How down is too down

[virtualema]

Little 29' express cruiser, 9,000lbs. I've added a bigger anchor and more chain, replacing old factory tackle. Added maybe 75 lbs to dow.

I'm definitely down in the bow now. Not sure yet exactly how much. How much is too much?

Thx,
Evans

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. How much is too much is hard to say without seeing it. Can you post some photos, preferably before and after. What about going to a lightweight anchor like a Fortress and HT chain in a smaller size? Hard to say without specs.

 

[FF]

A boat at displacement speeds sometimes runs faster with a slight bow down , as it will pull less water behind.

If the boat can still pick up the bow and climb up on top , the cruise speed may have to be higher to stay up .

 

[Arc]

I added a thruster battery , 100’ chain and a larger anchor. All in one season. When I am low on fuel the steering got weird. I had to remove the chain to get back to normal. I try to keeps tanks more then half full.

 

[Iggy]

Little 29' express cruiser, 9,000lbs. I've added a bigger anchor and more chain, replacing old factory tackle. Added maybe 75 lbs to dow.

I'm definitely down in the bow now. Not sure yet exactly how much. How much is too much?

Thx,
Evans

I had the same type of boat. I had 30' of chain with a #10 Rocna. Never had a problem.

 

[oscar]

How does it handle? Arc, above, clearly had an issue. If it handles fine, you're fine.

 

[backinblue]

Little 29' express cruiser, 9,000lbs. I've added a bigger anchor and more chain, replacing old factory tackle. Added maybe 75 lbs to dow.

I'm definitely down in the bow now. Not sure yet exactly how much. How much is too much?

Thx,
Evans

How much chain is "more chain" and why did you need to add it? Is your rode all chain?

 

[Larry M]

How about your counter tops, floors or where you sleep? Do they slope toward the bow? If they’re level or bow up your good.

 

[rslifkin]

If you're concerned, it's time to start looking for anything that can be moved aft (or removed from the bow).



Different hulls will have a different point where being nose heavy presents a problem. In general, bow down will handle worse in following seas. On a planing hull, bow heavy might burn more fuel up on plane, but possibly less at low speed.

 

[virtualema]

Thx all

Went from 15' of chain to 90' (with 170' of line). Just did it, noticed the bow was down below the waterline. If my calculations are correct, more like 65 lbs added. Old anchor/rode are now in the engine compartment aft, almost at the transom.

Going out this evening for a weekend cruise. Will consider all above in assessing "how down is too down". In Seattle - gotta love it when a great May weather window coincides with a planned cruise!

Thx again.

 

[backinblue]

Went from 15' of chain to 90' (with 170' of line). Just did it, noticed the bow was down below the waterline. If my calculations are correct, more like 65 lbs added. Old anchor/rode are now in the engine compartment aft, almost at the transom.

Going out this evening for a weekend cruise. Will consider all above in assessing "how down is too down". In Seattle - gotta love it when a great May weather window coincides with a planned cruise!

Thx again.

You could easily lose half of that 90' of chain or more, especially with a bigger anchor. Unless there is a good reason for 90' of chain with a chain/nylon rode, or you need it for the anchoring depth, that would be an easy way to lose some weight and should not have a big impact on your anchor holding. In fact, a "rule of thumb" is that approx 1 boat's length of chain is normally sufficient in a chain/nylon rode. What type and size of anchors are the old and new?

 

[Ski in NC]

Do you run at planing speed or at displacement speed? If running planing speed, weight fwd means more power needed. Mostly...

Also a PITA having to deal with bottom paint line and boot stripe line not being true to WL.

I'd consider shedding the weight. I run with about 10' of 3/8" chain, the rest is 5/8" nylon and a #23 Fortress just to keep weight down.

 

[rslifkin]

If running planing speed, weight fwd means more power needed. Mostly...

Generally true in my experience. Moving weight forward on my boat definitely slows it down at a given power setting on plane regardless of what you do with trim.

 

[backinblue]

Do you run at planing speed or at displacement speed? If running planing speed, weight fwd means more power needed. Mostly...

Also a PITA having to deal with bottom paint line and boot stripe line not being true to WL.

I'd consider shedding the weight. I run with about 10' of 3/8" chain, the rest is 5/8" nylon and a #23 Fortress just to keep weight down.

