Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

Magneto said:

This is a very good point and one I have no knowledge of.
It also shapes the budget for the cost and length of the boat.
I'm expecting to pay out 200K per year for our fuel and operational cost.
So is that a realistic budget for a used 52 foot Trawler?

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Hopefully this thread from sail-centric sister-site Cruisers Forum.com comes through. The OP keeps a running tally of his cruise expenses. Your numbers will vary, perhaps widely. But he has a good handle on the categories. 39-months on a sailboat for about $3k/mo on average. Seems to be comfortable but not extravagant locations.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227931

ranger42c said:

You can add all that stuff to any boat. No need to buy new just to get it.

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Correct! That's what I've been doing for the last 4 years and am now up to date, electronically, anchoring, lighting, etc. Far less costly way to achieve a great boat with all the updated "wants."

DavidM said:

OK, here is my recommendation:

When you get tired of RVing and are ready for live aboard boating, first buy a Kady Krogen 39- see https://www.yachtworld.com/boats-for-sale/type-power/make-kadey-krogen/?length=39-39 or a Nordhavn 43- see https://www.yachtworld.com/boats-for-sale/make-nordhavn/?length=40-43. You can buy one of these for less than $500k and as little as $300K.

Both are solid cruisers, not as big as you ultimately want but if you can live on an RV you can live on one of these quite comfortably for a year or two. Other more coastal trawlers would also work, but by buying a smaller version of what you ultimately need for comfortable blue water cruising to anywhere in the world, you will develop your thoughts on what you really want long term.


I also chose these two boats so they would be less than twenty years old, so upgrading should be minimal. The older Nordhavn 40s may need significant upgrades as well as the Krogen 42s. You don't need to spend your time on upgrades. With your financial resources, buy something almost ready to go.


Then first do the Atlantic coast from Florida to Maine. That will take 6 months to a year depending on how much exploring you want to do. Then head over to the Bahamas for several months and then if you still have the blue water itch, head down to the Caribbean. Spend 6 mo to a year there.

You won't need a captain or crew for any of this. The first US part will let you develop large boating skills in an easy non threatening environment that I am sure you can handle with maybe a day or so of instruction on anchoring and boat handling around the dock. The Bahamas/Caribbean legs will let you develop self sufficient skills and particularly the Caribbean leg will give you a taste of blue water fun.

Then after a couple of years you will have a very good idea of what you want long term and the skills to go with it.


Finally, this plan gives you a low cost (well relatively) way to bail out if the live aboard cruising lifestyle doesn't suite you. Or maybe retreat to a US coastal and Bahamas lifestyle. Almost all TFers do the latter and enjoy the cruising in these waters. Also if you decide you don't want to do the world, but love the cruising lifestyle then there are lots of boats beyond the three that you originally mention that would work nicely.


David

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David’s advice is very good IMO. I had grand plans to eventually sail the Caribbean, but we can’t seem to get past the Bahamas ?.

And now I realize that’s just fine.

As I recall Tony's Fleming 65 Venture crossed the North Atlantic. Steve D'Antonio can speak to this better as he's logged many miles with Tony. Also, didn't Venture make it to the Galapegos?

I do not know enough to have a boat built. What I consider new is a brokerage boat which I most likely will not be purchasing as my first boat anyway. It is likely that we won't have a clear decision on our first boat purchase until after we spend our planned months in the Caribbean and Mediterranean on other peoples boats we charter. I like the idea of a slightly used boat that someone realized they couldn’t afford or a change in health or relationship status forces the sale and offers opportunity for people like me.

And David's advice is good. I have no problems fitting a used boat the way we want it.
I just don't want to get involved in an extreme make over.

I would charter each of the boats on your list for at least a week.

A week on each boat will allow you to evaluate ergonomics, handling, comfort etc. Seatrials and other short trips is not enough time for a proper evaluation.

Prior to that, take the training offered by the charter company or hire a boat handling instructor to gain proficiency in driving the boat. You will have to have training prior to taking out a charter boat.

