Bilge Pumps and Apps

[Zoar]

I had VERY nasty scare. A new to me Trawler I bought about 2 weeks ago that I docked at a yacht club 3.5 hours away (until the Erie canal opens this is the closest I could get it to me.) gave my heart a hit.....................

Even though I asked the harbormaster to keep an eye on it and explained I mostly was concerned about it taking on water before I left, I said I would be back in 9 days to check on it.... well, I arrived two days ago to see it sitting very low in the water. It had taken on about 12 inches of water.

I jumped on the boat and turned the DC panel dial switch to BOTH battery banks and the bilge pump immediately kicked into action and began working to remove the water.

Thankfully the water did not reach the engines or any electricals.

BUT it really shook me up.

I talked with the surveyor who surveyed it when I bought the boat, the Captain I hired to go with us in the boat to bring it to this club, a marine electrician near the club, and my own diagnostics --- and the best I can come up with is the battery drained because we had the switch on to battery bank 1 and there was an unknown draw, so the bilge pump did not kick on for 9 days because it is wired to bank 1. Even though the boat was PLUGGED INTO TO SHORE POWER the batteries did not charge even though I thought shore power would go through the inverter and keep the battery 1 charged (there are 3 battery banks)

I plan to get a highly recommended marine electrician to install a second BILGE pump, as a back up... AND also go through the electrical system to give me an unquestionably clear understanding of what is on all the time and what is off and what is functioning with the breakers.

And I want an APP to my CELL PHONE to provide operational info on the bilge pump or give me a float level reading or some indicator of amount of water in my boat.

Im the meantime I am having yacht club manager take photos of my boat's waterline every day and text it to me and also left my keys with clear instructions on what to do with harbormaster if the waterline changes.

Man, this is a horrible feeling. I would not wish it on anywone. When you question whether or not your bilge pumps will kick on and when you have a new (old) boat and you are just learning what is going on with it but you have to leave it hours away from where you live due to CORONA VIRUS....

 

[John R M]

Were you able to determine where the water was coming from? 12" in 9 days seems quite excessive.

 

[caltexflanc]

Aqualarm makes a variety of bilge alarms including a cellular solution that can signal a variety of conditions to you. Some sort of external bell or horn is a good idea too. I don't recommend their bilge pump switches though. https://aqualarm.net/bilge-alarms-switches-c-6/

Pay up and get a USS Pumpswitch, which as i learned first hand, the Aqualarm switch is a cheap knock-off of. I have had good luck with the other equipment I have bought from AQ though.

Sound like in addition to adding another bilge pump, some sort of high water back up pump is in order too.

 

[Zoar]

Were you able to determine where the water was coming from? 12" in 9 days seems quite excessive.

Not 100% yet.

We have some theories. Once some water weaped in from "normal places" and with no functioning bilge the theory is it lowered the boat we think so most of the water may have THEN come in from:

Rear starboard exhaust port (boat lists starboard)
Bilge ports that have no flapper valves
Rain (But no clear idea of where it entered the hull)

It IS perplexing! After I de-watered the boat I stayed on it. Unable to sleep with concern and checking the bilge every few hours, less than 1 inch of water came in and collected along the center of the keel from 6 PM monday evening to 12:30 pm Tuesday afternoon.... so there was NOT much!

We are all baffled.

Right now after 24 hours the boat sits the same as when I left it yesterday.

 

[Redhook98]

I would jump on figuring out the source of your leak. That is not anywhere near normal, nor good. Are you sure it's not fresh water from your hotel services or your FW tank? If you are getting that much water in from outside, you have serious issues that need to be looked at now.


Sounds like you need to have your charging system and batteries reevaluated as well. They should not have been drawn down like that, and then take that long to recover.

 

[sbman]

There are a variety of remote monitoring systems available. One that I've seen is Siren Marine, although I do not have hands on experience with it.

Adding a battery monitor that provides real-time current draw/charge is one of the best things you can do, you'll be able to make sure there aren't any unusual drains on the system when you prep the boat to leave it for a bit, and see if the charger is working or not with minimal fuss.

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

The monitoring app we use is Boat Command it will notify you via cell text when ever there is a bilge pump activation, monitors DC voltage, AC input (disconnect), intrusion + geo fence which can be used as an anchor alarm at least that's what I've been told. Initial cost of the system IFRC 1/3 boat unit, install is easy, annual cost is around $70.
It also keeps a log of all monitored parameters.

 

[stevemitchell]

I have three different apps aboard that I'm testing/using. One is Siren Marine which has a wired connection into the bilge pumps so I know when they're running, how long, and can set thresholds and alerts. The app also has graphs and such.

The second is a BG-Link system that has bilge sensors that can send notifications and also run the bilge pumps. I'm less enthused about this one after having failures with their sensors, but the app and notifications are similar to Siren.

