Solar boating

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deckofficer

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OK folks, this is the 21st century, with current technology don't you think it is time to add solar boating to the mix? We have had fuel burning power and steam vessels for the last 150 years, wind driven sailboats for a couple thousand years, now it is time to move to the next form of power, the sun.

With the recent price drops of lithium batteries, the time has come for vessels capable of world wide cruising, harvesting and storing the sun's energy for propulsion and domestic needs. There are a number of early entries in this field....
Boat - SolarWave

transatlantic21: The world's first crossing of the Atlantic on a solar boat

And a TF member's foray
Island Pilot DSe Home Page

What are your thoughts of solar boating?
 
21st century-----just glad to be here. With my ass first hitting the sunlight in the first half of the last century, I don't have time to wait for solar to develop or get where I'm going. It will be good ole fossil fuels for me.
 
Moonstruck,

Fair enough. I'm just a 60 year old young whipper snapper that hopes to return to full time cruising again like I did in my late 30's, but hopefully without the sails.
 
With a solar plane having just flown from California to Arizona, my feeling is the technology is mature and affordable enough for a solar boat - a much easier feat. Like Moonstruck, I was born in the 40s and own a Sabre - Back Cove 26. Also a classic Donzi clone (read,"splash") 18 footer along with my solar boat. And there is no way to duplicate the style and performance of those fuel-driven boats with solar.

By the same token. a 10 speed bike doesn't do what a Triumph can. Nor a Leaf what deckifficer's hot rod does. (I understand a sleeper - actually my original Mini Cooper was one in its own right.)


What I don't understand is the dissing that seems to be such a standard reposte on this forum?


I'm not referring to you, MS, more those on another thread. By chiding your two boats, MS, you pretty much define your performance preferences. And I personally take no owner to task for his choices in boats. Right now, my Maas rowing shell most likely gets the most use of my boatyard full of craft. The slowest and most energy efficient but clog of only in a calm.


Shall we keep the ideas flourishing?
 
iPhone typo : replace "chiding" with "choosing". Sorry.
 
21st century-----just glad to be here. With my ass first hitting the sunlight in the first half of the last century, I don't have time to wait for solar to develop or get where I'm going. It will be good ole fossil fuels for me.
Ditto!
 
Reuben,

Since I'm the OP on this thread, and I've mentioned elsewhere on the forum that as an OP do not care about thread drift, you must give me the particulars on the original Mini sleeper you built, my imagination of what you might have done is running wild due to some of the things I've known you have done in the boating industry.

Slow is just right for me now in boating. I spent years crossing oceans at 19 kt burning over 100 tons per day of fuel, now for myself, 4~6 kt is just perfect if the energy for it was harvested onboard from the sun. As with you, my electric kayak, the humble means of marine conveyance, is getting usage. For some really long trips I might outfit with solar.
 
Bob and Rueben (and others interested in solar propulsion),

First I'd like to say that the narrow mindedness sometimes displayed here by a very vocal few does not represent the opinions of the majority. Unfortunately their constant drum banging and opinionated bullying can overshaddow the inputs and interests of others and redirect the conversation. (They kind of remind me of the kids in the back of the high school class who just didn't get it because he was too busy shooting spit balls at others trying to learn!)

As a 55 year old boating enthusiast, I appear to be among the youngest on the block. :dance: :hide: Although I will probably never own a solar or hybrid propelled cruiser, I have long contemplated the same (especially diesel over electric like a locomotive). As a former aviation professional and trained engineer, I have a keen interest in emerging technologies in transportation. I welcome your posts and appreciate the conversations from the back of the room...listening. But I also tend to get lost sometimes with the ad nauseum insults and jabs, and have learned to scan over those major offenders and now hardly even notice their opinions.

I think Trawler Forum can could benefit from new category of Trawler Builders Forums to include Solar and Hybrid Propulsion. Then hopefully, the enthusiasts and others interested in the conversation can enjoy a purpose-slated forum without dissenter distractions.
 
