Gas engines / verses Diesel on larger boats ??

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rslifkin wrote;
“Personally, I'm in the "any hull that can plane well should be powered well enough to do it" camp,”

Trawlers were designed to do something they can’t do anymore. Or something their present owners can’t afford. Poor people w boats too big for their low play money income seem to abound here. Just can’t afford to run them the way they were designed.
This thread shows why gasoline may or could be a better engine choice than diesel. Diesel engine power is almost a religion on this forum and the thread’s outcome was probably predictable.

So rslifkin your clear headed view of the diesel/gas/trawler is well written and accurately stated IMO.
 
Cause of fires on boats.

I attempted to download a chart with no success so I'll just print it out:

DC Electrical 32 %
Off Boat source 26
AC electrical 9
Engine 7
Fuel 5
Other 13
Unknown 8

"Other Causes Of Fire
As Figure 2 shows, of the fires that originated on a BoatUS-insured boat in the claim files, no cause was assigned to 10 percent of our total fires. A quarter of the fires in Figure 2 fall into the categories of fuel and other. While no single cause stands out in these categories, there are a few takeaways:

Fuel. The majority of fuel fires come from fuel leaks due to failures of hoses or hose clamps. Wiping down hoses with a rag and smelling it can alert you to a slow leak that hasn't yet caused a serious problem. If the rag smells of gasoline or diesel, either you have a leak or the hose is old enough that it is becoming porous and needs to be replaced.
Stoves. The incidence of fires due to stoves has decreased with the gradual replacement of alcohol stoves with propane stoves and electric ranges. Two percent of fires were caused by stoves, more than half resulting from problems with lighting alcohol stoves. Given how few alcohol stoves there are on boats these days, they are significantly more dangerous than those that use other fuel sources. If you still have an alcohol stove on board, you may want to consider upgrading. Most people agree that they don't heat very well, anyway.

Shrinkwrapping. BoatUS gets a few fires every year associated with installing shrinkwrapping. These can be particularly problematic because the fires can spread quickly from boat to boat in a crowded marina hardstand area. This is a job that we'd prefer you leave to professionals.

https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2015/october/boat-fires.asp
 
Trawlers were designed to do something they can’t do anymore. Or something their present owners can’t afford. Poor people w boats too big for their low play money income seem to abound here. Just can’t afford to run them the way they were designed.

For that one, it comes down to the specific trawler in question. Some are displacement hulls so planing is out of the question. Some are semi-displacement but either require so much power to plane or plane poorly enough that it's not worth powering for it.

But for the semi-displacement hulls that plane decently or planing hulls, unless it's a huge cost problem or costs a bunch of efficiency at low speed, might as well power it to get up and run even if 90% of the use is at low speeds. It would suck to come across a situation where using the speed would be worthwhile (such as fighting through a strong opposing current) and be left thinking "this hull runs great at 20 kts, but too bad I only gave it enough engine to do 9"
 
Fuel injection may remove one source of gasoline fuel leakage, making the engines safer.I would not have gas engines,for safety reasons, having been involved in the aftermath of a deadly explosion. But if people are comfortable with what must be a diminished risk these days,and take care, go for it.
 
Fuel injection may remove one source of gasoline fuel leakage, making the engines safer


I go back and forth in my head on this one. Fuel injection should be less likely to leak than a carb (and it has plenty of operational benefits), but at the same time, the fuel lines after the pump are under much higher pressure with fuel injection, so in the event of a leak, things are likely to go sideways more quickly.
 
I go back and forth in my head on this one. Fuel injection should be less likely to leak than a carb (and it has plenty of operational benefits), but at the same time, the fuel lines after the pump are under much higher pressure with fuel injection, so in the event of a leak, things are likely to go sideways more quickly.
It didn`t work so well my Series 3 Jaguar 4.2L. The final fuel delivery connection used clamped rubber type tubes.Fortunately the engine had a crossflow head,avoiding the leaking fuel dripping on the hot exhaust manifold.
 