The last one is Maretron with their run indicators and N2Kview, which have been around for a while. I can post some screen shots soon if you'd like.

The Siren Marine one was the easiest to install and most reliable for the last year or so. I get texts and app alerts whenever something runs too long, runs more than X times per hour or day, and know the health of everything all along. Peace of mind.

 

[Zoar]

I have three different apps aboard that I'm testing/using. One is Siren Marine which has a wired connection into the bilge pumps so I know when they're running, how long, and can set thresholds and alerts. The app also has graphs and such.

The second is a BG-Link system that has bilge sensors that can send notifications and also run the bilge pumps. I'm less enthused about this one after having failures with their sensors, but the app and notifications are similar to Siren.

The last one is Maretron with their run indicators and N2Kview, which have been around for a while. I can post some screen shots soon if you'd like.

The Siren Marine one was the easiest to install and most reliable for the last year or so. I get texts and app alerts whenever something runs too long, runs more than X times per hour or day, and know the health of everything all along. Peace of mind.

This is very good info. Thank you. I don't need screen shots. When the marine electrician calls me back I will ask him what he is most comfortable with as well.

 

[Shrew]

So, you have a couple of issues. Adding another bilge pump probably isn't solving your issue.

1) You have an active leak that needs to be addressed (I think that part is obvious)

2) An inverter typically draws from DC (12v/24v) and feeds AC (120V). That wouldn't normally charge DC batteries (snake eating it's own tail). There are charger/inverter combo units.

Since toggling to the other battery actuated the bilge pump, we can deduce that the bilge pump itself is functioning (hence why replacing it isn't really your solution).

I suspect that either...

A) The bilge pump was not drawing from the battery bank that was active

OR

B) The bilge pump drew down the active battery as it kept up with the active leak (This far more likely).

If B, then my next question is "Why was the active battery bank not being recharged by the battery charger?"

Battery #1 is usually START, while Battery #2 is House. Do you have the battery charger recharging the House Bank and relying on the alternators to recharge the starter battery?

If this is the case, your solution would be fix the leak and remember to keep the battery selector on the battery bank being recharged by the charger.

Too many 'What If's'. You need to dive into your systems. Blindly replacing the bilge pump is not your problem and therefore, not your appropriate solution.

 

[Zoar]

So, you have a couple of issues. Adding another bilge pump probably isn't solving your issue.

1) You have an active leak that needs to be addressed (I think that part is obvious)

2) An inverter typically draws from DC (12v/24v) and feeds AC (120V). That wouldn't normally charge DC batteries (snake eating it's own tail). There are charger/inverter combo units.

Since toggling to the other battery actuated the bilge pump, we can deduce that the bilge pump itself is functioning (hence why replacing it isn't really your solution).

I suspect that either...

A) The bilge pump was not drawing from the battery bank that was active

OR

B) The bilge pump drew down the active battery as it kept up with the active leak (This far more likely).

If B, then my next question is "Why was the active battery bank not being recharged by the battery charger?"

Battery #1 is usually START, while Battery #2 is House. Do you have the battery charger recharging the House Bank and relying on the alternators to recharge the starter battery?

If this is the case, your solution would be fix the leak and remember to keep the battery selector on the battery bank being recharged by the charger.

Too many 'What If's'. You need to dive into your systems. Blindly replacing the bilge pump is not your problem and therefore, not your appropriate solution.

Yes understood. I am not replacing this bilge pump. I want another as backup and want it to draw from a different battery bank. Right now there are THREE battery banks on this boat. battery 1 for engine, battery 2 for other engine and house battery.

I am having a hard time finding the leak because i stayed on the boat for nearly 20 hours watching everything closely and the bilge pump never went on and no more than an inch of water collected in the keal while I was on it. I of course manually lifted the bilge pump float and it worked fine. and checked in with the SELECTOR switch in all three positions and it worked fine in every position.

Also it does have a charger / inverter and I am baffled why it seems it did NOT work for those 9 days YET it worked fine when I got to the boat and was babysitting it.

 

[Redhook98]

Are you sure it is not fresh water from the tanks or water input from dock?

 

[timb]

i have siren and love it . i also set a geo fence when at anchor and can see it on the map while i'm away.

your post reminded me to check on mine . although it would message me if anything is wrong .all right at your finger tips .i did have the engine room temp sensor go out but they sent me a new one fast.

 

[timb]

also it keeps an event log .it will help you figure out where your water is coming from . i know if my pump runs during thunder storms the rear deck hatch drain is clogged . you can see the pump running too frequently on the events it sent me a text for that. and every thing it monitors has a hourly daily and weekly chart to help you figure out what is happening.