A good training captain will, in addition to boat handling, go over boat systems, maintenance, etc to get you up to speed.

If your goal is the 50 to 70 foot boat and you can afford it, I'd buy it now. Buying a smaller boat to gain experience is a waste of time and resources. You will need time and money to repair or commission the smaller boat. And sell it when done with a possible loss. And do it again with the big boat.

If you chartered boats similar to the one you end up buying, after getting on the water training, it will be a lot easier to get the boat insured. Otherwise, the insurance company will insist on training.

I was a boat handling instructor and boating consultant. Now retired. I had many clients that bought 60 to 80 foot boats with no previous boating experience. With 40 to 60 hours of on the water training, the owners were able to competently handle the boat, understand systems and obtain insurance. Additional instruction on anchoring, locking etc was completed later after the client had cruised for a time on their own.

Welcome to the Forum. As you can see, we love to talk about boats and travels.

If you end up traveling the world and crossing oceans you will become part of the .01% component of the active boating community. There are a thousands of serious blue water cruisers that stay tied tied to the dock with owners who had big plans, but making it happen is a different thing all together. As a very content coastal cruiser, its not a club I will ever belong to so I admire anyone who actually does it.

Keep us posted as you progress through the process.

Magneto said:

I do not know enough to have a boat built. What I consider new is a brokerage boat which I most likely will not be purchasing as my first boat anyway. It is likely that we won't have a clear decision on our first boat purchase until after we spend our planned months in the Caribbean and Mediterranean on other peoples boats we charter. I like the idea of a slightly used boat that someone realized they couldn’t afford or a change in health or relationship status forces the sale and offers opportunity for people like me.

And David's advice is good. I have no problems fitting a used boat the way we want it.
I just don't want to get involved in an extreme make over.

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There ya go. Sounds like a good plan.

FWIW, brokerage boats are usually used/pre-owned, and the other category is dealer boats -- new, as for instance one of the several new models MarineMax or similar offer.

You might eventually see the phrase "Buy your third boat first" or something similar. We didn't do that, of course. Even if we won a major lottery tomorrow, not sure I could get our fourth boat right the first time... although I do often dream about 3-4 possible starting points (Flemings being one, but we don't intend to do any major crossings on anything less than about 400').

-Chris

mvweebles said:

TT - are the one who recently said, upon upgrade, that your N64 is a big small boat vs the N68 under construction is a small big boat? I believe you said the interior space difference was remarkable despite only a few extra feet of length. If this was you, your observations might be very helpful. BTW - fantastic post. Even though I'm far from the target demo on these boats, found your insight really enlightening. Thanks a merry Christmas

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Yes, the big small boat vs small big boat comment was me. It's not just space, but systems as well. Re space, someone brought it up earlier, but more beam has a remarkable impact of space. The N68 is only about 5-6' longer than an N60 (the name doesn't exactly represent it's length), but it's about 60% higher displacement which of course tracks overall size of the hull structure.

I would lean away from a fixed speed cruiser, typically 7 - 8 knots, and pick a Dashew type vessel that gives you a broader speed range/advantage .

The versatility gives you more options/flexibility in your globe trotting plans.

Magneto,
Welcome to the Forum, and Merry Christmas.
I have little to no experience either offshore or on boats as large as what you are considering. However, I have spent time on both KK's that my good friends have owned. They now own a KK 52 and previously owned a KK 44, both being great boats.
My advice is based mainly on my experience boating for over 15 years here in the Pacific Northwest (including Canada), and on what I consider "common sense". By the way, it does sound like you are going about this process in a well thought out manner.
As you do not have any (or very limited) experience owning, operating, or maintaining a boat such as you are contemplating, if I were you, I would not buy new. It sounds like you do not have the knowledge to make good decisions (to be able to truly meet your needs) during the build and commissioning processes. Like others have wisely stated, purchasing a relatively new "used" boat that has been well maintained and operated by a knowledgeable, careful owner will pay off in many ways (financial among them, but most importantly in time to "prepare" the boat for cruising your way). This advice is for the purchase of your "dream boat" for offshore cruising.


