Anatomy of a Capsize (Steve Dashew video)

[mvweebles]

9-min YouTube video from SetSail/Dashew of a 50-ish foot fishing trawler. Fast forward to 4:30 to see analysis on why the trawler capsized - theory is it 'tripped' over itself as seas changed direction due to passage of cold front. Has some tips on staying upright.

https://youtu.be/8l00sJFIYkA

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. mv. Chilling. I don't even like watching that sort of stuff. Thank the meteorologists for accurate weather predictions. BIG difference between a bad prediction and a bad decision. A word to "newbies". When in doubt, don't go out.

On occasion when I'm talking to a non boater and mention the size of our vessel, they often say "Wow. I betcha that boat can take big waves". My reply is I never want to see big waves.


We've delayed a Gulf Stream crossing a couple of times waiting on more acceptable (IMO) weather. So far, so good.

 

[gsholz]

It is educational. That was a seaworthy fishing boat will low center of gravity. But running downwind in breaking seas opens you up to broaching. Once the big rudder is in white water, you have no control. Slowly heading into the waves might have been a better tactic but that would get them further out vs back home. Things can go from manageable to capsized in a blink of an eye.

 

[DavidM]

It was interesting to note the limit of positive stability for that boat. During an earlier wave that didn't capsize the boat, Dashew says that it had just about reached its limit. Looked to be about 45 degrees.

Contrast that with sailboats where 120-145 degrees is the norm. Makes you wonder if any trawler is safe for an extended blue water cruise.

David

 

[Mischief Managed]

It was interesting to note the limit of positive stability for that boat. During an earlier wave that didn't capsize the boat, Dashew says that it had just about reached its limit. Looked to be about 45 degrees.

Contrast that with sailboats where 120-145 degrees is the norm. Makes you wonder if any trawler is safe for an extended blue water cruise.

David

Dashew (FPB) Trawlers are considered quite safe for extended blue water cruising.

 

[mvweebles]

Thank the meteorologists for accurate weather predictions. BIG difference between a bad prediction and a bad decision.

Yes, do all you can to stay out of dangerous seas. But for long distance cruisers, the possibility of landing in difficult situations increases. My guess is the captain/crew of that fishing trawler had decent weather information, it just got way worse than expected or there was a mechanical failure (had to be a reason the vessel where the camera was located was standing by). We are not immune to either, and not as well equipped to deal with consequences as a commercial fisherman. Something to think about.....

 

[DavidM]

Dashew's FPB trawlers are safe because their angle of vanishing stability is 120 degrees or more. He considers 120 degrees to be the minimum for an offshore boat, a value that few maybe none of the typical blue water trawlers meet. For example a Nordhavn meeting CE Catagory A Ocean, only achieves a 100 degree value. Still pretty good relative to the trawler in that film.



Another reason that his boats are safe is that they can get out of the way of most storms. You need to have communications ability (to know where the storm is and is going) and the speed to get out of the way.



David

 

[Blissboat]

Interesting footage, but didn't that fishing trawler look unnaturally tender right from the opening frame? She never seemed to overcome a slight port list, no matter what heading she steered. Maybe it was the wind pressure on all that trawl gear aloft. Speaking of which, the weight of that gear raised her center of gravity, making her considerably more tender than she would have been with those booms rigged out.

In any case, keep seas like that far away from me!

 

[Seevee]

Interesting thread....


First, I have zero desire to be a blue water boater, but can certainly appreciate the planning and skills that would go into this. One would have to keep up with the weather patterns and do a good job of avoidance.



The comment about the waves switching as the front passed.... I doubt that one could recognize the actual passage quick enough to make immediate boating decisions. Even the fast ones don't more that fast, however, one can notice as the winds change slowing. However, with front passages, there are often gusts and fluctuating winds which can be challenging.

 

[lipets]

the weight of that gear raised her center of gravity, making her considerably more tender than she would have been with those booms rigged out.