Al,

Thank you for that post. It is why I started this thread. I don't think TF needs a sub category just for alternate propulsion as I would guess something less than 10% of forum members would have any interest in it now. But when visionaries like Reuben start producing boats that are seen in the boating community and media, interest will grow. I personally know it is very doable now, and look forward to a blue water cruiser that is spartan in its outfitting so it is affordable, very light displacement, efficient hulls supporting enough solar for 150 nm daily runs with lithium batteries. Taking the Aspen C90 with a modest 1500 watts of panels would give 65 nm daily runs.
 
I cetainly am following the progress of solar development. Even though I've worked in the fossil fuel game for most of my career, it's becoming clearly evident that we are coming to a dead end on that road.

The development of solar systems for marine transport is progressing every year. Still a long way to go - but that is precisely why it it so exciting.

Here's one new Australian company that is using dual purpose solar panels. Have a look.

Solar Sailor and Marjorie K - YouTube

The company CEO is former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke.
 
Bob,
As trucks and automobiles have made the transition but are not fully adopted, I think we will see Solar Boats evolve and become mainstream in the future. The fossil fuel "systems" have alot of years of engineering and attempts.
Before sun powered boats are common place, I think there will be lots of "hybrid" boats or retrofits. I have been looking to add solar panels to my boat to eliminate having to run the genset as frequently. This goes against some proven advice of running fossil fuel engines often to keep them in peak performance. I have been researching solar panels and trying to figure out how to get the most from them, understanding the shadows, wiring, controlers, etc. The pilot house roof is flat and a perfect location for panels - except for a railing around it, which will put shadows across the panels.
 
My Admiral and I will start full-time cruising in July, and likely cruise FL coastal the rest of the year, but in the spring 2014, we'll begin the loop. I'm preparing now. We'll probably end up with six, perhaps eight solar panels on our roof to cut down on gen-set usage. Once we've completed the loop, I can see us working with some 30ish de-masted sail cats like an Endeavour/Americat or Catfisher. I've been aboard both of these, and they are practical, roomy and reasonably efficient below 8 knots. If the price was right, I'd take the Aspen over all of them. For a practical R & D application, it would be hard to beat the Aspen for its single engine design. A dinghy kicker could be bracketed on the hull of any of these for get-home.
 
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HenryD, you are correct, you want to avoid shadows at all costs, but a way to minimize a shadow shutting down all output is the use of a MPPT controller and running your panels in series. Now that LiFePO4 cells have come down in price, you can size your solar for your needs and do away with the gen set all together. With the cycle life of these cells exceeding 3000 before losing only 20% of rated capacity, their cost per usable a-hr is lower than lead acid. They have huge charge acceptance, so if you go without a gen set and have a big alternator on your main engine, they can be charged at 3.0C instead of the 0.1C recommended for lead acid. A quiet way to go at an anchorage.
 
semi solar project
I am being lead into a semi solar project. I will not be able to run the prime mover with the sun but I hope to use solar for much of the domestic power requirements. The boat is used and came with a 10 kw DC generator. I am building a new hard top which can hold 300 ft2 of PV panels. Due to equipment and ballast modifications I need to add some weight so I plan to add a few tons of lead acids. In the past I have had pretty good success running small air conditioning units on cheap designated inverters, so well will have a few of these onboard. The ref/frez, hydraulic power pac , and most other systems are DC. The house AC in provider by a 3 kw inverter.
 
Solar just doesn't add up here on BC's north coast...not enough sunny days and probably too high in latitude.

Hydrogen supplementation to diesel might work though...

We have enough rainfall and high altitude lakes cascading from alpine to tide water (very steep and non fish bearing, which should ease the application process) that might one day generate power to make the hydrogen.

Might just be feasible, especially if used by ocean going freighters.
 
I see in the latest Car and Driver that Toyota and Honda are sticking with NiCads for the long run as they have found Li ion batteries not cost effective. NiCads seem to be lasting much longer than guesstimates from a decade ago with replacement costs dropping to the cost of a transmission rebuild. The Prius taxi fleet has really opened eyes regarding NiCad stamina.