There are some great boats in the mid-size, not-to-old range available. I see Codger2 has an Ocean Alexander - AWESOME boat. Aside of names, pilot house boats generally are more livable. You may want to rent/charter a few boats before finalizing your decision - or go out with friends. If you want a condo by the sea, I have found that 40-50 feet is doable. Meridian is a boat you should look closely at - the 391 and 441 models. Most boats get good fuel economy at trawler speeds. So don't make that a deal-breaker decision. Some prefer a boat that can go a bit faster to get to an island quicker, or out-run a storm. If you plan to "choose" your weather, that isn't a requirement. Remember to consider how YOU will use the boat. As for gas/diesel - if it stays at the dock, or you just cruise a bit - it's not that big a deal - just follow the rules about fumes and ventilating. I and many prefer diesel. They last forever, have a lot more torque for control in a variety of seas, and, let's face it, they are way cool! (Tim the Tool Man Taylor approved!)
 
I would just like to inject an experience I had related to the safety of gas versus diesel. This happened to me in 1980 aboard a 1960 Trojan cabin cruiser I owned at the time. It was my first of 4 boats. I also want to be upfront here stating the situation could just have easily turned out far worse and in fact fatal.

That boat had twin 50 gallon gas tanks and I had just filled up both of them. I had also just had a mechanic friend of mine replace the fuel hoses from the tanks up to the fuel pump and to the carburetor. In doing the work he made several mistakes. The first mistake was taking both feed lines from the tanks and connecting then via a common tee fitting that was suspended amidships under the cockpit sole without the aid of proper straps to hold the weight of the fuel lines and fitting.

The brass tee connector needed 3 hose clamps minimum to secure the three rubber hose lines, two going in and one going out. He only had two hose clamps of the proper size and his thought was he would come back in a week or two and add the missing clamp. When I saw him the day after he did the work he advised me of the condition. Remarkably, I didn't think it would be a problem. Huge mistake on both our parts.

Two weeks later I went to the boat and as I was walking down the dock I could smell gas. It turns out Murphy had paid a visit to my boat shortly before I got there. It was a 'worst case' scenario. It turned out that the one rubber fuel line without the hose clamp on it possibly swelled from being exposed to the fuel, and what was a 'tight fit' according to the mechanic became a loose fit and the hose came off of the tee fitting. This, in turn, caused the unsupported tee fitting to fall into the bowels of the bilge.

To make matters worse, both shut-off valves on the tanks had been left open by the mechanic when he tested the system by running the engine. I never left the boat without closing those off, and trust me, over the next 18 years of owning boats I never left a boat without shutting those tank valves off. When the tee fitting dropped down it fell below the bottom of the tanks and siphoned the 50 gallons of gas in the still connected starboard tank into the bilge. Hence the smell of gas as I neared my slip.

When I opened the hatches in the cockpit I could see the bilge was full of gas. I rapped the side of the port tank and it was full. Rapping the starboard tank produced a distinctive hollow sound as one could imagine. Fortunately for me I was young, stupid, and fearless at that age so I went the the Marina Office and told the manager what happened. She said there were a few 50 gallon blue plastic drums in back of the office and I could use one to recapture the gasoline. So I did. I also warned all the other boater there that day on my dock not to let anyone near my boat as I cleaned the mess up. I was the last boat on that particular dock. That didn't go to plan.

I put the drum on the dock and using a large plastic cup I scooped the gas out of the bilge and poured it into the drum about 16 ounces at a time. The lowest point in the bilge on that style of boat is right below the V-berth. As I was scooping out the last few quarts of gas in the bow of the boat I walked out of the companionway onto the cockpit and saw one of the worst sights I could imagine that day.

There I was covered in gas, and I mean literally, the boat was nothing but gas fumes, there was a rainbow slick on the water surrounding my boat from small spillages during the recovery process, a plastic drum with close to 50 gallons of gas in it on the dock and what do I see? I see a Hispanic fellow with one foot on the dock and his other foot on my gunnel with his arm resting on his knee. In his hand was lit cigarette.

I look at him in astonishment and say, "Hey buddy, this is gas!" pointing to everything around him. He says, "Oh, gasoline, like boom?" I said, "Yea, get that cigarette out of here!" He turns around and starts to flick the cigarette into the water and I tell him don't do that, just walk away fast and take your lit cigarette with you.

Now here is the point I want to make... Boats do indeed have fires and explosions due to gas being the fuel. In fact, a friend of mine spent some time in the burn ward because he reached down and tried to start his engine with a screwdriver by shorting a broken solenoid at the starter. He hadn't cleared the bilge of fumes and was holding the engine hatch open in his bathing suit. The flash severely burned one side of his body and the arm that was holding up the hatch. The boat was unharmed. Him, not so much.