Hi Ski,

Not disagreeing but could you please explain more about the power vs. planing speed issue? Reason I ask is because more weight forward would get you on plane faster I would think. Also, when I am running at planing speeds, my bow is pretty high and I need quite heavy trim tabs to bring it down and speed it up. Thanks!

 

[rslifkin]

Hi Ski,

Not disagreeing but could you please explain more about the power vs. planing speed issue? Reason I ask is because more weight forward would get you on plane faster I would think. Also, when I am running at planing speeds, my bow is pretty high and I need quite heavy trim tabs to bring it down and speed it up. Thanks!

It depends a bit on the hull, but at least on my boat, moving weight aft gets the hull higher out of the water. You end up needing to drop the trim tabs further to reach best speed trim, which means more total lift (hull lift + tab lift), so the boat runs a little higher in the water. Getting the boat up higher reduces drag more than the additional tab drag adds.

 

[Ski in NC]

It depends on how fast you end up going. If barely planing, like 14-15kts, weight fwd can be an advantage. That "over the hump" speed can be lower. But if you are planing faster, like 20+kts, then that advantage is gone. Weight fwd increases wetted surface area.

On my ride I usually run 19-20kts with cockpit fuel tanks maybe 1/4 full. When going on a long trip, I may fill the tanks (300gal) and the difference is noticeable. When full it takes more power to bust over, and bow is a bit higher, but once up to 19-20 engine is at slightly less rpm than with light tanks.

 

[virtualema]

The admiral

We don't have a lot of anchoring experience, but enough to know the wife is a nervous sleeper when on the hook. Upsized a bit more than necessary no doubt for peace of mind. Though it is a planning hull (sorry, but I'm am a trawler owner wanna be!), she also doesn't like to run at speed much. It definitely is a bit more nerve wracking than a nice, liesurely pace; especially in the Puget Sound, where there has been known to be a log or two. So, I don't think it will have a big running impact as we mostly travel at trawler speeds; and we should both sleep a bit better - if she sleeps better, I sleep better. Multiple anchor drag alarms should help to.

 

[backinblue]

We don't have a lot of anchoring experience, but enough to know the wife is a nervous sleeper when on the hook. Upsized a bit more than necessary no doubt for peace of mind. Though it is a planning hull (sorry, but I'm am a trawler owner wanna be!), she also doesn't like to run at speed much. It definitely is a bit more nerve wracking than a nice, liesurely pace; especially in the Puget Sound, where there has been known to be a log or two. So, I don't think it will have a big running impact as we mostly travel at trawler speeds; and we should both sleep a bit better - if she sleeps better, I sleep better. Multiple anchor drag alarms should help to.

Again I would like to ask, what was the original anchor (type and weight) and what did you upsize to? A properly sized and properly set anchor should be very secure in anything but very extreme conditions. Adding extra chain doesn't hurt, but also doesn't help a real lot in the lengths you are talking about. If you have a good setup and deploy it properly you should trust it and sleep soundly. If you can afford the decrease in rode length, you could lose a good deal of that chain and save weight and still be secure. BTW, saving weight anywhere on a boat is always a good idea! Anyway, welcome to the forum and know that all advice is well-intentioned even if you don't agree with it all the time.

 

[rslifkin]

Again I would like to ask, what was the original anchor (type and weight) and what did you upsize to? A properly sized and properly set anchor should be very secure in anything but very extreme conditions. Adding extra chain doesn't hurt, but also doesn't help a real lot in the lengths you are talking about. If you have a good setup and deploy it properly you should trust it and sleep soundly. If you can afford the decrease in rode length, you could lose a good deal of that chain and save weight and still be secure. BTW, saving weight anywhere on a boat is always a good idea! Anyway, welcome to the forum and know that all advice is well-intentioned even if you don't agree with it all the time.

Extra chain isn't necessarily for better holding, but in plenty of areas it's necessary for abrasion resistance.

 

[Lollygag1]

Where are you going that you need that much chain? I would think most NE waters 15-25' would suffice. Not that having more chain is a bad thing but if weight is an issue you could lose 1/2 the chain and be in fine shape.

 

[backinblue]

As an aside, a little historical story if I may. A lot of my early boating was in a 27' O'Day sailboat, the only boat I purchased brand new. Being young and fearless (and mostly broke), I did most all work myself including drilling 2" holes in the bottom of a brand new boat to mount transducers and 6" holes in the bulkhead to mount displays. It's easy when you are young and don't know the risks. All worked well, but I digress.....