A subtler theme is they are sticking with NiCads while shunning class action lawsuits such as would be the case with the well known Li battery fires. A misplaced floor mat design cost Toyota dearly in sales and class action suits and is not wanting to be repeated.

In the automotive business it seems Li batteries thus far are a toy for the 1%er wannabees ( the real 1%ers drive a reliable Prius) with Fisker gone and Tesla barely hanging on. What will drive Li batteries to common use in the auto fleets remains an unknown, maybe BMW will lead the way as their sticker costs can cover it.

Lest the issue be forgotten, I spend the majority of my cruising time too far North for solar power to be a viable theme. The time I've spent on the water in the Northeast US and Northern Europe (Norwegian Coast, Baltic and Sea of Bothnia) says the same.

Interestingly, with NZ building some very good boats, solar drive power has taken a back seat to increasingly efficient cat and mono hulls and smaller efficient diesels.

In the PNW, Sam Devlin and Tad Roberts have pretty well nailed attractive hull design and engine combinations for efficient and seaworthy vessels. Not to forget efficient designs from Northern Marine for offshore and American and Nordic Tugs for coastal cruising.

Sorry if this seems like thread creep, but based upon the above posts it is a wide open subject.
 
Then hopefully, the enthusiasts and others interested in the conversation can enjoy a purpose-slated forum without dissenter distractions.

Not a chance, some reality based discussion will likely occur. :hide:
 
This was sent to me as a PM and Robert gave me permission to post it and the response here.....

"Originally Posted by roguewave
Just wanted to ask your brief opinion on a boat. I commend you on the innovative approach to your car build, I am a car guy myself, I'd love to drive yours
My wife and I own a waterfront home on one of the best inland lakes in Texas (lake LBJ). We have about 100 ft of waterfront and I was pondering starting a little business and hiring a local skipper to operate it as a small tour business on our lake. No one is presently doing it and with Austin being an hour away the green aspect has followers. Here is the boat I was thinking about but I know nothing about electric power vessels. Solar panel on the roof would be great with all the dang sun we get.
Thoughts?
Thank you,
Robert
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/Duffy-Electric-Boat-Co.-30'-Herreshoff-Hybrid-2521046/Annapolis/MD/United-States#.UYb-Xmt5mSN"


Robert,

The Duffy is a nice little high end launch that could appeal to the folks of Austin. Very easy to operate so a paid crew member probably wouldn't be needed. A couple of items to remember, rough rule of thumb, to double your speed requires 8 times the energy and if the boat is used a lot, when the lead acid batteries are used up after 500 cycles you might want to consider LiFePO4 lithium cells. I use these and at the recent price drops from Balqon - Advanced Transportation Solution you will find in the long run they are much cheaper than lead acid due to 3000 cycles. I believe you could run the Duffy all day on batteries and just charge at your dock at night, keeping from having to put solar panels on it.

Boatgm

Your semi conversion less propulsion sounds good. The advantage of a DC gen set for charging batteries is that they are lighter than an AC gen set and are not rpm dependent for output frequency such as 50 or 60 Hertz. Lead acid in your case are OK because they would not be cycled deep or as much vs a propulsion bank. When you have a nice big inverter such as you have, a heavy AC gen set is redundant.
 
Bob and Rueben (and others interested in solar propulsion),

Then hopefully, the enthusiasts and others interested in the conversation can enjoy a purpose-slated forum without dissenter distractions.

Flywright, this was the original question in the first post.

"What are your thoughts of solar boating?"

That's pretty wide open.
 
Sunchaser,

For the Toyota and Honda hybrids, they don't need to store 25 Kw-hr of energy for the hybrid system so the battery's energy density isn't that important. For the Nissan Leaf, Ford Focus electric and the GM Spark and Volt, which are all electric drive, they use lithium. There are many forms of lithium, and some like LiFePO4 are safer than lead acid. I don't know why these large cells aren't used in the electric cars that are on the market today, maybe it is because they don't have has high of energy density as lithium ion cells, or their current production numbers are small when compared to the cylinder cells. My choice would to use a single series string to achieve the voltage and capacity requirements needed, not the series-parallel packs they are using now with the smaller cells.