Could have lowered a lot of rigging on deck perhaps

 

[lipets]

the weight of that gear raised her center of gravity, making her considerably more tender than she would have been with those booms rigged out.

Could have lowered a lot of rigging on deck perhaps


I was in a 35' sailboat racing on Long Island sound wind about 40knots
downwind 5-8' waves all was well surfing down the waves.


Until the tiller snapped, we broached mast in the water, cut the halyards dropping the sails, boat popped right back up.


Couldn't happen without a big heavy keel

 

[MurrayM]

The vessel appeared to be in trouble, which is probably why the other vessel was shadowing it. Was it a loose hatch and flooding which caused the list to port? Damaged rudder or steering system which reduced response time? Reduced power in the main engine limiting control?

Would be interesting if there was a link to an official report. I'll bet there were two or more contributing factors, besides the storm, which caused the sinking.

 

[dhays]

That purse seiner looks a lot like the boats that have traditionally been home based in my home port, Gig Harbor.

I’ve seen the footage before, but not with the commentary. It was informative. I too think that there was a tendency to list to port. Easily could be the wind but I wonder if their catch in the hold may have shifted as well?

Is it possible they also had trouble with their engine giving them reduced power? That would limit their rudder effectiveness with those following waves.

When I stupidly got caught out in a gale with wind and tide going opposite directions in Admiralty Inlet, I decided to not turn down wide and deal with aft quartering seas but turned upwind to accept the quartering seas on the bow. It made for a very long and rough time before I could get into a lea area, but I felt more comfortable having my rudder be more effective when it counts.

 

[psneeld]

I actually thought the boat was riding fine up until that last frame ..

I wasn't really paying close attention cuz it was riding pretty well ..

I mean I've been out there when it's way worse than that on some vessels....... to make any assumptions on whether or not that boat should have remained upright is only a guess .

The rolling she was doing throughout the video before she rolled over did not suggest to me she was in any sort of trouble.

 

[78puget-trawler]

As Dave notes, its a seiner,, a "Kodiak" seiner I believe, not a trawler. These boats don't draw much water.
A couple of things. I have seen the footage many times and have spent time in that area on larger boats, tugs with tows. Noted above, too much weight up high, put the block on deck and lash it down, lower the boom, lash it down. Any weight that can be moved down, move it. He could have ditched the seine skiff on the stern, that's a lot of weight there and he might have had quicker, less sluggish return from each roll.


Should have turned into the sea and hove to. He would have rode it out safely in all likelihood. That's pretty snotty weather for a relatively small boat running before it.

 

[Capn_Q]

Seiner, not a trawler. Almost happened to me in '98

As mentioned above, this is a purse seiner, not a trawler. In essence, it lacks a keel on which to catch the seine, making the aft hull flat and prone to being pushed around. I'm surprised the video does not point out that their deck-loaded skiff had shifted, upsetting the balance of the boat to port. This is a common heavy weather and traveling tactic to reduce drag.


I fished out of Kodiak on a number of seiners in the 90's. One, the F/V Evanick, was a 50' LeClerq. I had been a deckhand and skiffman for four years, and in '98 was set to take control as my Skipper, Carl Van Valkenberg (RIP) was having a baby with his new wife. Two weeks before I was to arrive, Carl was headed to Bristol Bay for herring. Off Foggy Cape, they experienced 8' confused seas, which also caused the skiff to shift on deck. They broached just like the boat in this video, but the nearest boat was 8 miles away. No one was recovered and the boat was scuttled by the CG. If I had not been wrapping up a college semester, I would have been aboard. That was my last year fishing, as I found a berth on Carl's best friends boat.

 

[Overserved66]

Don't know a lot about blue water fishing boats but it appeared that boat was having steering or power issues. Likely why it was being shadowed by the vessel that took the video. And by the comments from the men taking the video, they didn't seem too surprised when the boat broached. Through it all it seemed odd that they would continue to try to run before the wind, unless they had no choice due to some issue. It seemed like they tried a couple of times to turn upwind but couldn't seem to get it done.

