Nordhavn

[Junctionboy]

I have been “boat shopping” for the last 2 years, basically an online search and research project— subscribing to YouTube channels etc. Orignally I saw sailors going to the Marquesas on catamarans and thought “man thats what I want to do.”
So the wife and I went to the Miami boat show and looked at some of these big floating condos. I loved the space and the livability of these floated condos. But, I didnt love the construction or the fit and finish. New boats that creaked and had cored bottoms and just didnt seem to be super sea worthy.
My next bit was on power boats and sportfishers and I then found Trawlers they looked good and seemed to be able to do all things well and there boats of all ages-but man the prices are all over the place. I then stumbled on Nordhavn they looked good and I saw reports that they were very seaworthy but not the be all and the end all I also saw reports that they were the be all and end all. But overall they have very high marks for fit and finish and seaworthiness and man are they expensive even in resale.
I see other boats that appear to be in the same class (maybe they are not) with similar features and similar reviews and of the same age— they are much cheaper.
At fist I figured it was a strong dealership keeping and reselling the boats and keeping the prices high— better resale = big selling point. I seems to be one of the only boats I have seen that just does not depreciate that much — maybe they are far more expensive than i realize new and in comparison to there competition and its all relative. Not trying to start a war— but am I missing something here? Why are some of these 20-30 year old boats so much more expensive than the competition? Forgive me if this is a touchy subject or its been covered before— I didnt do a lot of searching on the subject.

 

[DavidM]

Which Marquesas do you want to go to? The ones in the Florida Keys or the ones in French Polynesia? If it is the latter then you do want a Nordhavn and its tough, dual redundancy build. If you just want to go to the Keys, then almost any trawler will work. A Mainship at half the price will get you there almost as well as a Nordhavn.

Nordhavns and a few other blue water trawlers are worth their higher price if you want to cross oceans. If you just want to fool around in near coastal waters, almost any trawler will work.

David

 

[Junctionboy]

French Polynesia as in the South Pacific

 

[DavidM]

French Polynesia as in the South Pacific

Then you need a Nordhavn, some Selene's, a Krogen, a Diesel Duck. All expensive, well built trawlers.

David

 

[bligh]

I have been “boat shopping” for the last 2 years, basically an online search and research project— subscribing to YouTube channels etc. Orignally I saw sailors going to the Marquesas on catamarans and thought “man thats what I want to do.”
So the wife and I went to the Miami boat show and looked at some of these big floating condos. I loved the space and the livability of these floated condos. But, I didnt love the construction or the fit and finish. New boats that creaked and had cored bottoms and just didnt seem to be super sea worthy.
My next bit was on power boats and sportfishers and I then found Trawlers they looked good and seemed to be able to do all things well and there boats of all ages-but man the prices are all over the place. I then stumbled on Nordhavn they looked good and I saw reports that they were very seaworthy but not the be all and the end all I also saw reports that they were the be all and end all. But overall they have very high marks for fit and finish and seaworthiness and man are they expensive even in resale.
I see other boats that appear to be in the same class (maybe they are not) with similar features and similar reviews and of the same age— they are much cheaper.
At fist I figured it was a strong dealership keeping and reselling the boats and keeping the prices high— better resale = big selling point. I seems to be one of the only boats I have seen that just does not depreciate that much — maybe they are far more expensive than i realize new and in comparison to there competition and its all relative. Not trying to start a war— but am I missing something here? Why are some of these 20-30 year old boats so much more expensive than the competition? Forgive me if this is a touchy subject or its been covered before— I didnt do a lot of searching on the subject.

They all depreciated before Covid. I expect they will depreciate after Covid as well.

 

[MYTraveler]

The prices of Nordhavns, both new and used, reflect the interesection of supply and demand. Nordhavn has done a tremendous job creating demand from a large group of prospective buyers who envision themselves crossing oceans, and has persuaded that a Nordhavn is the best boat for that mission. You pay a premium for that "excess" demand. If you will use the boat to cross an ocean, it may will be worth the price. But if you are more of a coastal cruiser (meaning, for example, that you want to be able to go from Panama to SE Alaska, but will have the latitude to wait for weather windows), there are other boats that would serve the mission as well, or perhaps better, for less money.

