BaltimoreLurker
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Steel Away
- Thread starter BaltimoreLurker
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
North Pacific Guy
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Steel Away was owned by a former commodore of the Capital Yacht Club, with years of experience. She, husband, and son were aboard with three cats. Miriam said they saw water come aboard and then the boat simply fell on her side.*All ports on that side shattered.* All three were lucky to escape. Three cats aboard not so lucky.
FF
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If guesses are allowed ,
I would think the boat was running before the weather and the breeze was enough to lick up bigger waves in shallow water than the stern could fend off.
Filling the after deck possibly put the aft cabin doors under.
Since this is a day boat I doubt there was a foot high threshold or even water tight sliding doors.
Rain tight aint water tight.
The water going below would overwhelm most yacht grade bilge pumps easily.
GLUG
FF
I would think the boat was running before the weather and the breeze was enough to lick up bigger waves in shallow water than the stern could fend off.
Filling the after deck possibly put the aft cabin doors under.
Since this is a day boat I doubt there was a foot high threshold or even water tight sliding doors.
Rain tight aint water tight.
The water going below would overwhelm most yacht grade bilge pumps easily.
GLUG
FF
FF
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"hitting the starboard dripless stuffing box,"
Those units were always a crappy choice for a simple problem.
The huge bellows is supposed to be replaced with GREAT regularity , and now we learn there damage prone.
Guess a lazy guy like me will stick with the modern Goretex stuffing in a big old bronze box , or rudder setup.
Rather than take the risk , of these fearful installations , we simply used a remote cup for grease and flex hose on our 90/90 and if one heard the drip , or the bilge pump ever cycled a turn or two on the cup solved it till the next engine use.
We also mounted the Surettes inside the engine beds , so the Volvo would be crashing about loose before a batt set would.
Works for ME!
Those units were always a crappy choice for a simple problem.
The huge bellows is supposed to be replaced with GREAT regularity , and now we learn there damage prone.
Guess a lazy guy like me will stick with the modern Goretex stuffing in a big old bronze box , or rudder setup.
Rather than take the risk , of these fearful installations , we simply used a remote cup for grease and flex hose on our 90/90 and if one heard the drip , or the bilge pump ever cycled a turn or two on the cup solved it till the next engine use.
We also mounted the Surettes inside the engine beds , so the Volvo would be crashing about loose before a batt set would.
Works for ME!
Tidahapah
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Fred,
Where do you purchase the goretex packing.
I can not seem to be able to track it down here in Australia.
Who manufactures it, Chesterton or any of the major packing suppliers.
I'm an old steam boat man so havn't made my way to drip less stuffing boxes yet and not likely to either.
Benn
Where do you purchase the goretex packing.
I can not seem to be able to track it down here in Australia.
Who manufactures it, Chesterton or any of the major packing suppliers.
I'm an old steam boat man so havn't made my way to drip less stuffing boxes yet and not likely to either.
Benn
Keith
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OP
OP
BaltimoreLurker
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Yes siree, Bob!* Just reinforces my satisfaction of sticking with that old fashioned, low-tech and inexpensive packing gland.* But I will modernize up to the GFO fiber stuff.
KISS!
*
FF
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" Just reinforces my satisfaction of sticking with that old fashioned, low-tech and inexpensive packing gland. "
Folks that are willing to look at the more commercial gear ( and have the right configuration) can find a combo stuffing box and stern bearing.
We used them on the 90/90's and it was a delight to change one afternoon afloat in Georgetown Bahamas in about a half hour .
That's after the rings were pre cut to the correct length and angle with a piece of shaft and a razor blade.
With a 2 blade prop (more efficient than 3 blade) that works behind a deadwood the prop loading is very variable , so harder on shaft bearings than a 3-5 blade in clear water.
A corkscrew like tool removed all (17rings) but the last ring , and a slit in half the long way piece of* plastic pipe pushes the rings to seat.
While the usual cutlass bearing works fine (best in clear water) I am waiting for someone to build a strut bearing with the Goretex, a tide and a beach , or an annual repack would remove another hassle for owners.
On some boats (crappy) the rudder and shaft need to be renoved to change out the cuttlas.* UGH********** !
-- Edited by FF at 04:33, 2008-10-02
Folks that are willing to look at the more commercial gear ( and have the right configuration) can find a combo stuffing box and stern bearing.
We used them on the 90/90's and it was a delight to change one afternoon afloat in Georgetown Bahamas in about a half hour .
That's after the rings were pre cut to the correct length and angle with a piece of shaft and a razor blade.
With a 2 blade prop (more efficient than 3 blade) that works behind a deadwood the prop loading is very variable , so harder on shaft bearings than a 3-5 blade in clear water.
A corkscrew like tool removed all (17rings) but the last ring , and a slit in half the long way piece of* plastic pipe pushes the rings to seat.
While the usual cutlass bearing works fine (best in clear water) I am waiting for someone to build a strut bearing with the Goretex, a tide and a beach , or an annual repack would remove another hassle for owners.