 

[Blissboat]

As mentioned above, this is a purse seiner, not a trawler. In essence, it lacks a keel on which to catch the seine, making the aft hull flat and prone to being pushed around. I'm surprised the video does not point out that their deck-loaded skiff had shifted, upsetting the balance of the boat to port. This is a common heavy weather and traveling tactic to reduce drag.


I fished out of Kodiak on a number of seiners in the 90's. One, the F/V Evanick, was a 50' LeClerq. I had been a deckhand and skiffman for four years, and in '98 was set to take control as my Skipper, Carl Van Valkenberg (RIP) was having a baby with his new wife. Two weeks before I was to arrive, Carl was headed to Bristol Bay for herring. Off Foggy Cape, they experienced 8' confused seas, which also caused the skiff to shift on deck. They broached just like the boat in this video, but the nearest boat was 8 miles away. No one was recovered and the boat was scuttled by the CG. If I had not been wrapping up a college semester, I would have been aboard. That was my last year fishing, as I found a berth on Carl's best friends boat.

Cap'n Q shares helpful info about this boat and its practices. I gather that he thinks the weight of the skiff accounts for that slight but persistent port list. Given that the skiff was deck-loaded to reduce drag while traveling, I wonder whether the crew might have considered pushing it off the stern, both to reduce weight on deck and to perhaps act as a drogue? Admittedly, wrangling the skiff over the side in those conditions would have been dangerous. Plus, the skipper might have feared risking loss of the skiff if it flooded and sank. On the other hand, I have towed a skiff in rotten conditions, before swells that caused it to surf up and ram the transom or try to overtake the bigger boat. Half expected to lose the damn thing, but was amazed at how well it stood up, hour after hour.

One more thing I'm curious about is why, in such heavy seas and conditions of tender stability, the crew chose not to rig-out the booms. I have no idea whether a purse seiner would employ paravanes, but with them or without, it seems intuitive that reducing weight aloft might have improved things. Was there concern about a boom digging into a swell?

 

[Mako]

Perhaps it’s just the skeptic in me, but I’m not convinced about the conclusions being drawn. I think of this as more of a marketing video. There’s probably a lot that can be learned by this incident, but we really have no true information here. A copy of the detailed CG investigation would be helpful.

 

[Art]

Interesting, sad video. Descriptions at end are well put.

That said, I have to ask... was that boat some how carrying too heavy a load on port side? Although waves seemed to be often pushing the boat to a port list; it also seems the boat was tending to "self" list too much to port.

In confused seas like that even a relatively small maladjustment of trim weight can make a big difference to COG and therefore remaining upright.

 

[oscar]

Head in to it.... minimum speed just enough to have steerage, you should stay almost in place. Keep rudder and screw in the water. Use power as needed. Ride it out. Yeah, may take a while. When the waves are (almost) as tall as the boat is long a broach is never far away. No keel, lot of weight aloft, stern in the air, forefoot digging in, falling off the wave tripping over her own feet........ bad plan.

But, easy to say from where I'm sitting.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I recall that VHS tape being played during stability training. It made me queasy to see it then and still does today.

For another take on what / why read this article.

Fishing boat capsizes, sinks

 

[hfoster]

In studying the video there is one issue that they did not pointed out in the video.

This vessel was hit by a “Three Sisters wave” That is what we call them here on the Great Lakes.

If you stop the video at the 6:25 mark, you can cleanly see the 3 waves.

You have 3 waves heading towards the vessel from three different directions. One coming from the starboard bow quart. One coming from the starboard aft and one coming from the port aft.

As the video starts to fade, you can see the aft of the vessel starting to be lifted out of the water as these 3 waves start to hit the vessel.

Now the video is cut from there and shows other frames. For what reason I have no clue why they did that.

