Fuel Additive

[Slowboat 37]

I am going to get fuel this weekend but I won't be filling up. So I am wondering, can you add too much Stabil or other products to treat the fuel against water or algae etc. What would be the side effects?

 

[Marin]

The additives we use have amount per x-gallons charts on the bottles. So it's pretty easy to determine how much to use for any amount of fuel we may be adding.

Depending on the additive, it can be important to use the correct amount and not more. Again with the additives we use, it states this on the bottles.

 

[jeffnick]

My diesel got Pri-D and Pri-ocide.

PRI Advanced Fuel Treatments

 

[BruceK]

You can be confident most additive makers will advise adding as much as they can. I don`t know about the product Stabil. The dose of a product I currently use, which I think includes an emulsifier, can be doubled if water is known to be present but I have also been told if you overdo it there is a gelling effect.
Another recommendation is to mix the additive into say 10L of fuel and put that in before commencing the main fill,to get good mixing. That might help when you next fill to catch up, but as I understood my diesel guy,the best thing is to add the right proportionate amount of additive each fill.

 

[FF]

If the goal is to kill the bugs in the water in the fuel you purchase use a different type of bug killer on each fillup.

 

[rwidman]

I am going to get fuel this weekend but I won't be filling up. So I am wondering, can you add too much Stabil or other products to treat the fuel against water or algae etc. What would be the side effects?

Why would you not follow the instructions on the bottle? It seems simple to me.

 

[timjet]

Anybody use Valvetech? It is in the diesel and gas at our marina.

 

[rwidman]

Anybody use Valvetech? It is in the diesel and gas at our marina.

I generally use whatever is available wherever I stop for fuel. Sometimes this is Valvetech, sometimes not. I don't go out of my way for a specific brand of fuel.

 

[Tom.B]

I was told by the guy that clean my fuel cells (and has been in the fuel biz for several decades), to not use ANY fuel additives. Just put enough fuel in your tanks to use in three or four months. You don't always know what the fuel storage yards are using as additives and what you add may do more harm than good. I, for one, am going to take his word for it.

Tom-

 

[psneeld]

I was told by the guy that clean my fuel cells (and has been in the fuel biz for several decades), to not use ANY fuel additives. Just put enough fuel in your tanks to use in three or four months. You don't always know what the fuel storage yards are using as additives and what you add may do more harm than good. I, for one, am going to take his word for it.

Tom-

That's what I have been told also...and figured out for myself based on all the fuel issues I deal with as an assistance tower.

The only problem with that way of thinking...it works well for us local cruisers...but I can see where someone may fill up with more than 3-4 months worth of fuel and might want a biocide if in tropical waters...

I'm not completely sold on lubricity additives as there seems to be a split on the real need for them....

 

[rwidman]

I was told by the guy that clean my fuel cells (and has been in the fuel biz for several decades), to not use ANY fuel additives. Just put enough fuel in your tanks to use in three or four months. You don't always know what the fuel storage yards are using as additives and what you add may do more harm than good. I, for one, am going to take his word for it.

On the other hand, my boat's owner's manual recommends keeping the fuel tanks as full as possible to minimize the introduction of water due to condensation. That's a view shared by many experts.

So - you choose one or the other and hope for the best.

 

[Slowboat 37]

I do intend to follow the instructions, I was just curious what would happen if I miscalculated. I guess I would have to be way off to cause any lasting harm. Price of fuel right now is $4.19. in Seattle at the marina I'm going to.

 

[Phil Fill]

I do intend to follow the instructions, I was just curious what would happen if I miscalculated. I guess I would have to be way off to cause any lasting harm. Price of fuel right now is $4.19. in Seattle at the marina I'm going to.

The cheapest fuel is usually Kolvich just before the Locks. The also deliever home heating oil. Price is depending on the number of gallons and cash vrs card.

I use Power System 911 - red container sold at most automotive stores which prevenst gelling in cold weather, and absorbs water back into the fuel.

 

[jeffnick]

You guys have no imagination. There are many reasons to want to know the ramifications of over treatment.

Is is better to over treat or under treat?
I don't remember exactly how much fuel I put in and now that I'm back at the slip I wonder about the correct amount of additive.
I put in the additive but decided I really didn't want to fill up the tank after all.
I lost track of the amount of additive I was putting in.
I did it from memory and now that I reread the instructions I put in too much.
I don't want to measure, close enough is good enough - just want to make sure too much isn't going to hurt anything.
There was just a little left in the bottle and I don't want to save it or throw it out.

 

[Marin]

I'm not completely sold on lubricity additives as there seems to be a split on the real need for them....

The issue of lubricity becomes important if one has an old-generation, jerk-injection diesel like the Ford Lehman 120. The fuel injection pump plungers are lubricated in their bores by the fuel they are pumping to the injectors. (The lube oil in the lower part of the pump is there only to lube the drive mechanism of the pump.)

If the lubricity in the fuel is reduced, the plunger and bore wall surfaces are worn down faster, hastening the day the pump will need to be overhauled.