Back on point... gasoline needs a certain combination of elements for it to become unduly dangerous. Air/fuel ratio is certainly at the top of the list and so are ignition sources. The long story I related above was for the purpose of helping people understand the true nature of gasoline as a marine fuel source. I'd be willing to bet that very few boaters have had such an experience as I described above, fully covered in gas with gasoline fumes so heavy it was hard to breath. Yet in spite of those terrible odds nothing bad happened to me that day. Was I lucky? You bet. I'll be the first to admit I dodged a few bullets that day.

But everyday millions of people put gas in their cars and truck without so much as a second thought. It turns out gasoline is not the demon it is made out to be. Can a boater safely use gasoline as a fuel? Well, millions of boaters do it all the time and in fact it is the rarest of occasions when something goes horribly wrong. That was my first boat. My next three boats were gas and the boat my wife and I are looking to purchase this spring will in all likelihood be a gas boat.

Your mileage may vary. No pun intended.
 
I don't think anyone is claiming gas fires on boats don't occur, but significantly less than thought and not until I read the article I linked to earlier on in this thread, fittings not working well accounted for the fires. If people reading this thread have older boats and they haven't had their fitting examined, I strongly recommend it.

I liken it to cars. Car fires do occur but not that frequently and you don't have people purchasing diesel cars so as to avoid gas car fires.

Just for trivia's sake I'll talk about how I was trained in the Canadian Navy, all personnel on board ships are fire trained, kind of hard to call in the fire department in the middle of the Pacific. So cut off the citadel structure on a destroyer, the tall part on the ship. Now plunk that citadel down on a giant barbeque with grids so that when you walk inside the citadel, the deck is the barbeque grate bars. Now fill that large barbeque up with oil and light it.

Now send in two young men (back then no women) wearing Chem Ox recycling breathing apparatus. One holds a shower head like device that punches a hole in the heat with a circular spray of water. The other victim with a hose uses water to put out an oil fire. What you do is roughly make the sign of the cross above the water, pushing the flames into a corner where they get snuffed out.

The first time I went in, the fire got a way from us and the fire circled around us. Interesting to be in this structure, enclosed with the fire lapping up at you. Second time around, I got it right and forced the flames into a corner where they indeed were snuffed out.

My one favourite memory is that the doors on the citadel are closed when the fire is started, then the instructor opens the door and tells you to go in. It's kind of like what my vision of going into a fiery hell might look like in a movie.

But they weren't done. Next up there is a large pan about four feet long and about two feet wide filled with gasoline. Then that gas is lit and again I and my buddy go in, him with the circular water to punch a hole in the heat, and me with a fire extinguisher - chemical - to extinguish the flames.

What I learned from the gas scenario is the tremendous heat put out by gas. If you are in your car and for some inexplicable reason your gas tank catches on fire, you have very limited time measured in seconds to get out or you will get fried.

And yet I still bought a gas engine boat. But you better believe mine is equiped with two, not one automatic chemical dispenser, in the engine compartment. And large, not those sucky 5 pound fire extinguishers that most have, fire extinguishers by the engine in the cockpit area.
 
False equivalence with cars and boats, gas fumes in cars sink to ground and disperse. Can't happen with boats, the fumes hang in the bilge until ignition or they are removed.
 
And the vast majority of the time there is no explosion or fire even with fumes in the bilge before safety actions kick in.

So if careful, there are thousands of ways to die before being killed in a gas boat
 
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Oh ffs, no one said you are going to die because of gas motors, can you get a hobby or a pet or something instead of trying to twist everything ever said about marine gasoline engines. And maybe some people that weren't aware about the dangers of fumes in a bilge could learn something instead of you trying to minimize every scenario.
 
Or you fear mongering.....goes both ways in a discussion.

I doubt many need any learning on the dangers of gas fumes that haven't heard it somewhere.
 
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No fear mongering, just adding a few facts to this crap show. Care to debate any of those or do you prefer to just be a contrarian? No response needed, I already know.
 
I have added as many facts as anyone but I'm done till the next tidbit of misinformation or fearmongering .
 
No disrespect meant to any of the fine folks who have posted on this thread, but I wish we could once have a discussion of gas engines vs diesels engines WITHOUT it ending in a debate about how dangerous gasoline is! :whistling:

No doubt that one needs to be aware of gas vapors and take adequate precautions. But going back to the boatus numbers posted earlier, less than 5% of all boat fires are caused by fuel issues.