Here are (4) 100 a-hr 3.2 volt LiFePO4 cells from Winston. Cell sizes range from 40 a-hr to 1000 a-hr. Reuben just installed (16) 1000 a-hr cells into his boat "Sunshine".


One of the 1000 a-hr cells.


And a family picture of what Winston has to offer.
 
....wonder what insurance companies think about large banks of owner installed lithium ion batteries on boats..
 
....wonder what insurance companies think about large banks of owner installed lithium ion batteries on boats..

They are not lithium ion but rather LiFePO4 chemistry, a big difference as to safety. Here is a 2800 post thread just on these cells for housebanks aboard your boat and that insurance question was answered, and they have no issues with LiFePO4 cells. LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
 
Bob - sorry to disappoint - my Mini was stock (purchased in Europe while in the Marines on a Med Cruise). Reason she was a sleeper is that she looked like a typical "econobox" and I drove her in the hills of Pennsylvania - turns and twists galore - I could keep up with my buddy's Corvette!
 
Thoughts on Solar Panels

Henry,

Since you already have a 12v house battery, you'll need an MPPT solar controller that charges 12v - there are a bunch on the market. We installed 2 each Outback Energy's 60 Amp versions since we had just about that much solar in each string. They have been running continuously since fall 2008. Their design is to use higher voltage from the PV array to charge a lower voltage battery. The controller is located near the main bus (48v in our case). To make sure we are ALWAYS using energy from the sun, even if there is charging from other sources, we keep the voltage of the controller set at the highest possible voltage for the battery - setting the shore charger a bit lower and the generator is lower still. Outback has a nice remote panel for the controller - but most likely yours will be in the engine room, so no remote is necessary.

We have Sun Power panels - 40 v nominal - we wire in pairs to 80 v nominal - then in parallel to the breaker and then to the controller. The pilot house roof of the GH47 is quite large - you may wish to relocate some of the antennas to prevent shadows.

PV panels generate heat and power output is decreased with increased heat. So, you'll want to mount up off the deck to allow for ventilation. We used standard roof-top rails for mounting the standard panels. In future new builds, I feel we will fabricate an FRP framework and remove the panel from it's aluminum frame to install directly to the FRP frame - the PV panel now will be the actual roof of the space below - If we use Sanyo HIT panels, they get up to 15% additional charging from BELOW - free energy, so to speak.

I have a free app on my iPhone - Sun Seeker - that tracks the sun through the day, giving you the altitude from the horizon at your location. If you subtract that number from 90, you now have the angular difference between plumb (to the PV panels) and the sun. Now take the cosine of this angle and you have the % of the rated amount for the panel - this will be the maximum possible energy the panel can use with the sun at that angle. Of course, there are losses all down the line - but, it's better than paying for the energy in generator use time and fuel.

The goal, most likely, will be to keep your refrigerator, lighting, pumps and entertainment running w/o add'l energy needs. Don't expect air conditioning from such a small area. Nor cooking. I forgot how much those side by side fridges we put in the GH47s use, but a quick visit to the website for the unit and you'll get the annual usage. That's going to be your greatest drain.

I have also found that Xantrex inverters have much more overhead than advertised. You can do a test to determine what your inverter is using when NOT putting out any AC. I recall something as high as 8 amps for the Xantrex?

I cannot recommend Outback's products too highly - both inverters and MPPT controllers. They really stand behind their products. Don't be put off that they are not marine units - I installed the household (non-sealed) ones since they put out more power. Just keep them dry.
 

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They are not lithium ion but rather LiFePO4 chemistry, a big difference as to safety. Here is a 2800 post thread just on these cells for housebanks aboard your boat and that insurance question was answered, and they have no issues with LiFePO4 cells. LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

I just tabbed through every second or third page in the above thread looking for insurance discussions. I found two or three. The typical response from LifePo4 enthusiasts was something like..."There's nothing in my policy that says you can't". I'm going to e-mail the big insurance carriers for a specific reading tomorrow.
 