However, right now, based on your stated lack of cruising experience, I feel that you are not yet equipped to "know what you really want, need, or don't want" in a boat for such a purpose! I like the advice given earlier to take your time (at least a bit of it), and charter or buy a similar but smaller boat and cruise it for a year or so (coastal cruising) to get the feel for the lifestyle and the features that may prove to be important to you for achieving your goals. Boats such as the N43, KK 39 or KK 44 are examples of "smaller boats" you could learn on and gain experience in the lifestyle, operation, etc. All of those boats should be good from the point of view of future "resale" as well. You never know, even your goals may change as a result of the knowledge you gain by doing this.



If you do "graduate" to the larger, offshore boat, then I also advise to take your time. Get experience with the models you get serious about. Just a quick seatrial and observation may not be enough to truly understand all of the pros and cons of each brand/model in that size of a boat. They are very complicated and complex, with a multitude of options, systems, etc.
Anyway, take your time, and enjoy the entire process of learning the necessary skills and knowledge to achieve your goals (even if they change).

PacificBlue said:

I would lean away from a fixed speed cruiser, typically 7 - 8 knots, and pick a Dashew type vessel that gives you a broader speed range/advantage .

The versatility gives you more options/flexibility in your globe trotting plans.

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I'm a big fan of Dashew and his boats, but think they are optimized backwards to the way most people cruise. Even the most intrepid world cruisers who I know spend no more than 5% of their time on long passages. The other 95% is spent day tripping, at anchor, and in marinas.


To me, the FPB (and similarly inspired boats) are optimized for ocean crossing, and OK on a day to day basis. Where the Nordhavn and KK proposed by the OP are optimized for day to day use, yet also capable of ocean crossings. Personally I'd rather have a boat optimized for how I use it 95% of the time, rather than the 5% when I'm making a crossing.

twistedtree said:

I'm a big fan of Dashew and his boats, but think they are optimized backwards to the way most people cruise. Even the most intrepid world cruisers who I know spend no more than 5% of their time on long passages. The other 95% is spent day tripping, at anchor, and in marinas.


To me, the FPB (and similarly inspired boats) are optimized for ocean crossing, and OK on a day to day basis. Where the Nordhavn and KK proposed by the OP are optimized for day to day use, yet also capable of ocean crossings. Personally I'd rather have a boat optimized for how I use it 95% of the time, rather than the 5% when I'm making a crossing.

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I agree, having a comfortable "Home" is the number 1 priority for us. Many boats designed for open water crossings are not comfortable in port or anchor. Sailboats are a good example.

PacificBlue said:

I would lean away from a fixed speed cruiser, typically 7 - 8 knots, and pick a Dashew type vessel that gives you a broader speed range/advantage .

The versatility gives you more options/flexibility in your globe trotting plans.

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If I was looking at spending the coin the op is talking about I would go custom built alloy power cat.

Speed
Economy
Stability without the need of add-ons
Shallow draft
Ability to dry out for maintenance
Space.

Magneto said:

... I like the idea of a slightly used boat that someone realized they couldn’t afford or a change in health or relationship status forces the sale and offers opportunity for people like me...

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There may be other less noble reasons "a slightly used boat" is offered for sale.

BruceK said:

There may be other less noble reasons "a slightly used boat" is offered for sale.

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You mean like a chalk outline still visible in the dining room?

Magneto said:

You mean like a chalk outline still visible in the dining room?

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Could be,but I was thinking more of a boat that looks good but is really a crock of the proverbial. Or as "Southern Boater" once put it, "a well polished turd".

On your initial thread, I recommended the steel-hulled Diesel Ducks, and it looks like the DD 426 would meet your requirements. For example, they have a spacious aft master stateroom and their engine room is standup, amidships, w/ a workbench & vise. Single engine, but a sail rig can be spec'd for get-home & stabilization.