Even with diesels, an overheated turbocharger or diesel spraying onto a hot manifold could potentially cause a fire. Yes, it wont explode, but still dangerous.

Realistically most of us won't have to make the gas/diesel decision. The decision will already be made by the type/size of boat we are interested in buying.

Jim
 
The ONLY way I'd have gasoline in a larger vessel would be if it was powered by outboards (note plural) and with fuel tanks designed to be impossible to rot out and send fuel into the people tank. Gasoline scares the sh__ out of me in an inboard, and I will not ride/drive/sit in one. Just a personal opinion.

There are some good opinions expressed here about the direction you might take, and I hope you will let us know which way you go from here.
 
The ONLY way I'd have gasoline in a larger vessel would be if it was powered by outboards (note plural) and with fuel tanks designed to be impossible to rot out and send fuel into the people tank. Gasoline scares the sh__ out of me in an inboard, and I will not ride/drive/sit in one. Just a personal opinion.

There are some good opinions expressed here about the direction you might take, and I hope you will let us know which way you go from here.

When you look at the statistics it says electricity is far more dangerous than gas. Does your boat have electricity? How can you condemn gas and still have electricity?
 
Personally, the only thing that scares me with my gas inboards is the idea of a tank leak without warning or other occurrence that ends in a bunch of fuel in the bilge. Most sources of gas fumes are easily avoided, easily detected and easily mitigated if they happen, provided precautions like proper ventilation, fume detectors, regular inspection, etc. are taken. But ending up with a bunch of liquid fuel in the bilge is a bad situation with no good, safe, easy way out.
 
Some people LOVE their diesel engines on TF .. actually many many.
Everyone knows the odds of getting blown up in a gas boat is almost zip.
That big smelly diesel is on a throne and gas engine talk is viewed as a threat.
That’s why non-diesel and high rpm engines will never get much mileage here.
They are sacrilegious noises that will always get put down.
 
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The ONLY way I'd have gasoline in a larger vessel would be if it was powered by outboards (note plural) and with fuel tanks designed to be impossible to rot out and send fuel into the people tank. Gasoline scares the sh__ out of me in an inboard, and I will not ride/drive/sit in one. Just a personal opinion.

There are some good opinions expressed here about the direction you might take, and I hope you will let us know which way you go from here.

"Paranoia strikes deep!"

It appears that you surely should be better off not dealing in any way with gasoline boats... "Fear attracts/breads failure!"
 
When you look at the statistics it says electricity is far more dangerous than gas. Does your boat have electricity? How can you condemn gas and still have electricity?

I said it is an opinion and regardless of rational statistics, I stick to it. I also don't like heights, and stats show not many folks accidentally fall from them - I still don't like em.

Didn't I read that most of those electrical fires were pier side?

I have had a bilge full of relatively harmless diesel in my own boat which situation I was able to safely handle. I have been aboard two warships filled with hundred of ton of munitions drifting powerless at sea with engine room fires from diesel like fuel. Had it been gasoline, I would not be here discussing this topic. Just sayin'......
 
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"Paranoia strikes deep!"

It appears that you surely should be better off not dealing in any way with gasoline boats... "Fear attracts/breads failure!"

Correct, except lil boats with outboards and lil bitty plastic tanks. :blush:
 
Personally, I'm in the "any hull that can plane well should be powered well enough to do it" camp, as it's not worth having the downsides of a planing hull if you can barely get it on plane.

I thought the same with all the smaller boats I have had, always running at max to get on plane. It seemed as they were powered to plane with no load added. add in dirty hull, engine age and you are plowing water.
 
Just a personal thought based on no evidence.

My rule of thumb is under 30 feet-gas, over 30 feet-diesel.
But of course there will be exceptions
 
Just a personal thought based on no evidence.

My rule of thumb is under 30 feet-gas, over 30 feet-diesel.
But of course there will be exceptions

This is not an unreasonable starting point. With all the modern fume detection equipment and the quality of modern fuel lines, there is no reason to fear gas. Then some one brings up the poorly maintained 1960’s vintage boat that exploded. Old poorly maintained boats are just as likely to sink as blow up. Nether are acceptable to me, so don’t expect to see me on a poorly maintained boat no matter what engines it has.

All this from a guy who has diesels on his boat and gas on his dingy.
 