Regarding anchoring, I always prided myself on proper deploying and setting my anchor and anchored 95% whenever away from home. My setup was nothing extraordinary, whatever came with the boat. A Danforth and a short length of chain and the rest nylon and no windlass.

One memory comes to mind. Anchored in the harbor at Fisher Island in Long Island Sound. Not far off my stern was a stone wall. Middle of the night, pretty big thunderstorms developed. Winds were pushing me toward the stone wall. I sat up for a good part of the night hoping the anchor would hold, some of the time with the engine running just in case. Open cockpit in rain gear from about midnight til 4 AM. Bottom line, we survived the night and the next morning it took all the strength in my young body to pull the anchor and break it free from the mud it was deeply buried in. If I had known how secured we were, I would have slept w/o a worry.

If you have adequate ground tackle, set it properly, and sleep with no worries. With experience, you will gain confidence. Don't over-compensate for lack of experience with over-sized ground tackle.

 

[backinblue]

Extra chain isn't necessarily for better holding, but in plenty of areas it's necessary for abrasion resistance.

I agree, that's why I asked the reason for adding so much chain. Not against it if needed, but some just figure "if some is good, more is better"

 

[virtualema]

Hmm...

Not really sure what to say on the amount of chain. I know a lot of people think should have all chain. I don't subscribe to that. As noted, I don't have a ton of experience. the amount of chain was based on accumulated research, including monitoring this forum. Unless there is a downside - such as making me too low in the bow, hence the post; I'd rather error on the side of caution, and I know my wife would for sure.

The original anchor was a QCR plough knock off, something called a Kodiak. They are on later model Bayliners and SeaRay cruisers I believe. 20 lbs. Again based more on research than experience; but I don't think plough type anchors are all that good. The ground tackle worked OK with our limited anchoring; but then again it has been pretty sheltered and we haven't have to deal with any unexpected weather. As we've gained experience, we are looking to be a bit more adventurous this summer.

Went to a #35 Mantus M2. It is big. Per their sizing chart, probably a size more than needed - unless we get caught in serious weather, in which case we've messed up but would be glad to have it; but it didn't seem like 10 lbs (#25 was more in line with their recommendation for my size boat) could make that much difference.

The chain is DIN766 7mm. (Why Bayliner!! Hard to find.). Didn't actually weight it, but per the specs it should only be 50lbs or so more than the chain that was on there. Again, didn't think that would make much difference.

 

[rgano]

Something which has not been mentioned here is the adverse impact on seaworthiness of heavy weights in the ends of a vessel. Watch how the boat handles a seaway to ensure you are not pitching more heavily than you are comfy with.

 

[backinblue]

Good anchor choice and certainly larger than you should ever need. Knowing that, there is no need for 90' of chain. It's not going to help your anchor hold and the downside as you noted is added weight. There are reasons where you might need more chain based on certain anchoring location, but that doesn't seem the case for you. Sounds like you just figured more is better w/o wanting to go all chain. You already have an oversized anchor hanging at the very end of the bow. You can easily cut out some chain to loose weight and still be confident that you'll be securely anchored. You could temporarilly remove all the chain from the boat and see how it sits. You can simulate a length of chain by adding some weight where the chain normaly is. Somewhere around 30' of chain should work great but you could also go +/- 10 ft from that if it works for you. I'm not saying that chain has zero effect on anchoring, but with the anchor you've chosen, going from 90' to 30' should have a negligible effect if you properly set your anchor.

From anchoring.com:

Along with the rope, you should also have a smaller amount of chain between the rope and the anchor. This chain will keep your rope from rubbing against the seabed and also creates the optimal angle between your rode and the seabed. The general rule of thumb is that you want approximately 1' of chain for every 1' of boat. So a 30' boat would want 30' of chain. However, often certain constraints such as weight and locker room will not allow this ideal chain amount so in these situations you should have at least 10-15' of anchor chain for the reasons mentioned above. For boaters anchoring in extreme conditions and/or for extended periods of time, you will want about 1 foot of chain for every 6 feet of rope. The reason for the different requirements is that, in theory, by having 1 foot of chain for every 6 feet of rope, an optimal angle between the rode and the seabed will be achieved.