However if you stop the video at the 7:17 mark, you can clearly see the vessels aft is high in the water! This is from the 3 waves hitting the vessel. The two aft waves and the one starboard bow quart wave.

Also in the same frame you can see the starboard mid beam wave is already formed and heading toward the vessel. As the video rolls you can see the 4th wave capsize the vessel.

Even if this vessel was sound, (the 3 sisters waves) when they hit the vessel took all control of the vessel away from the Capt by lifting the vessel’s aft out of the water! The 4th wave simply capsized the vessel when the vessel was at its weakest.

There was nothing at that point and time the Capt. or the crew could have done. They were doomed by the 3 Sisters waves.

The one thing I would say I would have been doing different if I were the Capt of the vessel. I would not have been heading in the direction he was. If you watch the video, most waves are coming from the starboard side throughout the video. He should have been heading into those waves at a 15 degree angle. Why he was not is anyone’s guess.

If the vessel would have been heading into those waves, the 3 Sisters waves would not have doomed the vessel.

I have been on Ore Boats that have been hit by 3 Sisters waves, and I can tell you, it is not a feeling anyone wants to know.

Just my 2 cent.

Cheers,

H.

 

[Art]

In studying the video there is one issue that they did not pointed out in the video.

This vessel was hit by a “Three Sisters wave” That is what we call them here on the Great Lakes.

If you stop the video at the 6:25 mark, you can cleanly see the 3 waves.

You have 3 waves heading towards the vessel from three different directions. One coming from the starboard bow quart. One coming from the starboard aft and one coming from the port aft.

As the video starts to fade, you can see the aft of the vessel starting to be lifted out of the water as these 3 waves start to hit the vessel.

Now the video is cut from there and shows other frames. For what reason I have no glue why they did that.

However if you stop the video at the 7:17 mark, you can clearly see the vessels aft is high in the water! This is from the 3 waves hitting the vessel. The two aft waves and the one starboard bow quart wave.

Also in the same frame you can see the starboard mid beam wave is already formed and heading toward the vessel. As the video rolls you can see the 4th wave capsize the vessel.

Even if this vessel was sound, (the 3 sisters waves) when the hit the vessel took all control of the vessel away from the Capt by lifting the vessel’s aft out of the water! The 4th wave simply capsized the vessel when the vessel was at its weakest.

There was nothing at that point and time the Capt. or the crew could have done. They were doomed by the 3 Sisters waves.

The one thing I would say I would have been doing different if I were the Capt of the vessel. I would not have been head in the direction he was. If you watch the video, most waves are coming from the starboard side throughout the video. He should have been heading into those waves at a 15 degree angle. Why he was not is anyone’s guess.

If the vessel would have been heading into those waves, the 3 Sisters waves would not have doomed the vessel.

I have been on Ore Boats that have been hit by 3 Sisters waves, and I can tell you, it is not a feeling anyone wants to know.

Just my 2 cent.

Cheers,

H.

Sounds like 25 cents to me!!

My well versed, seagoing, winning Irish pugilist friend from nearly the bare knuckle days of yore! And, of course... bare knuckle street fighting was a blast too!!

Tiz a good account you make re 3 sisters ganging up on the boat's aft quarters and therefore relinquishing the captain to "0" rudder or power control. As well as... what the heck was he/she thinking with that direction of running with the waves, not into them at slight angle, in that condition of seas?

Something I mentioned back a ways on a post... was that... the boat seemed to be "self listing" to port in most of the video. Then I read [in bottom of a link provided on a latter post] that the chain broke loose on the big tender in rear deck at same time as the capsizing waves hit. That ol' fisher boat was then for sure heading for Davy's Locker!

Glad to hear all lived; one minor injury.

The Sea Goddess will sink a lot of em... but we keep on building em... and, making Luv to em too!

Cheers!

Art

 

[hfoster]

Sounds like 25 cents to me!!