On some boats (crappy) the rudder and shaft need to be renoved to change out the cuttlas.* UGH********** !
-- Edited by FF at 04:33, 2008-10-02
Libertarian
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I'm curious about the forensic investigation. How, I wonder, did they determine that the batteries came loose before the boat flopped on its side and went under? Intuitively, it seems that the motion of flopping over would be more likely to break a battery loose than bobbing along in 6-8 footers, especially in these particularly stable vessels.
I've been on the Chesapeake during big thunderstorms in our reasonably stable Connie but don't recall much more than a coffee cup being displaced in the galley, which is up.* The notion that a 165# battery in the ER could come completely loose and fly across to take out a stuffing box of any kind in anything but a "perfect storm" is beyond my comprehension.
On my boat, I've replaced the packing while the boat's in the water and the amount of water coming in while the packing is entirely out is easily within the capacity of one Rule 2000.* I suppose it's conceivable that they had no functioning bilge pumps, the battery attacked the stuffing box, and that's that.
* I guess we'll never really know...
I've been on the Chesapeake during big thunderstorms in our reasonably stable Connie but don't recall much more than a coffee cup being displaced in the galley, which is up.* The notion that a 165# battery in the ER could come completely loose and fly across to take out a stuffing box of any kind in anything but a "perfect storm" is beyond my comprehension.
On my boat, I've replaced the packing while the boat's in the water and the amount of water coming in while the packing is entirely out is easily within the capacity of one Rule 2000.* I suppose it's conceivable that they had no functioning bilge pumps, the battery attacked the stuffing box, and that's that.
* I guess we'll never really know...
Libertarian
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oldfishboat, does "I didn't see a high water alarm switch or breaker" mean "there was no high water alarm?"
As to the battery not being tied down properly, my reading of the latest version of the story (which does not come from the captain and owner of the vessal at the time of the sinking) is that the batteries were formerly*in boxes with nylon straps securing them. I ask you: which is more likely to cause a 165# battery to rip its way out of that secured box--the boat flipping on its side, then rolling in who-knows-how-many orientations while submerged, or bumping along in 6-8' seas in a particularly stable vessel?* Given that the engine room is quite low in the vessel relative to, say, the galley, where no dishes were reportedly displaced prior to the boat flopping over, it seems odd that the battery would jump free of its nylon bonds and attack the*dripless box.
Vinny, my current Connie has 2" shafts w/standard stuffing boxes.* Whether I have standard stuffing boxes or newfangled dripless ones, the amount of water that can flow in through the*space between the shaft and the shaft log is constant.* The design is such that the difference in diameter between the shaft log and the stuffing box sans packing is negligible.* Perhaps trollers are created differently, but on my boat a Rule 2000 can easily keep ahead of the flow through the stuffing box when all of the packing*and the nut is removed.* If I had a dripless box, the flow would be no more even if you removed it entirely.
I'm not suggesting that these observations make "the experts" wrong, but that their conclusions are not supported by my experiences with my own vessel(s).
-- Edited by Libertarian at 13:01, 2008-10-02
As to the battery not being tied down properly, my reading of the latest version of the story (which does not come from the captain and owner of the vessal at the time of the sinking) is that the batteries were formerly*in boxes with nylon straps securing them. I ask you: which is more likely to cause a 165# battery to rip its way out of that secured box--the boat flipping on its side, then rolling in who-knows-how-many orientations while submerged, or bumping along in 6-8' seas in a particularly stable vessel?* Given that the engine room is quite low in the vessel relative to, say, the galley, where no dishes were reportedly displaced prior to the boat flopping over, it seems odd that the battery would jump free of its nylon bonds and attack the*dripless box.
Vinny, my current Connie has 2" shafts w/standard stuffing boxes.* Whether I have standard stuffing boxes or newfangled dripless ones, the amount of water that can flow in through the*space between the shaft and the shaft log is constant.* The design is such that the difference in diameter between the shaft log and the stuffing box sans packing is negligible.* Perhaps trollers are created differently, but on my boat a Rule 2000 can easily keep ahead of the flow through the stuffing box when all of the packing*and the nut is removed.* If I had a dripless box, the flow would be no more even if you removed it entirely.
I'm not suggesting that these observations make "the experts" wrong, but that their conclusions are not supported by my experiences with my own vessel(s).
-- Edited by Libertarian at 13:01, 2008-10-02
Chris Foster
Senior Member
I know that if I pull back the bellows on my PSS seals (which the factory says to do a couple of times a year), it's quite a gusher that comes in.* Since it sprays all over the friggin' place, I've never held it back for more than a second to see what the real flow would be... but it sure looks unhealthy.
If you knew it was happening, you could probably get a towel wrapped tightly around it and get the flow to a manageable volume.* But my guess is that by the time you notice there's something wrong, you'd need to be able to hold your breath & see underwater while you were doing it.