So based on the advice of our diesel shop and people we know in the marine diesel manufacturing industry, we use a lubricity additive in our fuel because they have all said that today's diesel, while it still has a degree of lubricity in it, does not have what it used to have and increasing the lubricity of the fuel is good for the injection pump and the injectors as well, which on our engine at least, also have moving parts inside them that are lubed by the fuel.

It is a constant topic of debate on boating forums with some stating what I have described and others claiming today's diesel has sufficient lubricity for the older engines. We've chosen to follow the advice we were given by people who work in the field of marine diesel manufacturing and repair and so use the lubricity additive in our fuel. I cannot state categorically that it has made a difference or extended the life of our injection system. But it certainly hasn't hurt it as our injection pumps don't leak down any more than they did when we bought the boat fourteen years/2000+ hours ago.

Whether fuel lubricity is as much a concern with newer engines or today's engines I have no idea. Presumably today's engines are designed to accommodate whatever the fuel characteristics are today. But, like my 1973 Land Rover that must have lead in the gasoline it burns or valve seat wear goes up dramatically, the FL120 was designed at a time when the lubricity in diesel fuel was quite high.

So we follow the advice to provide the engine with the lubricity its injection system requires. We believe what we've been told and that it helps. But if it doesn't, it certainly doesn't hurt.

 

[Tom.B]

That's interesting. Thanks Marin. I will call my diesel shop and see if they reco the same thing. What product do you use?

 

[Marin]

We use two, actually. One is the bug killer Biobor JF by Hammonds. The lubricity additive we use is also by Hammonds. It used to be called Select3 but the product name was changed to Biobor MD (Marine Diesel).

Hammonds has been around for a long time. You can read about their products on their site Biobor Fuel Additives

 

[psneeld]

The myth about partially empty tanks is pretty well established...I just left a tank COMPLTELY empty for 2 years...no water...the other was a 1/4 full....no water.

There are empty tanks lying around my bosses salvage yard...empty...no water.

The slightest amount that MAY he present is usually handled very nicely by a Racor.

There MAY be areas or situations where condensation MAY reach appreciable levels...haven't seen or heard of them yet...but will pass that along when I state the above if someone provides it.

I agree with trying to improve lubricity in untreated diesel (my marina "claims" to have Valvetech ) just not sure about most additives as many claim a long list of improvements but ultimately independent testing has shown them to decrease lubricity.

Wish there was a biodiesel place close by...it usually gets good ratings as a small percentage additive.

 

[Phil Fill]

For 15+ year the fullest the 3 tanks have been is maybe ½ full. The middle tank I open and repair was empty for 5+ years with no water/moisture. So I think having the tanks full is a bunch of punk. Also in the color climates algae/bugs are not a big issue. I know of boats that have diesel that is 5+ years old with no algae/bugs.

Anyway, no water/moisture no algae/bugs.

Also added Power System Supplement before new diesel is taken on. But my main concern is moisture/water.

 

[Marin]

....as many claim a long list of improvements but ultimately independent testing has shown them to decrease lubricity.

.

Not the studies I have seen, including one posted to this forum a number of years ago. Most of the "name brand" additives work as advertised although the amount of lubricity they add varies.

However there were a small number that did, in fact, reduce lubricity. The absolute worst performer on the studies, to the point of being identified as an additive that could potentially damage injection systems, was Marvel Mystery Oil. It's lubricity REDUCTION factor was impressive although I don't remember the figures from the various studies.

 

[El Sea]

FWIW:

Been reported that 'bugs' build up a resistance to bio-cides just like when one takes too much antibiotics.

Most fuel additives have a shelf life once opened, sometimes one year.

 

[sunchaser]

There two types of needs here.

NEED ONE
Assuming you have clean tanks and buy good fuel (that already has been tested to insure specified additives included) you have NO need for additives

NEED TWO
The additive sellers have GREAT need for you to buy their product or they go out of business. This TF thread is great advertising for them.

There are lots of good arms length studies and articles on this subject. One for sure I remember from PMM last year is if you are buying Valvetech diesel, you have all the additives you will ever need - whether added by the refiner, as they all do, or additionally juiced up by Valvetech.

 

[caltexflanc]

Why not just follow the engine manufacturer's rec? Detroit Diesel does not see the need for additives for their 2 stroke engines so will not explicitly endorse their use. They only recommend Biobor if the boat is going to be laid up for a long period of time. I have been using Valvetech for a few years now only because that is what the two fuel docks, including our home slip use. Really haven't noticed any difference in how long the filters can go, smoke, running, etc. The docks are high turnover, which I always look for when cruising, I think that makes the biggest difference. One reason I'd use a truck service when I could.

 

[Marin]

There two types of needs here.

NEED ONE
Assuming you have clean tanks and buy good fuel (that already has been tested to insure specified additives included) you have NO need for additives.

I would like to give that some credibility if it weren't for the fact that EVERY professional diesel shop person and person in the marine diesel manufactuing industry that I've talked about this over the last 14 years has advised us differently for our engines.

Even a couple of people in the fuel industry--- one the proprietor of the fuel dock in our marina--- have told us that we should be using a lubricity additive in our engines given today's diesel fuel. The fuel dock owner said the fuel he gets does not have the optimum lubricity for older engines like ours. He didn't try to sell us the additive his fuel supplier offers because he said he feels it's not as good as some of the others.