That is, if and when you decide you'd like to cross oceans. You can buy a new DD 462 for about $600k. Owner blogs I've read, describing their ocean passage experiences attest to their seaworthiness. Problems arose from various system issues, not the boat, itself.


I could go on, but refer you to these resources:


The Troller Yacht Book by George Buehler.


https://www.yachtworld.com/seahorsemarine/seahorsemarine/index.html For starters.


South Pacific Familyadventure 2008 Claes Brodin, a Swedish doctor, bought a new 462 at the China factory in 2007, and has been sailing it these past 12 years w/ family & friends. He recounts taking delivery in China and working w/ Seahorse Marine in commissioning it.


Archives-archives Jeff Appel's experience w/ his 462 began in 2014, also picking it up at the China factory and sailing it west to east across the Pacific to the US. He & a crew member had fun despite opposing currents and headwinds.


I offer this, not as a dealer or owner, as I am old & landlocked, but I have researched the DD and IF I could, I would buy the DD 462, hands down. I think it will check all your boxes when you're ready.

I must say that one of the best Christmas gifts was all the advice I received here today.

My wife Carol and I reread all the post and feel good about the direction we are going in. We love the lines and everything that comes with the Nordhavn including the geeky club. I’m just glad I have not heard back negative things on the one boat we liked the most.

Years ago I purchased a Jeep Rubicon. I soon discovered the geeky family I bought in to. Before I knew it I was off-roading in groups, posting on Jeep blogs and going where a lot of 4X4’s couldn’t. I feel Nordhavn is like a Jeep of the sea. Capable of going anywhere. Is it crazy to say this? I can compare the similarities. A jeep Rubicon is at home rock crawling on top of mountain like hills where a Land Rover can’t follow. That may be 5% of its use and the rest is driving around town and to work with bad gas millage. The Jeep club thing and activities with other Jeeps, add another 5%. I still would not trade it for a more comfortable vehicle with better gas millage. We call it a Jeep thing.

We are not committed to a Nordhavn but it is most certainly top of our list. It seems from my research and the comments here that this trawler is made for the open sea and extended crossings but sacrifice comfort space? Not sure about that but I don’t have the experience with this boat to comment on any of this. But as an engineer, I can see that this boat was designed to travel the world and not lie at anchor. That suites my lifestyle fine because we are happiest when we retract our hydraulic jacks, bring in our sliders and make for the open road to our next destination in our RV. The journey is what we are after.

We want to be able to follow in the wakes of any of the trawler adventures on YouTube we watch regularly. If they can do it, we most certainly can.

I thank everyone for your advice today and wish everyone a Merry Christmas. I leave you with my favorite quote:

"Greatness is not in where we stand, but in what direction we are moving. We must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it-but sail we must and not drift, nor lie at anchor." - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Magneto, I have followed most of this thread, and noted quite a few suggest you look into the FPB type of vessel, pioneered by a fellow called Steve Dashew and his wife, who had one built (in NZ) called Wind Horse. FPB apparently stands for Fast Pilot Boat, and the essential characteristics they are based on is the narrow beam, usually aluminium construction, (strong plus light), and ability to actually plane under certain conditions, utilising the long (for width) waterline length and hul shape to do so without horrendous fuel consumption.

Here are a couple of links, just in case you didn't follow this line of advice up yet..? They are not what one could call 'beautiful looking' boats, but very business-like. A classic example of form following function. However, Twisted Tree's advice re having a boat designed for 95% of your preferred use, being better than one designed for the 5% of use where speed is of the essence is well worth considering.




https://setsail.com/category/dashew-offshore/

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=dashew%2c+and+his+fpb+type+boats&qpvt=Dashew%2c+and+his+FPB+type+boats&FORM=IGRE

Just for your own interest have a look at something like a Meridian 459 to do a bit of coastal cruising before you set out on your big adventure. We lived on ours full time for 2 years of coastal cruising and just loved the comfort and surprising seaworthiness of her.


