in the shop when they did the test run, all shops do it. It would have saved you a lot of headaches.

pete

 

[CharlieO.]

So were those the same injectors the company test ran the engine with?

 

[SteveK]

Glad your problems are solved. some clarification please.
"Out came the injectors again, back to the test bench at a different specialist and indeed the spray pattern was good. However............they were spraying at a pressure which was lower than prescribed.
In other words, the injectors would start spraying fuel into the cylinders at the wrong moment, thereby causing the same problems as if the timing is off, as if the engine is running on 4 or 5 cylinders, causing vibrations etc."

When I read the above it sounded like injection timing was off. That would be injector pump timing? The lower pressure, what caused that? What was the easy to fix?

 

[psneeld]

I think many injectors have adjustable pop pressure...some mabe many with shims.

 

[Mambo42]

Of course nobody can babysit an entire engine rebuild and replacement, But...

You should have been in the shop when they did the test run, all shops do it. It would have saved you a lot of headaches.

pete

I stayed on the island until mid-december, waiting and hoping for the company to get a move on, but every time it were new excuses of parts not ordered, no time, other projects etc. In the end I had to go home, get a new company to finish the job and since I was living 10.000 km down the road it was not exactly possible to be present for any test run.
In fact, even the test run was postponed 4 times for the simple reason they had 'emergency jobs' to do somewhere else. I guess they just figured my boat had to be ready by end of March, they had more than enough time and kept postponing.
The engine had already been test run in the workshop that overhauled the engine, so I knew that work was done OK, they sent me the after test report. After they did their test run they removed all the components and sent just the block. Then my parts (cylinderhead, fuel pump, water pump etc need to be installed again, after which the local test run was to be done.
During those two test runs the engines ran fine according to the mechanics, but with the injectors being off we now know that was not the truth. Were they incapable of figuring out the engines did not run OK or did they just not care ?
What I do know from many companies in this countries is that they all have a lot of BlahBlah, don't like working, but do like being paid outrageous fees for their mediocre service.

 

[Mambo42]

When I read the above it sounded like injection timing was off. That would be injector pump timing? The lower pressure, what caused that? What was the easy to fix?

Basically you are indeed dealing with a timing issue. The fuel is injected too early, starts to burn at a much lower compression (when they piston is not in the correct position) and as a result the piston is already pushed back before it reaches TDC.
Another result of the lower temperature the fuel is burning at you won't reach complete combustion, so a lot of fuel goes out as smoke and is turned into tar in the cylinders.

By raising the pressure of the injectors the fuel is injected at the correct timing, thereby reaching a higher compression, higher temperature and more complete burn, which means less smoke, smoother running engine, less stress on the whole block, more power, better fuel consumption etc.

If the pressure in the injectors would have been correct then you are indeed looking at a timing issue of the pump and for that you need to take the pulley off, check the timing marks etc

And of course you have the odd fuel technician, who wants to earn money and who tells you the low pressure is the result of a fuel pump issue, which requires the fuel pump to be overhauled. And of course he will gladly do that for you when you pay him well over 3000 USD. It won't solve the problem, but he has 3000 USD in his pockets (in my case 6000 USD for 2 fuel pumps).

 

[Lepke]

I've rebuilt many engines and the injectors always go to an injector shop or get replaced with new. Also, all accessories like water pumps, starters get rebuilt or replaced. Having the whole engine behaving like new is just good business. Trying to reuse accessories without rebuild just leads to future small problems that happen too soon and take the shine off a rebuilt engine.

 

[Comodave]

Glad you are making some progress. When I have major work done I always give them a due date a long way before I actually need it done. When you tell them the real needed by date they will wait until the week before to get started.

 

[ronobrien]

The injector opening pressure is a test that should have been done when the spray pattern was first checked. Not a common problem but a very common injector test.

David

Agreed. I was taught that you set the injector in the stand and pop it 3-4 times. Then check for opening pressure, then check it for leakage/drips. Only then do you pay close attention to the pattern.

 

[lwarden]

I chased a similar problem with my port engine. The port engine always seemed to have a bit more shake at idle and under load moved around more than the stbd. This shake resulted in having to really load up the PSS shaft seal to prevent spraying over 2,000 RPM. The vibration was the worst at 2,000-2,400 RPM and would set up a harmonic that made the bow rails shake.

I replaced engine mounts which were 20 years old and a bit crusty, no improvement.
Pulled the shaft and had it checked along with the coupler, it was perfect.
Aligned the engines several times.
Had the props checked for balance and they were perfect.
All these things made no difference at all.

Finally after sitting watching the engine at idle I put my fingers on each injector line. I felt that one line on #2 cyl felt different from the others, it had more of a knock.

So as a guess I ordered a new set of OEM Bosch injectors which wasn't much more than testing and rebuilding the old ones. This solved the problem. I went on countless forums including boat diesel and SBMAR and no one suspected injectors were the culprit.

Now it's smooth as can be all the way through the RPM range.

 

[floater]

Glad to hear you've sorted it out. Which Island is this you refer too?