Have you flipped to the new refrigerant?

[Hippocampus]

Just wondering how people have handled the phase out of ozone killing refrigerants. Did you replace or refit your devices dependent on that? Or are you waiting for the need for a recharge before doing anything?

 

[rslifkin]

Generally I upgrade refrigerant containing stuff when there's either a compelling functional reason to or when something develops a problem that's not worth fixing (or provides an excuse to upgrade). Currently, all of our cars and the boat fridge run R-134a. I'm not sure what the house fridge uses. House and boat A/Cs are all R-410a.

 

[friz]

Which replacement refrigerant are you referring to? R-134A has been around for decades.

 

[JD5652]

I'm sticking with R22 until it gets prohibitively expensive.

 

[Hippocampus]

Thought as of this coming year there will be no way to get R22 at any cost. Is this wrong? Believe as of 1/1/2020 couldn’t be manufactured or imported into the US. See ads for it but understand stocks are just about depleted.

 

[O C Diver]

It's not something I worry about. I don't scrutinize what refrigerant my new appliance or air conditioner has and I don't tell the HVAC technician what to use in my system. I also don't replace items because they have the politically incorrect gas in them. I tend to focus more on future reliability of an item and it's energy efficiency.

Global warming is but a symptom of a much larger problem (Over population of the human race) that all the politically correct refrigerant in the world won't fix.

Ted

 

[porman]

Which replacement refrigerant are you referring to? R-134A has been around for decades.

R-134 is being phased out, can no longer be used after Jan 1st, 2024. The replacement seems to be HFO-1234yf (Hydrofluoroolefin (HFO)-1234yf)

 

[JD5652]

Thought as of this coming year there will be no way to get R22 at any cost. Is this wrong? Believe as of 1/1/2020 couldn’t be manufactured or imported into the US. See ads for it but understand stocks are just about depleted.

There is a LOT of misinformation about refrigerants "out there". A good bit of it being fueled by politically motivated sources.

The most prevalent refrigerant being supplied in consumer type systems today including marine is R-410a which is the preferred replacement for R-22. When I say "preferred" I mean from an overall technical perspective. R-410a is a blend of R-32 and R-125. R-22 is a "pure" refrigerant meaning it is NOT a blend.

I just had my Master State Room compressor replaced. My HVAC guy found a system that had the R-134a and put in R-22 so it is compatible with the rest of my systems on board. He had to add a drier to the system so it functioned properly. I have a total of five AC compressors and they all run R-22. Just so happens my freezers and refrigerators also run R-22.

There are significant stockpiles of R-22 that will last all our life times and maybe our kids lifetimes. The cost is not prohibitive now and is not expected to be prohibitive in the next 20 years at least.

 

[JD5652]

R-134 is being phased out, can no longer be used after Jan 1st, 2024. The replacement seems to be HFO-1234yf (Hydrofluoroolefin (HFO)-1234yf)

Can you please cite the source for this?

I am not aware of this at all. We design chiller systems for nuclear power and other similar industries and design with R-134a all the time as it is the techni ally preferred refrigerant for the type of industrial systems we design. Just submitted a study yesterday that recommended R-134a.

Thanks!

 

[psneeld]

There is a LOT of misinformation about refrigerants "out there". A good bit of it being fueled by politically motivated sources.

The most prevalent refrigerant being supplied in consumer type systems today including marine is R-410a which is the preferred replacement for R-22. When I say "preferred" I mean from an overall technical perspective. R-410a is a blend of R-32 and R-125. R-22 is a "pure" refrigerant meaning it is NOT a blend.

I just had my Master State Room compressor replaced. My HVAC guy found a system that had the R-134a and put in R-22 so it is compatible with the rest of my systems on board. He had to add a drier to the system so it functioned properly. I have a total of five AC compressors and they all run R-22. Just so happens my freezers and refrigerators also run R-22.

There are significant stockpiles of R-22 that will last all our life times and maybe our kids lifetimes. The cost is not prohibitive now and is not expected to be prohibitive in the next 20 years at least.

I have heard the same....ask for recycled Freon and it is available. Maybe some guys don't want to used it and sell you on whatever it costs to change....but it's not because they can't get it, for some reason they just don't want to.


To me is a system is still in reasonable shape....recharge rather than replace units.



What I have read is the stockpile of previously used Freon is growing as systems are shut down, there is still a market for it and it either can't be destroyed or it is more costly than storing it.

 

[Hippocampus]

Great information. This place is a wonderful resource given the knowledgeable people on it.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

It's not something I worry about. I don't scrutinize what refrigerant my new appliance or air conditioner has and I don't tell the HVAC technician what to use in my system. I also don't replace items because they have the politically incorrect gas in them. I tend to focus more on future reliability of an item and it's energy efficiency.

Global warming is but a symptom of a much larger problem (Over population of the human race) that all the politically correct refrigerant in the world won't fix.

Ted

Good point Ted.

When my Dometic 12K reverse air unit was replaced, the tech put R22 back in. The sticker on the side of the unit stated use R22. The tech stated R@@ was much more efficient than the new stuff. This was outside my realm of expertise, so I stated go for it.

 

[porman]

Can you please cite the source for this?

I am not aware of this at all. We design chiller systems for nuclear power and other similar industries and design with R-134a all the time as it is the techni ally preferred refrigerant for the type of industrial systems we design. Just submitted a study yesterday that recommended R-134a.

Thanks!