 

[Zoar]

also it keeps an event log .it will help you figure out where your water is coming from . i know if my pump runs during thunder storms the rear deck hatch drain is clogged . you can see the pump running too frequently on the events it sent me a text for that. and every thing it monitors has a hourly daily and weekly chart to help you figure out what is happening.

THAT is what I want.

And two bilge pumps each attached to a DIFFERENT battery bank.

 

[Shrew]

Yes understood. I am not replacing this bilge pump. I want another as backup and want it to draw from a different battery bank. Right now there are THREE battery banks on this boat. battery 1 for engine, battery 2 for other engine and house battery.

There's nothing wrong with a secondary bilge pump for redundancy and capacity. However, that is not the problem you had. I'd be more concerned with what I would need to do to keep the batteries charged under such conditions.

Which battery bank was active at the time?

Was that battery bank dead?

Was the battery bank being charged by the battery charger?

 

[koliver]

Time to simplify.
One house bank, One start bank.
Bilge pumps on a float switch that is always energised.
Bilge pumps also on a direct connection that you can select when needed.
Inverter always OFF when you are not on the boat.
Charger always ON when you are on shore power.

When you leave the boat, you need to be able to walk away without worry that you have forgotten to switch something your present system might have that was imperfectly explained to you by the Broker or former owner.

All of this comes after the source of water intrusion has been identified and corrected.

Good luck.

 

[Zoar]

Time to simplify.
One house bank, One start bank.
Bilge pumps on a float switch that is always energised.
Bilge pumps also on a direct connection that you can select when needed.
Inverter always OFF when you are not on the boat.
Charger always ON when you are on shore power.

When you leave the boat, you need to be able to walk away without worry that you have forgotten to switch something your present system might have that was imperfectly explained to you by the Broker or former owner.

All of this comes after the source of water intrusion has been identified and corrected.

Good luck.

Correct!

 

[rgano]

Are you sure it is not fresh water from the tanks or water input from dock?

Waterline would not have gone down.

Rain?

Those concerns about water coming through the exhaust would seem to indicate you think the exhaust through hull is poorly installed and leaking.. Should be easy to check by backing down hard with somebody down below watching.

Other concerns would indicate maybe the bilge outlets are run incorrectly. I found mine on this Pilot ran directly from pump to waterline through-hull instead of up to the underside of the deck ahead. Anti-siphon valve dujour.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

Had a similar experience with our boat. After first move we left it at a marina and came home (2hrs away). Went back 10 days later and there was a foot of water in the bilge (deep bilge so nowhere near engines or wiring), but still shook me up a bit. Discovered the lower bilge pump (we have three at different levels, and a sump pump) had some trash wedged in that prevented the floating foot from working. Looked everywhere for leaks - prop shafts were leaking a bit - repacked them. Rudder shafts were leaking a bit - tightened them. But still more water appeared in the bilge - and it was salty to the taste. Finally found the big leak after pulling out the floor panel under master vanity - the poop pump and intake pump for the toilet were located there (Galley Maid) - intake pump was leaking a steady stream. Replaced with a Raritan Marine Elegance and tossed the old system. Now I have a dry bilge

 

[Zoar]

Had a similar experience with our boat. After first move we left it at a marina and came home (2hrs away). Went back 10 days later and there was a foot of water in the bilge (deep bilge so nowhere near engines or wiring), but still shook me up a bit. Discovered the lower bilge pump (we have three at different levels, and a sump pump) had some trash wedged in that prevented the floating foot from working. Looked everywhere for leaks - prop shafts were leaking a bit - repacked them. Rudder shafts were leaking a bit - tightened them. But still more water appeared in the bilge - and it was salty to the taste. Finally found the big leak after pulling out the floor panel under master vanity - the poop pump and intake pump for the toilet were located there (Galley Maid) - intake pump was leaking a steady stream. Replaced with a Raritan Marine Elegance and tossed the old system. Now I have a dry bilge

Thank you for this post. (Always useful when others share similar experiences even if it is pain). Indeed, I think you are on to something here. I checked for water intrusion before I left the boat Tuesday and found only slight weeping from rudder block area. However, after wracking my brain for 3 days (and asking for and getting pictures from the dock worker sent to me everyday of the waterline) I am heading back to the boat again this afternoon to check on it. I will look more extensively at the heads.

 

[AlanT]

And I want an APP to my CELL PHONE to provide operational info on the bilge pump or give me a float level reading or some indicator of amount of water in my boat.

Wasserstein sell a competitively priced high water alarm that connects to a local WiFi network and will send a message to an app on your phone. You do however need access to wifi on your boat at its location. This is an economical solution if you have WiFi/Internet at the boat.

The alarm can be set at any height. In its domestic use you set it on the ground and it will trigger in about 1/8th inch of water.