 

[tiltrider1]

Nordhavns are not over priced for what you get. They might be overbuilt for 99% of the boating missions. This means in 99% of the missions a cheaper boat will do the job equally and even possibly better.

Now Dashew took exception to the Nordhavn concept and built what they felt was a superior concept. Not surprising, their boat is no cheaper. Kaddy Krogen also took a different view and built a boat that is considerably cheaper to cross oceans in. It is not a cheap boat either. While it claims to do the same mission as a Nordhavn many will argue over weather it meets the same safety standards of Nordhavn.

There are many boats out there that emulate a Nordhavn but they only meet my Coastal Cruising standards and not my ocean crossing standards.

I personally have no desire to cross the ocean. The most I plan to do is run the West Coast from Alaska to Mexico. For that I certainly do not need a Nordhavn.

 

[CaptainSEA]

Nordhavn prices are justified by different factors, indeed quality but also a very strong marketing which is both efficient and costly...

 

[magna 6882]

We looked at nordhavn when we were shopping and it was obvious the extras that were added for ocean crossings but i couldn't get a good feel for the extra cost. The extra stuff they had seemed to come at higher cost then i would expect.We ended up with a new np45 and that checks all our boxes. I wouldn't cross an ocean anyway.

 

[twistedtree]

I'm on my second Nordhavn, and built both of them new.


As a new build, comparing to other boats of similar quality, they are mostly LESS expensive, not more. Now when I say similar quality, I don't necessarily mean built for the same purpose, but rather with the same quality of components, build details, fit and finish, and equipment. So Krogens, Flemings, Grand Banks, etc.


Then as brokerage boats, I think they definitely hold their value better than most other boats. This is why went looking at used boats, Nordhavns will stand out as more expensive.

 

[Simi 60]

I have been “boat shopping” for the last 2 years, basically an online search and research project— subscribing to YouTube channels etc. Orignally I saw sailors going to the Marquesas on catamarans and thought “man thats what I want to do.”
So the wife and I went to the Miami boat show and looked at some of these big floating condos. I loved the space and the livability of these floated condos. But, I didnt love the construction or the fit and finish. New boats that creaked and had cored bottoms and just didnt seem to be super sea worthy. .

Do you have any prior large multihull experience?

 

[NWpilot]

Like the posters above are saying, the Nordhavn is a true ocean going boat. There is a U-Tube channel called MV Freedom with a couple that live aboard a 43' Nordhavn in Seattle. They have only gone out in the ocean one time from Seattle to Portland, OR. Below is a video tour of their boat.

From what I've learned the Nordhavn's have tried to cover all contingencies and have great redundancy with many duplicate systems. Another boat I'm impressed with, but clear out of my price range, is the Fleming, a true ocean going vessel. The founder bought hull # 1, a 65' vessel and has traveled over 50,000 miles of open water. You can find his channel here.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FlemingYachts/videos

 

[twistedtree]

Like the posters above are saying, the Nordhavn is a true ocean going boat. There is a U-Tube channel called MV Freedom with a couple that live aboard a 43' Nordhavn in Seattle. They have only gone out in the ocean one time from Seattle to Portland, OR. Below is a video tour of their boat.

From what I've learned the Nordhavn's have tried to cover all contingencies and have great redundancy with many duplicate systems. Another boat I'm impressed with, but clear out of my price range, is the Fleming, a true ocean going vessel. The founder bought hull # 1, a 65' vessel and has traveled over 50,000 miles of open water. You can find his channel here.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FlemingYachts/videos

I think the Flemings are more an extreme coastal cruiser. Wonderful boats, but most models don't have the range for an ocean crossing.