I have a friend who is a professional master and has skippered all the boats your looking at. His advise is all will do the job. His picks are the Flemming and the Nordhavn although he does advise that with the Nordhavn the stabilizers are critical as if they fail in big seas the ride will become more than interesting. On one of the Nordhavn Atlantic rally's I believe this happened as well and they had to heave to. The Flemming with it low center of gravity does not suffer this problem.



As a professional engineer I don't think you can go past the engineering on the Flemming an the Nordhavn is in the same league.


You probably already know about these people but if not have a look at their site as they have already circumnavigated the world in their Nordhavn.


https://mvdirona.com/

Magneto said:

I thank everyone for your advice today and wish everyone a Merry Christmas. I leave you with my favorite quote:

"Greatness is not in where we stand, but in what direction we are moving. We must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it-but sail we must and not drift, nor lie at anchor." - Oliver Wendell Holmes

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A really great quote. Thank you.

Mine is: 'Live life as though the gate's been left open.'

Magneto
Some alternative thinking.

According to Nordhavn about 1 of 5 Ns actually cross oceans in the first owner's hands. This means, like many of the 4 wheelers out there, the N vessels seldom are utilized to their maximum design envelope.

The penalty for choosing an N for a coastal cruiser is they are slow in comparison to a Fleming or similar vessels like an Offshore, Hampton or Outer Reef. One N that remains a favorite is the N57, with the last ones built around 2006. The 57 is faster than many other Ns by a fair margin. With some as required electronics upgrades, systems replacements and cosmetic work a refreshed 57 remains a much appreciated and sought after faster N model.

Nordhavn also makes the "fast" Coastal Pilot (CP) version that competes well with the Fleming 55 and 57. One lightly used one is for sale on the East Coast. If I were in your shoes I'd hustle to look at that low hour vessel. Much less costly than a Fleming and with the great N build quality and backup. And, you'd be able to be part of the 80% N club, except getting there faster.

Last but not least, don't forget about KK. Like Nordhavn, they are popular, sell well on the used market and are like a Swiss Army knife when picking uses. A few years ago we were looking at a 52 new build. That vessel with twin keels, twin JD 4045s and a nice overall design checks off a lot of boxes. And with a bit of fuel management, like most KKs can be an ocean crosser. TF member Richard has cruised his KK 42 extensively, crossing oceans and both NA coasts extensively.

sunchaser said:

Magneto
Some alternative thinking.

According to Nordhavn about 1 of 5 Ns actually cross oceans in the first owner's hands. This means, like many of the 4 wheelers out there, the N vessels seldom are utilized to their maximum design envelope.

The penalty for choosing an N for a coastal cruiser is they are slow in comparison to a Fleming or similar vessels like an Offshore, Hampton or Outer Reef. One N that remains a favorite is the N57, with the last ones built around 2006. The 57 is faster than many other Ns by a fair margin. With some as required electronics upgrades, systems replacements and cosmetic work a refreshed 57 remains a much appreciated and sought after faster N model.

Nordhavn also makes the "fast" Coastal Pilot (CP) version that competes well with the Fleming 55 and 57. One lightly used one is for sale on the East Coast. If I were in your shoes I'd hustle to look at that low hour vessel. Much less costly than a Fleming and with the great N build quality and backup. And, you'd be able to be part of the 80% N club, except getting there faster.

Last but not least, don't forget about KK. Like Nordhavn, they are popular, sell well on the used market and are like a Swiss Army knife when picking uses. A few years ago we were looking at a 52 new build. That vessel with twin keels, twin JD 4045s and a nice overall design checks off a lot of boxes. And with a bit of fuel management, like most KKs can be an ocean crosser. TF member Richard has cruised his KK 42 extensively, crossing oceans and both NA coasts extensively.

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In 2004, I delivered a new N57 from Dana Point to Ft Lauderdale. By far my favorite Nordhavn in the fleet - to paraphrase TT, her over-engineered and over-sized systems qualified as a big-little boat.

And she was fast. 500 engine hours. 4600 nms. 6 gph. About 9.25 kts average in open ocean, including a 5-days of slop coming north from the Canal. 28-days door to door (fuel in Acapulco, fuel and Canal transit in Panama City, then straight to Ft Lauderdale).

