Articulating Rudder

[Cartouche]

We have a Mainship 390, and are wanting to install an articulating rudder, we are in Ontario Canada, anyone have any leads as to who sells and or manufactures them. Many thanks

 

[Comodave]

There is a thread on a Mainship 34 articulating rudder from 8/27/17 in the Mainship group. It may help you, or not...

 

[Cartouche]

Many thanks saw the clip, but does not help with where to buy, many thanks

 

[Comodave]

The company in the video is BEI, but I tried googling it and didn’t see a company. But several hits about people getting ARs from BEI.

 

[Cartouche]

Many thanks that is who I am trying to track down

 

[Comodave]

Found another thread titled torgue for articulated rudders. It is from 1/30/12 and is in the Maintenance and Systems - Electrical and Electronics and Navigation group.

 

[Comodave]

I think that BEI is Bayview Engineering in Washington state. Jamie Wells is supposed to be the owner.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Cartouche,
Have you considered just adding onto the TE of the existing rudder? Or rigging your rudder shaft and post for a wider swing?


How fast is your boat?

 

[Mako]

Simplest solution might be just adding a fishtail wedge

 

[syjos]

Deflector Marine Rudde in Nacelle, WA and Bayview Engineering in Oak Harbor, WA both make the articulating rudders. Deflector has been manufacturing these for years and build out of metal and plastics. Bayview is relatively new in the rudder market - around 10 years

Lowell Stambaugh from Deflectors Marine is a regular exhibitor at the Pacific Marine Expo held in Seattle and will be an exhibitor November 21-23, 2019. Their web site is dmr.one. The owner, Lowell is very knowledgeable and is quite the character. He is, I believe, an engineer and will talk you ear off. Make sure you listen because he will tell you everything to know about articulating rudders.

 

[syjos]

I've driven several boats; 2 pleasure and 1 commercial with articulating rudders.

They are nice to have. Allows singles to back straight and turn to either side in reverse. It does 180's and 360's in a smaller circle.

However, the cost of around $8,000 and up plus installation is tough to justify. I priced one about 15 years ago and have not checked recent prices. The articulating rudder is definitely an improvement but I don't know if it's an $8,000 improvement.

 

[Comodave]

I put a stern thruster on my boat a couple of years ago, cost around $4000. But I did the install myself. That may be a better value.

 

[mvweebles]

I was looking at an articulating rudder earlier this year to add to my Willard 36 displacement trawler which I am refitting. After many messages, I have decided on a fishtail modification of my existing rudder. I talked to several people and belive it will get 80% of the benefit with 20% of the cosfe/effort. Plus, not having a moving part below waterline is a good thing.

That said, if your heart is set on an articulating rudder, well, I tried the same folks on BC you note and did not receive info back. I also tried reaching pit to Dave Gerr, NA and author of Propellor Handbook. He wanted a consulting fee of course which was reasonable, but I ultimately decided to go a DIY route

 

[syjos]

I was looking at an articulating rudder earlier this year to add to my Willard 36 displacement trawler which I am refitting. After many messages, I have decided on a fishtail modification of my existing rudder. I talked to several people and belive it will get 80% of the benefit with 20% of the cosfe/effort. Plus, not having a moving part below waterline is a good thing.

That said, if your heart is set on an articulating rudder, well, I tried the same folks on BC you note and did not receive info back. I also tried reaching pit to Dave Gerr, NA and author of Propellor Handbook. He wanted a consulting fee of course which was reasonable, but I ultimately decided to go a DIY route

I'll be interested in the results when you complete the rudder modification.

 

[Cartouche]

No I have not interesting thought but would need some engineering assistance

 

[Cartouche]

Simplest solution might be just adding a fishtail wedge

What's a fishtale wedge, appreciate all suggestions

 

[Cartouche]

Deflector Marine Rudde in Nacelle, WA and Bayview Engineering in Oak Harbor, WA both make the articulating rudders. Deflector has been manufacturing these for years and build out of metal and plastics. Bayview is relatively new in the rudder market - around 10 years

Lowell Stambaugh from Deflectors Marine is a regular exhibitor at the Pacific Marine Expo held in Seattle and will be an exhibitor November 21-23, 2019. Their web site is dmr.one. The owner, Lowell is very knowledgeable and is quite the character. He is, I believe, an engineer and will talk you ear off. Make sure you listen because he will tell you everything to know about articulating rudders.

Much appreciated I am in eastern Canada on the shores of the st Lawrence river, and Lake Ontario. will see if I can do anything via the web

 

[Cartouche]

I put a stern thruster on my boat a couple of years ago, cost around $4000. But I did the install myself. That may be a better value.

Dave what stern thruster did you install, I am concerned about power requirements thus the reason for looking at an articulated rudder

 

[Cartouche]

I'll be interested in the results when you complete the rudder modification.

me to

 

[ben2go]

What's a fishtale wedge, appreciate all suggestions

It's a 90 degree angle mated to the rudder edge in a way to make it look like a fish tail when viewed from above.

 

[Xsbank]

Mine was done last haulout and this made a huge improvement in low-speed handling, did not affect cruise and cured a small vibration in the steering. Sorry, these photos are correct in my library.