I thought the same with all the smaller boats I have had, always running at max to get on plane. It seemed as they were powered to plane with no load added. add in dirty hull, engine age and you are plowing water.

Unfortunately a lot of boats come from the factory with some combination of trim tabs too small, not enough power for the hull, propped wrong, etc. And I've noticed a lot of the smaller boats tend to have a lot of deadrise to get some semblance of ride comfort, so they end up taking a lot of power to plane. Doesn't help that a couple of humans is a relatively significant weight increase compared to the empty boat on something small.

Too-small trim tabs are a particularly bad one. The small tabs end up needing to be put all the way down, so they make a lot of drag. And they're not big enough to add a lot of lift, just enough to keep the bow from being sky high. So you end up with a boat that struggles onto plane, but runs ok once it's up there. Hence a lot of smaller boats appearing to need a good blast at WOT to get up, then they can throttle back. With big, wide span tabs, you can get a lot of lift and a better lift / drag ratio from the tabs, so getting the boat up out of the water is a lot easier, especially for a stern heavy boat.
 
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Joy

You didn't state the number of people you plan to cruise with, or how far you plan to cruise.

If you want to go with 2 couples then you would be looking at a 40+ or larger boat to have two state rooms and a 50' boat to have two heads with showers. Even a 60' boat will not have the room of a 2 bdr condo.

How far to you want to travel per day, per week, per month.
Most trawler boats at displacement speeds will run at 7-8 knots. With that speed you would be looking at 50 miles per day on the average.

Fuel cost per gallon is less with diesel than gas ( 3.00-D 4.00-G gal ) average for most places. Maintenance for gas or diesel is similar if you plan to do it your self. If you tale it to a boat yard then ask the service manager what they charge for annual maintenance on each type of engine.

You need to be realistic on how you plan to use the boat and then buy the boat that fits you needs.

I know this does not answer your questions, but you need to answer them you self.

I second this advice. Our Endeavour 44 catamaran trawler has 2 diesels, 240 hp each, and burns about 3-4 gph at 9 knots, 2600 rpm. She will do 12-14, but fuel jumps to 10-12 gph. However, we have a very large saloon/living dining area, 3 queen berths, 2 large heads with walk in showers, covered and enclosed helm station, generator/ a/c. , large galley with fridge, freezer, ice maker. Very comfortable and livable. A cat is not for everyone but if you are thinking of using the boat for extended periods and having any guests, a 30-32 foot boat is not going to be comfortable. I also prefer diesels for safety of fuel.
My $ .02
Jack
New Orleans
 
The gassers usually stop in size at about 450 cubic inches..

A boat that needs more than 300HP per engine to plane will usually select diesels.

To be light the diesels selected will be turboed and after cooled and may well have a service life of only about 1,000 hours per rebuild..
 
The gassers usually stop in size at about 450 cubic inches..

A boat that needs more than 300HP per engine to plane will usually select diesels.

To be light the diesels selected will be turboed and after cooled and may well have a service life of only about 1,000 hours per rebuild..

I'd probably put the cutoff even a bit lower. There are plenty of high power gassers out there, but most aren't built for durability at high continuous output (probably because that tends to make their efficiency even worse and/or make them more expensive to where people would just buy diesels). So pushing 250+ hp on a continuous basis is hard on them, even if they can put out 400+ hp at WOT.

For the higher power diesels and lifespan, it's all about engine sizing. Any engine sized to have the crap run out of it at normal cruise is going to live a short life unless it's continuous rated. Ideally, a planing hull should be powered to run at WOT well above the speed you'd want to cruise it at so you're cruising in a happier zone for the engines under good conditions and still not be running flat out to stay on plane fully loaded on a rough day. This often means going up one engine size from the smallest thing that gives acceptable performance.

As an example, my boat with 2x 340hp 454 gassers will do 27 - 28 kts wide open, but that's well above a comfortable cruise for the engines and also for the hull. Cruising at 17 - 18 kts, the engines are putting out probably not much over half power, judging by fuel consumption, etc. So cruise power is probably somewhere in the 180hp ballpark, give or take 20 for this being a guesstimate. That's low enough to give good service life even from the gassers and even if I bumped the cruise speed to 20 kts and somewhere in the 200 - 220hp ballpark, any modern diesels with enough power to push the hull to 28+ kts should life a good life at cruise.
 
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