My well versed, seagoing, winning Irish pugilist friend from nearly the bare knuckle days of your! And, of course... bare knuckle street fighting was a blast too!!

Tiz a good account you make re 3 sisters ganging up on the boat's aft quarters and therefore relinquishing the captain to "0" rudder or power control. As well as... what the heck was he/she thinking with that direction of running with the waves, not into them at slight angle, in that condition of seas?

Something I mentioned back a ways on a post... was that... the boat seemed to be "self listing" to port in most of the video. Then I read [in bottom of a link provided on a latter post] that the chain broke loose on the big tender in rear deck at same time as the capsizing waves hit. That ol' fisher boat was then for sure heading for Davy's Locker!

Glad to hear all lived; one minor injury.

The Sea Goddess will sink a lot of em... but we keep on building em... and, making Luv to em too!

Cheers!

Art

Art me two fisted hard bawling Irish Bro.

I agree the vessel seemed to be listing to the port in most of the video. However was the list to the port do to the waves pounding the starboard side of the vessel? Or do to cargo shift or taking on water? Remember Mate. The power of waves is mostly under the water. We only see the power on top of the water.

In my study of the video, it would have made no differences even if the vessel was sound. The 3 Sisters waves made the vessel weak by lifting the aft out of the water. The top power as well as the underwater power of the 4th wave was too great for the vessel to withstand after the aft was lifted out of the water.

If the vessel would have been heading into the waves, the power of the 3 Sister waves would not have impacted the vessel in the way it did (Lifting the vessel’s aft out of the water) and the 4th wave would not have been able to capsize the vessel.

Keep those two fist hammering away Me Irish Mate.

Cheers.

H.

 

[dhays]

I recall that VHS tape being played during stability training. It made me queasy to see it then and still does today.

For another take on what / why read this article.

Fishing boat capsizes, sinks

Very interesting. Of course we don’t know if the information is accurate, but at least to my inexperienced eye, it seems to make sense and goes along with what I think I am seeing in the video.

 

[koliver]

Very interesting. Of course we don’t know if the information is accurate, but at least to my inexperienced eye, it seems to make sense and goes along with what I think I am seeing in the video.

Bear in mind that the skiffs those seiners carry are usually 20'+ and powered by a Yanmar of considerable weight. WiIh an empty hold, the skiff weight shifting on deck will affect trim a significant amount.

As for paravanes, that boat, like most seiners, wasn't equipped with any that I could see.

That is a fairly typical seiner, converted to longline fishing, but built on a deep draft fishing hull, heavy and seaworthy. She had probably done far worse weather than that many times before, but the empty hull and shifting skiff, together with an inexperienced hand at the helm, using Autopilot in such conditions, created the "perfect storm" of conditions that caused her to broach.

 

[MurrayM]

Even if there was no loss of life in the sinking, I think it was in bad taste to post this edited video without "the rest of the story" to illustrate (although not stated...it's implied) why he thinks his boat is safer.

Blocking comments was cowardly.

 

[dhrowe]

I followed the link that portage posted and gee wiz. From my reading factor maybe #1. Owner wanted boat moved. Most of rest of fishermen stayed until wx passed..

Lite loaded and failed to get more weight down.

Rookie with boat on auto pilot.

 

[MYTraveler]

Head in to it.... minimum speed just enough to have steerage, you should stay almost in place. Keep rudder and screw in the water. Use power as needed. Ride it out. Yeah, may take a while. When the waves are (almost) as tall as the boat is long a broach is never far away. No keel, lot of weight aloft, stern in the air, forefoot digging in, falling off the wave tripping over her own feet........ bad plan.

But, easy to say from where I'm sitting.

I hope never to get caught in anything even remotely close to that, but my west coast travels expose me to the possibility of having to travel 200 - 300 miles in bad / worsening conditions. My plan, and I invite criticism / commentary, is to throw out the sea anchor long before I need to worry about controlling the boat's stability.

So, my question is, would an appropriate sea anchor have saved that vessel?