 

[SeaMaster101]

All these individual alarms are fine, but sometimes till you find out what happen the alarm trigger is gone and you are left wondering what was alarming... So in the 21 century I will stay away from such unperfected setups.

Siren marine is nice, but it is designed to serve you while you are at home.

There is a vessel monitoring and alarm system that I installed on my boat with will monitor not only my bilges, but every other subsystem and give me an early warnings before the situation becomes critical.

As far as bilge alarms are concerned, you can setup one for each bilge and the system will count and remember how many times the specific bilge pump came up and what was the total duration of running time for this bilge pump since the last reset.

It also is designed to be able to ignore normal water ingress trough the shaft seal if you prefer too... Setup a "integral alarm" rather than simple on/off alarm and you can choose time frame period and duration with in this time frame period in which the pump is allowed to run. In simple words if for your boat is normal the bilge pump to run for 1 or 2 min cumulative time every hour to get read of normal water ingress through shafts, you can setup your tine window for 1 hour and allowable run time for 2 min. Then you will NOT be bothered with normal water ingress and the pump getting it out. You will be ONLY notified when the total running time in the one hour sliding window exceeds 2 minutes. How is that for convenience? The system also can be connected to SMS communicator module and send you daily report messages, and emergency messages every time something happens.
There are many more things you can do with it, and it is extremely useful device while underway and while at the dock with the SMS functionality.
the first picture below shows daily reposts and you can see that there was a bilge alarm triggered on Tues Oct8th at 19:50.
the second picture show the battery status report. The last picture shows the main screen layout for this particular vessel. it could be fully configured and support different subsystem on your vessel.
here is the device's Datasheet:
http://www.kobelt.com/docs/default-source/product-datasheets-(pds)/vitals-6700-product-datasheet.pdf?sfvrsn=10

Good luck and cheers!

 

[tn6437]

leaking boat

i had a similar issue. the packing on my driveshaft failed and the resulting flow of water started accumulating due to a faulty float switch. fortunately the marina noticed she was sitting low in the water, called me and we pumped her out. i have since installed a backup bilge pump, repacked the shaft and replaced the faulty float switch. i am still nervous about leaving her though.
first and foremost you need to find out where the water is coming from
second , you need to be certain that the bilge pump is always got power regardless of what position the battery switches are in, whether you are on boat power, shore power or power off.
lastly when you are connected to shore power the batteries , all of them , should be charging, even if the battery switches are in the off position. a battery going dead should never be the cause of your boat taking on water.

 

[rgano]

In simple words if for your boat is normal the bilge pump to run for 1 or 2 min cumulative time every hour to get read of normal water ingress through shafts, you can setup your tine window for 1 hour and allowable run time for 2 min. !

That seems like a pretty leaky vessel in my experience.

 

[fryedaze]

Lots of good advice on finding the leak and getting the bilge pumps up to snuff.
We only had one 610 gph diaphragm pump on our boat when we bought it. I installed a little 500 gph pp to keep bilge dry and a 3700 gph for bigger problems. This winter I installed a 4700 gph. Not having enough capacity has always bugged me. I don't want to look back and say " if I would have had just a little more discharge, I would have had that extra few minutes I needed to find an slow that leak before she went under"

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2014/december/bilge-pump-capacity.asp

 

[dwiggl]

Same scenario with my recent purchase of a used boat.
Check your shaft seals on the rudder(s). I discovered 6" of water in the lowest part of the bilge after 3 weeks. Both shafts were leaking 1 drop every 30 seconds. Yes, there needs to be a pump down there also, and will rectify that problem soon.

 

[AusCan]

Not 100% yet.

Once some water weaped in from "normal places" and with no functioning bilge the theory is it lowered the boat we think so most of the water may have THEN come in from:

Rear starboard exhaust port (boat lists starboard)
Bilge ports that have no flapper valves
Rain (But no clear idea of where it entered the hull)

I'd sort out those leaks from "normal places". You shouldn't accumulate more than a a few cupfuls a day at the most from shaft packing glands. Preferably they shouldn't leak at all if you have good quality packing.

 

[SeaMaster101]

That seems like a pretty leaky vessel in my experience.

Which one is the leaky boat? The one in the illustrative example I gave? Why would you take that literally? I was trying to explain configurability with an example. One can setup 1 day as a sliding timeframe window or 1 month if you would like to. If you have dry bilges there are sensor that detect minimum water presence and one don't need to depend on the bilge pump switch for the signal. it depends on the vessel - sky is the limit.

 

[dutch-barge]

not sure what charger/ inverter you have
but we have a Victron, and with their control unit ( Venus) you cannot FREE alerts for bilge pumps, temp sensors, shore out etc