If you knew it was happening, you could probably get a towel wrapped tightly around it and get the flow to a manageable volume.* But my guess is that by the time you notice there's something wrong, you'd need to be able to hold your breath & see underwater while you were doing it.
Libertarian
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Sounds like a good reason to avoid new sportfishers and trollers and stick to classic
The boat I'm refitting has 1.5" shafts and 2" bore for the cutlass bearings, leaving only 1/4" around the shaft for water to com in. On the stern end of the log, there is a cutlass bearing that fills the majority of that 1/4" space and a 3/4" hole drilled behind the cutlass bearing for water to circulate inside the tube. All told, there isn't much space for water to come gushing in. Also, the stuffing box is only at about 2' of depth. Perhaps these factors explain why pulling the packing doesn't cause a massive flood on my boat.
How's the setup on yours?
I'm still not convinced that an 8D would fly out of a box if dishes in the sink didn't budge prior to the boat going sideways.
-- Edited by Libertarian at 06:37, 2008-10-03
The boat I'm refitting has 1.5" shafts and 2" bore for the cutlass bearings, leaving only 1/4" around the shaft for water to com in. On the stern end of the log, there is a cutlass bearing that fills the majority of that 1/4" space and a 3/4" hole drilled behind the cutlass bearing for water to circulate inside the tube. All told, there isn't much space for water to come gushing in. Also, the stuffing box is only at about 2' of depth. Perhaps these factors explain why pulling the packing doesn't cause a massive flood on my boat.
How's the setup on yours?
I'm still not convinced that an 8D would fly out of a box if dishes in the sink didn't budge prior to the boat going sideways.
-- Edited by Libertarian at 06:37, 2008-10-03
Libertarian
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A better analogy, I think, would be if it was commonly claimed that we landed somebody on Jupiter before we'd even made the jump to the moon.
The 165# battery was, by my reading of the inference, inside a battery box that was strapped down (w/nylon? Surely not wet toilet paper...). The implication being that the battery ripped out the nylon and jumped out of the box...all while dishes were merely jangling (but not flying around the room) in the galley.
I'm also reminded of the old adage "follow the money." When the builder of a particular boat that sank in a storm is providing "facts" that are inconsistent with what the owner and captain during the sinking says, I'm inherently suspicious.
The 165# battery was, by my reading of the inference, inside a battery box that was strapped down (w/nylon? Surely not wet toilet paper...). The implication being that the battery ripped out the nylon and jumped out of the box...all while dishes were merely jangling (but not flying around the room) in the galley.
I'm also reminded of the old adage "follow the money." When the builder of a particular boat that sank in a storm is providing "facts" that are inconsistent with what the owner and captain during the sinking says, I'm inherently suspicious.
North Pacific Guy
Member
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Q,
I agree with your synopsis. Didn't another one of the same model sink in the bay under similar weather conditions within the last couple of years?
Donnie
I agree with your synopsis. Didn't another one of the same model sink in the bay under similar weather conditions within the last couple of years?
Donnie
Dun Wurkin
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JohnS
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Thanks, Dan.
I had been concerned about a Diesel Duck "just falling over", but my mental image did not include the addition of a full second story of cabin on such a boat.
JohnS
I had been concerned about a Diesel Duck "just falling over", but my mental image did not include the addition of a full second story of cabin on such a boat.
JohnS
Dun Wurkin
Newbie
Steel Away was not a Diesel Duck
Hi John,
Steel Away was not a Diesel Duck. Diesel Ducks are a George Buehler design.
Steel Away was a Florida Bay Coaster designed by Jay Benford.
John
Hi John,
Steel Away was not a Diesel Duck. Diesel Ducks are a George Buehler design.
Steel Away was a Florida Bay Coaster designed by Jay Benford.
John
"Top-heavy barge" was my first thought when I saw the picture.
I lived by the Magothy for a while. Thanks for the memories.
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That FL Bay Coaster is so un-seaworthy looking with the second story. Fair weather boating I imagine the doubled square feet is a great bang for the buck. Lake type Houseboat looking.
PM
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So top heavy. Then add not much of a keel, shallow draft, fairly narrow. I do believe it truly could have just rolled over.
I also don't believe I would step foot on such a vessel, even in calm water. It looks like it could roll over hanging in a sling.
pete
I also don't believe I would step foot on such a vessel, even in calm water. It looks like it could roll over hanging in a sling.
pete
Yes, and it looks to have a great deal of windage for a boat that size. Like the old paddle-wheelers.
ben2go
Guru
Yes and low windage. She's also shallow draft at 36 inches with max load. Mainly used on canals around Europe she's a sea going capable craft. Not an ocean crosser but capable of crossing the English Channel, weather permitting.
OldDan1943
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Yup, cut the top deck off and MAYBE leave enough for a pilot house.
With that second deck, I wonder how much ballast they put on the boat....
That second deck really screwed up the A/B ratio. I wonder where they put the engine and generator and A/C
I am guessing the CG has never seen nor inspected the boat.
A prime example on how not to modify a canal boat.
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