I can't speak to the nuclear industry, which must have different rules than for the rest of us. Here are two links to the EPA. One is about R134-a and motor vehicles and the other is about R22 and home use, which probably covers boats too. I did get the phase out date wrong. https://www.epa.gov/mvac/refrigerant-transition-environmental-impacts
https://www.epa.gov/sites/productio...c_refrigerants_to_protect_the_ozone_layer.pdf

 

[Mermaid]

Thought as of this coming year there will be no way to get R22 at any cost. Is this wrong? Believe as of 1/1/2020 couldn’t be manufactured or imported into the US. See ads for it but understand stocks are just about depleted.

I’ve been holding onto a green tank of R-22. I wonder what that thing is worth now?

 

[JD5652]

About $175...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/R22-refrig...864552&hash=item362c06c8da:g:-60AAOSwEHpZJja5

 

[JD5652]

I can't speak to the nuclear industry, which must have different rules than for the rest of us. Here are two links to the EPA. One is about R134-a and motor vehicles and the other is about R22 and home use, which probably covers boats too. I did get the phase out date wrong. https://www.epa.gov/mvac/refrigerant-transition-environmental-impacts
https://www.epa.gov/sites/productio...c_refrigerants_to_protect_the_ozone_layer.pdf

Thanks for the references.

This is a good example of where it can get confusing on the regs.

The first reference states that NEWLY MANUFACTURED vehicles cannot use systems requiring R-134a. Seems to be limited to vehicles only. However, the refrigerant itself (R-134a) does not have a phaseout date. It will be around for quite a long time. And yes, there are no limitations or phaseouts of industrial compressor manufacturers using R-134a that I am aware of.

The second reference states the following,

"Because R-22 depletes the ozone layer, production and import was further limited in 2010. In 2020, R-22 will no longer be produced or imported.
After 2020, only recovered, recycled, or reclaimed supplies of R-22 will be available.

The production (not use) of R-22 is being phased out. You are not required to stop using R-22 air conditioners nor to replace existing equipment."

To my knowledge, there are significant existing stockpiles of R-22 to outlast our lifetime. And R-22 is still being recovered from systems that are changing to different refrigerants. Since equipment with R-134a is still available.. and you can substitute R-22 in a compressor designed for R-134a, there is technically no real concerns with use of R-22 or R-134a into the foreseeable future.

 

[porman]

Thanks for the clarification JD. I should have mentioned that my experience with R12 and R134a is from an automotive background. I imagine there will be a lot of both R22 and R134a around for quite a while. Back when vehicles went to R134a and I needed a license to buy R12, I remember seeing pallets of small R12 cans for sale to anybody at a big chain automotive store. Go figure.

 

[GoneFarrell]

por, same deal I see in baja, where I spend the winter. No shortages of refrigerant there.

 

[motion30]

There are r22 replacements that are readily available and seem to work fine in the old units. I do believe the original r22 is still available but at a much higher price than it replacements

 

[fgarriso]

About $175...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/R22-refrig...864552&hash=item362c06c8da:g:-60AAOSwEHpZJja5

Looks like a SCAM to me

 

[JD5652]

Looks like a SCAM to me

I personally did not see anything suspect about the ad... seller has almost 1500 units sold with a 99.5% positive rating...

Anyway... Take your choice of 100's more ... there's plenty of R-22 for sale out there....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/R22-refrig...544309?hash=item5dad5d7f35:g:aAAAAOSw049e-8LH

https://www.ebay.com/itm/R22-R-22-R...387342?hash=item2cecdbc70e:g:wv8AAOSwCK1fFvad

https://www.ebay.com/itm/R22-Refrig...702245?hash=item28a4bf73a5:g:JCgAAOSwYJpfW81c

 

[FF]

Gee,

I thought the "Ozone Hole" con went out with "Peak OIL" scares .

The best I could learn about the "ozone hole" was if ALL the ozone departed it would like moving 125 miles south.

Someone from NYC could move to Atlantic City with the same "harm".

A mixture of about 75% propane and 25% butane was a common replacement for F12 and is actually a better refrigerant , but as it is flammable a problem for home owners.

 

[Open-d]

Looks like a SCAM to me

The intire refrigerants harming the environment is a SCAM.

 

[FF]

"The entire refrigerants harming the environment is a SCAM."


It is a very harmful scam as many of the replacements are not as efficient as the old stuff so more electric is used by every device .

 

[Hippocampus]

“HFCs do not damage the ozone layer. Unfortunately, they do damage the climate. Seriously. As a greenhouse gas they are between 1,000 to 9,000 times more powerful than carbon dioxide. A small HFC leak has big consequences, and cooling technologies can and do escape. HFCs leak into the atmosphere during production and servicing, and most importantly, when they are disposed of at the end of their working lives“
From google. Apparently also have extremely long 1/2 lives as they don’t degrade easily.

 

[OldDan1943]

Just because it is "prohibited" doesn't mean you MUST replace the compressor.
You can use the existing A/C until it no longer functions.

 

[rslifkin]

"The entire refrigerants harming the environment is a SCAM."


It is a very harmful scam as many of the replacements are not as efficient as the old stuff so more electric is used by every device .

To some extent, the efficiency differences between refrigerants can be mitigated in systems design. Some need a larger evap or condenser, or different operating pressures, etc. That's why changing from one to another in the same system often comes with a loss of performance, but the performance comes back with some changes to systems design.