Now I've not run into any engine folks who have said, "This FL120 injection pump would not have worn out so fast and needed a rebuild so soon if the owner had used a lubricity additive."

But there is just too much credible information for the need to improve the lubricity of today's diesel fuel in the case of the jerk-injection pumps on our engines to ignore it.

In the case of more modern engines or engines with a different type of injection system, I have no idea how critical fuel lubricity is to them and if today's fuel satisfies that requirement.

 

[Craig Schreck]

The issue of adding a fuel lubricity product to your fuel tank is some what dependent on where you live, I can only talk about Atlantic east coast cause that's the bulk of the fuels we sample and test, The EMA < eng mans assoc > have a lubricity standard called HFRR, The min # is 460 HFRR, The good old high sulfur pre 2005 fuels were Diesel #2 350/390 HFRR Those days are gone, The low sulfur we have seen after 2005 has been 390/500 HFRR and now for Ultra low sulfur 600/800 HFRR , Note... the higher the # the lower the lubricity, The good news is we have not seen any Ultra low diesel for marine fuels yet on the east coast & most of the fuels tested have been under 460 HFRR. There are some engines that will require some form additive in the future when the marine industry must comply, It seems to me that most people are just selling extra protection that may not be needed, Its a easy sell We recommend for long term storage tanks should be empty and cleaned before use, Good topic fellas

 

[crazyguamboy]

My brother, a motor pool sarge in the US Army, said the only reason one would use a fuel additive is if the engine sits dormant for awhile. The additives help keep the the lines clear and the moving parts lubed. If you run the boat once a week or every other week, then an additive wouldn't be that necessary. Of course, he was talking as a landlubber, and not a sailor. But I sort of agree with that logic.

 

[Tidahapah]

I use a biocide to treat my fuel (mainly Tectron)and have done all along. I rotate another brand in every 3rd or 4 th fill. ( I allways fill my tanks especially in our sub tropical climate and usually I am going to burn it)
Most commercial ships that I have been on have treated their fuel (even heavy FO) with a biocide as bugs were rampant here in Aus for many years. You don't find this as common any more unless there has been a recent contamination with salt water or other contaminant.
About 6/7 years ago the sulphur content of our MDO and ADO was lowered to the ulltr low levels. At this time I had the Fiat 8210 in the boat and had to get the fuel pump rebuilt due to all the seals and O rings leaking.

PS as I typed this an add for Fueltreat Biocide (as recommended by BP)
appeared at the top of the screen.

Cheers
Benn

 

[RickB]

The EMA < eng mans assoc > have a lubricity standard called HFRR, The min # is 460 HFRR,

HFRR is not a standard. HFRR means High Frequency Reciprocating Rig and is the machine used to test the lubricating quality of fuel oil.

"HFRR and SLBOCLE are two methods for evaluating diesel fuel Lubricity. HFRR is capable of rubbing a steel ball loaded with 200 g mass against a stationary steel disk completely submerged in a test fuel at 60 C. The apparatus uses a 1-mm stroke length at a frequency of 50 Hz for 75 min. After 75 minutes of test time, the ball is removed from the vibrator arm and cleaned. The dimension of the major and minor axes of the wear scar are measured under a microscope and recorded as HFRR wear scar diameter. Higher the lubricity smaller the wear scar diameter."

The fuel sold in the US meets or exceeds ASTM D975 specifications which, since 2004, include the lubricity standard ASTM D6079.

European standards (described in the link below) call for a higher lubricity standard than the US. That doesn't mean our fuel will wear out your engine, it is the fuel all new engines are designed to use and provides adequate lubrication for older engines.


http://www.globaldenso.com/en/topics/files/120730common_position_paper.pdf

Note that nearly every quote and anecdotal reference includes the word "feel" when suggesting that a lubricity additive should be used. The speaker "feels" that better life may be obtained, they "feel" that it is too risky not to purchase a bottle of magic sauce to protect their 200 hour a year engine from fuel system wear.

 

[FF]

The simplest source of a lubricity additive is any brand of outboard oil made for a 2 stroke outboard.

One gal oil to 100 fuel might pay for itself over the years.

With a 60 year old engine I'm sure it was built for far different fuel oil specks.

However with DD injectors only about $40 ea. rebuilt , weather the savings is real in dollars is questionable.

And remember WATER is part of all fuel purchased , read the specs.

 

[timjet]

I do believe there is a need for a way to control the bugs that grow in the water at the bottom of the tank. The water is due to condensation that occurs more frequently in warm climates when the difference between the daytime and night time tank temperatures are greatest. When the boat is used this temp differential can be as much as 70 degrees.
There has been some lively dicussions on various forums about the wisdom of using Valvetech. There will never be consenses on whether it's better than a competing brand but the problem I see when it's mixed in the fuel you buy from the marina, is the consistency of the mix is left entirely up to the marina, ie they mix it not the distributor. So the yard manager tells the summer help teenager who was out drinking with his buddies last night to go mix the valvetech and you can see where the problem lies.