I also delivered an N57 from Dana Point to Cabo, about 1000 nms. Also ran about 9.25 kts at 6gph.

Only think I'd change is I didn't care for the bulbous bow. Could be noisy in a head sea and I question how much benefit there is.

One of the great boats of all time. Fantastic boat for a couple.

Peter B said:

Magneto, I have followed most of this thread, and noted quite a few suggest you look into the FPB type of vessel, pioneered by a fellow called Steve Dashew and his wife, who had one built (in NZ) called Wind Horse. FPB apparently stands for Fast Pilot Boat, and the essential characteristics they are based on is the narrow beam, usually aluminium construction, (strong plus light), and ability to actually plane under certain conditions, utilising the long (for width) waterline length and hul shape to do so without horrendous fuel consumption.

Here are a couple of links, just in case you didn't follow this line of advice up yet..? They are not what one could call 'beautiful looking' boats, but very business-like. A classic example of form following function. However, Twisted Tree's advice re having a boat designed for 95% of your preferred use, being better than one designed for the 5% of use where speed is of the essence is well worth considering.




https://setsail.com/category/dashew-offshore/

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=dashew%2c+and+his+fpb+type+boats&qpvt=Dashew%2c+and+his+FPB+type+boats&FORM=IGRE

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Thank You we did look at the videos in your link and I must say I am open to owning a FPB. The speed is very impressive and the safety of the design works for me. It's interesting to see a boat like this perform in normal rough seas and even right itself from a full rollover. Most other videos show off their boats in perfect sea conditions or at anchor. These FPB videos film and walk through while underway and in heavy seas. Impressive!

We will definitely keep an open mind to trying one out.

mvweebles said:

Only think I'd change is I didn't care for the bulbous bow. Could be noisy in a head sea and I question how much benefit there is.

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Or as some within N ranks say, the bulbous bow is why the 57 is the quick and fuel efficient vessel it is. For sure a 4 beer discussion with the tank testing and modeling experts.

As a systems guy your transition to this dimension shouldn't be too difficult. One thing that will come up is the ideal boat for such an undertaking is a large sail boat, simple, lower maint cost, reliable, etc.... Don't rule them out, but if you do rule them out because of comfort and luxury, this endeavor (circumnavigation), might not be for you...

Magneto said:

6. Protected prop from ice, rocks and logs

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None of the above. You want a steel boat, not plastic if you plan on entering the ice.

sunchaser said:

Or as some within N ranks say, the bulbous bow is why the 57 is the quick and fuel efficient vessel it is. For sure a 4 beer discussion with the tank testing and modeling experts.

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Well, according to none other than Jim Leishman himself, the tank test results improved fuel efficiency, not speed (see 2017 PMM article below). If you read to the end, you'll notice real-world test on a 75-footer that had a bulbous bow added post-commissioning. According to Leishman, detailed measurements were taken before and after, yet they were unable to draw any conclusions.

Finally, this is the same team - PAE + BC Tank Testing - that concluded "Maintenance Strakes," the bulges in the hull that enable standing headroom in the N40, actually improve performance. Don't get me wrong - I love the concept and think it's a great idea and trade-off. But "improve performance?" Gimme a break - for as much as I respect PAE/Nordhavn, some of their claims are unnecessarily puffed-up.

https://www.passagemaker.com/web-extras/blue-maxs-bulbous-bow

mvw
Yup, the bulbous bow concept and actual use can get confusing. A very smart friend had a bulbous bow added to his DeFever recently. He is ecstatic, not necessarily for any gains in fuel or flat water speed but for lesser pitching in big seas which allow him to then run faster. Commercial guys I've talked with say similar things on their 50 to 80 foot fishing vessels, big weather pluses.

Modeling and flat water sea trials may not tell the full tale. Lest I digress though, the 57 is as you note and others have found, a faster globe girdling Nordhavn than other Ns in the same size range.