 

[sean9c]

I've been curious and looked at articulating rudders several times. My conclusion has been that I'm only interested in the increased maneuverability for docking and an articulating rudder might provide what I'm looking for but a stern thruster will definitely provide what I'm looking for. Also the thruster would be cheaper. Never understood the question about power consumption on thrusters, you only use them for seconds and always with the engine on and alternator charging.

 

[Nomad Willy]

It’s all a mater of how much you have to spend and how big the problem is.

I have two bolt holes in my rudder horn. When I bought the boat the steering arm was attached to the outboard hole giving 30-35 degrees of rudder deflection w about 6 turns L-L at the helm. I attached the arm/rod to the inboard hole closer to the rudder shaft. Got 45 degrees of deflection and three turns L-L.

That made such a huge improvement in rudder effectiveness I can come out of my slip w full rudder at the helm and stay in gear throughout my 90 degree turn. With room to spare. I should add I usually back in. When other skippers are aboard Willy while making hard over turns close to other boats, pilings ext in close quarters they sometimes begin to grab controls. I actually gently pushed one guy away. He thought surely we were going to crash into the stern of the big seine boat just ahead.

I got lucky In several ways. Boat is always at less than 6.5 knots with a big rudder. The rudder, shoe and other related hardware is very stout HD equipment. Someone put the extra bolt hole in the horn in just the right place. And I’d just converted to hydraulic steering and went way overboard on skookum. Choose hose, pump and slave cylinder suitable for most 40’ boats.

Faster boats w lesser structure in their rudder system shouldn’t add to the TE of the rudder or increase the leverage at the horm and shaft. You may overpower the system while rushing down a good sized following sea, yawing too much and using full power and full rudder to keep from broaching. But a smaller bit of the above may be safe depending on how strong your rudder system is. Like having a strong shoe connected to the keel and to the bottom of the rudder is probably a big plus. The weakest link is what should get the attention. But for many slow trawlers the above may work as well for you as it did for me.

 

[klee wyck]

Picture of fish tail rudder on Libra. It is quite impressive to me how this can move the stern of a 65 ton boat laterally. In combination with a large hydraulic thruster in front, you can drive the boat sideways in direction of prop walk. A little tougher but still useful in the opposite direction.
I came to appreciate this more fully this Summer at the customs dock in Victoria Harbor. For those of you familiar with it, I was forced to the inside at low tide with about a foot of water under my keel in a very tight space. When leaving, I had to back up in two 90 degree turns wrapping around the Southwest end of the pier with spectators in very tight quarters.
I wanted to kiss that rudder.....

 

[mvweebles]

It is quite impressive to me how this can move the stern of a 65 ton boat laterally.....I wanted to kiss that rudder.....

Attached is the table of offsets for the team doing my fiberglass work in Ensenada Mexico (Niza Marine - good folks). I forget where I found the factors to make these calculations for my rudder, but this is what is being built. Note, there is a horizontal plate on the top and bottom to direct flow.

Originally, I inquired into articulating rudders as I know at least a couple Willards have one. One knowledgeable/experienced owner of not one but two Willards (one in SE Alaska, the other in Sea of Cortez) said "Pete, have you thought about a fishtail rudder?" So I did a bit of research and found several credible references similar to quote above from Klee Wyck. Relatively inexpensive modification. I own a slip and this will hopefully solve my fear of a particularly difficult configuration.

Fingers crossed - will update when complete!

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Attached is the table of offsets for the team doing my fiberglass work in Ensenada Mexico (Niza Marine - good folks). I forget where I found the factors to make these calculations for my rudder, but this is what is being built. Note, there is a horizontal plate on the top and bottom to direct flow.

Originally, I inquired into articulating rudders as I know at least a couple Willards have one. One knowledgeable/experienced owner of not one but two Willards (one in SE Alaska, the other in Sea of Cortez) said "Pete, have you thought about a fishtail rudder?" So I did a bit of research and found several credible references similar to quote above from Klee Wyck. Relatively inexpensive modification. I own a slip and this will hopefully solve my fear of a particularly difficult configuration.

Fingers crossed - will update when complete!

I think you will be happy with the FT rudder. Articulating is nice but more of a new construction thing as opposed to a refit item.

 

[Searios]

I have an articulated rudder on my Duck, It was installed during the build. I agree with the comments above - it's fantastic.

One thing not mentioned is that it reduces the autopilot working loads as the rudder deflection is very small.

 

[DDW]

I'm curious as to where the cost estimates for an articulating rudder are coming from. It is a pretty simple device, easily added to many rudders at least. Basically a trim tab with a lever on it. The $8K mentioned above implies 100 hours labor at $80 per - that is a very long time to do this simple job on a 40' ish trawler.

 

[ben2go]

I'm curious as to where the cost estimates for an articulating rudder are coming from. It is a pretty simple device, easily added to many rudders at least. Basically a trim tab with a lever on it. The $8K mentioned above implies 100 hours labor at $80 per - that is a very long time to do this simple job on a 40' ish trawler.

It could easily take that long if it's a composite rudder. Marine grade steel and aluminum are getting rather pricey as well. $80 per hour is a low rate in most areas.

 

[DDW]

It could easily take that long if it's a composite rudder. Marine grade steel and aluminum are getting rather pricey as well. $80 per hour is a low rate in most areas.

I had the carbon fiber rudder for my sailboat completely reskinned and reprofiled for about 1/4 that price. Way more work than adding a tab. If you are talking about a steel or aluminum rudder then it is that much easier.