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Are you considering a housebank of LiFePO4 cells? I didn't know you cruised that much to justify the costs, but you will be welcome in the "quiet" anchorages by not having to run the gen set with those cells.
 
I certainly want to encourage threads like this. Always good too think outside the box.
As a matter of passing interest, I got my licence in the first mini to ever make it to our city. My aunt owned it. That was Gisborne, NZ, 1962, I was 16, passed first time. It was a far cry from the Mini Coopers however. Just 850cc, and gearbox almost a crash box..synchro almost non-existent...fun tho. But I digress....

I enjoy going as green as I can, avoiding a motor gen by being only 12v away from the dock, and with 2 solar panels and the Airbreeze wind gen keeping the batts up out on the pick. However if I could afford it, I wouldn't mind trying one of these......

Greenline Boats Hybrid eyachts Australia

I went over the 33 at last years Sanctuary Cove Boat Show, and it was impressive what they have packed in, yet did I not feel too busy, and they had kept the weight down by all sorts of weight-saving innovations. I think the 40 would be even better. They might have one there in a couple of weeks at this years show. I'll report back with pics etc if so.
 
Pete,

They are an innovative boat builder. 1.3 Kw-hr from such a small built-in panel, but of interest to me is the panel employs forced air cooling. I've always known solar output drops as the sun heats up the panel, as I've watched my amp meter show a large increase on cold days that are cloudy but then clears. So I've wondered if forced air cooling would still be a plus in overall production after you subtract the power for the fan. I guess they proved that, otherwise it wouldn't be used. You know a hybrid boat is serious when they use lithium batteries.
 
OK folks, this is the 21st century, with current technology don't you think it is time to add solar boating to the mix?

Good question. Here's a real long opinion....

Solar certainly has promise. The entire roof of our new 787 assembly building in Charleston, SC is covered with solar panels. I'm told that the power generated from them when fed back into the grid makes a major big dent in the power bill for operating the assembly plant, which as you can imagine uses a LOT of power.

So I think solar, like wind, makes sense where it makes sense. In Charleston, it's sunny most of the time and even in the winter the days are reasonably long. Not so in the PNW, BC, SE Alaska, etc. as Tom pointed out. So solar is not very common here other than some folks off the grid use it to heat hot water. For electricity they tend to use generators.

I do not see the problem so much as a technological one but a practical one. Moving a boat around of the type most boaters still want these days takes a lot of power. One or two gas or diesel engines worth of power. And most boaters, from what I've been able to gather, want to go fast. Or at least reasonably fast. While there are those who say they like going slow (8 knots or less) I think in the overall market of boats that are sold worldwide, they are a very tiny proportion of buyers or potential buyers.

People like to go fast. They want to get places NOW, they want to communicate NOW. My job takes me all over the world and everywhere we go--- China, Brazil, the UK, Norway, Malta--- people are trying to go faster. Trains, cars, planes, boats, you name it. The only thing that stops people from going faster is cost, safety, or a lack of technology.

For every slow cruising boat owner I know or have met, I know or have met many times more people who have bought Bayliners or Sea Rays or Grady-Whites or ski boats or bass boats or some sort of relatively go-fast production boat. And as I think Art and others have pointed out a few times, the interest in slow cruising boats seems to be dying out with the generations that have them today. The relatively few twenty, thirty, and forty-somethings I know who are interested in boats to fish or take their young families cruising in all yearn for fast ones.

There are huge billboards in China promoting new oceanside developments that include manmade lagoons and docks for keeping a boat outside your condo-type home. Alongside the development billboards are the billboards promoting the boats their market research has shown their potential buyers want to own. They ALL show fast, sleek boats--- Sea Rays are predominant along with other fast runabout or express-cruiser type boats. No billboards for 8 knot plodders.

Qatar, now the world's richest nation, has boat dealers alongside the Ferrari and Lamborghini dealers at their new massive oceanside development, The Pearl. And the boats in the marina? All fast cruisers or express cruisers. No "efficient" cruisers like Nordic Tugs or whatever. And no sailboats. Not one.

And you're not going to be running your friends and family around at 20-plus knots in a sleek, Ferrari-like boat that's 40 or 50 or 70 feet long that's solar powered.

In my department there are eight (I think) very active boat owners. Of the eight, I am the only one with a slow, "efficient" boat.

(I am also the oldest one... perhaps another "indicator" of some kind although as I have stated in the past I absolutely abhor going slow in a boat and my wife is the same way. The only reason we put up with it is because we so far aren't willing to spend on boating the money it would take for us to have a go-fast cruising boat. We have other things to spend it on that are more important to us right now.)

The other boaters in my department have various models of Bayliner cruisers and a couple of them own Tollycraft 26s, a gas-powered inboard, V-drive fast cruiser.

So while the go slow, use as little energy as possible boaters are definitely out there, I don't think they're out there in enough numbers to make solar powered boats viable EXCEPT to the very few who are interested enough in the challenge to tinker around and come up with something workable on their own. Workable, but not producible to a market large enough to make it producible.

I think solar is a long, long way from even beginning to compete with fossil fuels when it comes to cars, boats, planes, etc.. We keep discovering more petroleum and gas reserves or new, more efficient ways to produce more petroleum-based fuels.

It's certainly a tantalizing windmill to tilt at--- harnessing the zero cost of the sun's energy. And as I say, there are applications that make economic sense, like our assembly plant roof.

But as a practical, marketable, producible source of energy, particularly for individual transportation devices like vehicles, boats, planes, etc., I think there are better options. Fuel cells, for example. We (Boeing) flew a fuel-cell powered plane in Spain a couple of years ago. Total success. Now nobody in the industry is pretending that fuel cells are going to power the 7X7 in the future. But we have them flying on test planes (737) to power various systems on the plane, thus removing those loads from the engines which means the engines can operate more efficiently. It's still a long way from being a production reality, but it has promise.

I think solar boats can and do work, and for the tinkerer like deckofficer and others it's an interesting and challenging objective. But I think only on a one-off basis.

But in the big picture I believe there are energy sources "out there" that we have not even realized exist, nor do we have the knowledge yet to discover them let alone make use of them, that eventually will push petroleum and solar and wind and fuel cells into the past.

After all, the Egyptians could have built a 777 instead of piling up rocks into pyramids. All the principles of mathematics, physics, chemisty, aerodynamics, metalurgy, you name it, existed when they were mucking about with boulders. All the principles, theorems and formulas for mining bauxite and smelting it into aluminum and forming it into airplane skins and all the rest of it existed when the Egyptians were doing their thing with rocks and papyrus. They've existed since time or earth or Mind or Spirit or whatever you believe in, began. Two and two has always equalled four.

So I am otimistic that the future holds some amazing things that we cannot even conceive of even though we humans always tend to think that the time we are living in is the absolute ultimate, it can't get any better than this. The Egyptians certainly felt that way, and if you'd have told them that one day man would be flying around the world willy nilly and driving over the ground at 70 mph and communicating with each other using little handheld glass panels they'd have put you inside one of their big pile of rocks.

So.... I think solar is an interesting stop along the way and in some applications it can prove useful but I don't think it's going to be the be-all, end-all solution to our energy requirements. Its applications are too limited-- geographically let alone performance-wise--- and the "bang for the buck" in terms of energy for the investment does not seem to be there and I tend to think never will be. Something else will come along to push it aside.

As far as the forum is concerned I think the suggestion to create a "bucket" for the alternative energy enthusiasts is a good one. It's the kind of subject that the proponents tend to get very, very detaily about as they debate the pros and cons of this sort of solar cell or that one and how to wire them up and what motors are the best and so on. Interesting to them, not so much I suspect to the majority of participants on forums like this who want to know why their diesels are putting out white smoke. :)
 
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