 

[mvweebles]

I think the Flemings are more an extreme coastal cruiser. Wonderful boats, but most models don't have the range for an ocean crossing.

Echo's my observation too. The Fleming 65 could certainly transit the Atlantic back/forth to the Med for example, but probably not the best choice for a circumnavigation.

TT - I think you made some excellent points in your previous posts on this thread.

• Due to their production nature, Nordhavn are a good value for what you get. Doing a custom one-off build of similar quality/size/equipment would be significantly more expensive.
  
• Because PAE has laser-focus on marketing, they have built a very solid resale market for their boats. The net result is their boats are expensive new, but hold a decent resale value so the TCO is relatively low (emphasis on "relatively"). The last Willard 40's are from 2000 and carried the same base price as the N40 at the time - around $400k. A circa 2000 W40 will languish at $200k, resale for a N40 is still strong and fetches close to $400k.

Peter

 

[woolf]

I think the Flemings are more an extreme coastal cruiser. Wonderful boats, but most models don't have the range for an ocean crossing.

That was our conclusion on the Flemings as well, after evaluation of a number of Flemings on the brokerage market.

The Nordhavns are a good choice when buying new, if the model/layout suits the search profile, as they hold their value particularly well at resale time.

Correspondingly, when searching for a used boat, a top quality custom build can have much better bang-for-the-buck than a Nordhavn.

 

[psneeld]

I am not sure which ones do and don't, but a lot of those sailing catamarans you thought were flimsy came across from South Africa on their own bottoms (at least the older ones did).

Hard to beat catamarans and deck space for lounging in the tropics.

 

[twistedtree]

Echo's my observation too. The Fleming 65 could certainly transit the Atlantic back/forth to the Med for example, but probably not the best choice for a circumnavigation.

I think it's a little light on fuel even for an Atlantic crossing. Maybe if you island-hopped Newfoundland, Greenland, Iceland, Fareo's, UK. And I'd be a bit uncomfortable with a non-displacement boat making such a trip.



Note that he has two boats, one in Europe and one in North America. So the PNW videos are on a different boat from the trip from the UK to Iceland. No crossing was made, as I understand it.

 

[phillippeterson]

Then you need a Nordhavn, some Selene's, a Krogen, a Diesel Duck. All expensive, well built trawlers.

David

Not sure how you can say a Diesel Duck is well built. They're not built by any one company. You buy the plans and have them built wherever. Some are not built as well as others.

 

[rslifkin]

I think it's a little light on fuel even for an Atlantic crossing. Maybe if you island-hopped Newfoundland, Greenland, Iceland, Fareo's, UK. And I'd be a bit uncomfortable with a non-displacement boat making such a trip.



Note that he has two boats, one in Europe and one in North America. So the PNW videos are on a different boat from the trip from the UK to Iceland. No crossing was made, as I understand it.

Flemings have crossed the Atlantic, but from what I can find, it's only been done a few times. The big thing is, if you want to go that far, it stops being a fast boat, as it doesn't have enough fuel unless you're going slow.

 

[Hippocampus]

Seahorse in China and the yard in Turkey build the buehler diesel ducks with a 2 at the end. Structural build quality is said to be excellent. So regardless of size if last number is 2 (382 or 462:etc.),they are from those yards to my understanding.
Not often discussed on this thread are the variety of quality NL Al and Fe transoceanic boats coming from builders like alubut, vryes and many others. Or Fe coming out of Southeast Asia.
Norhavn has much more market penetration in the US/Canada. From what I understand Europeans prefer steel/aluminum for that type of program.

 

[Simi 60]

Was following a guy who was very happy with the working trawler he got built in Vietnam.
Had a flash interior, easily be an expedition vessel

 

[Hippocampus]

Will say having been shopping and the vast majority of the smaller Nordhavns are set up and exclusively used in coastal or near shore settings. To use them at their design capabilities will require a very expensive refit. Then unless you burn more money you still will have old technologies on things like fins and such.
Many sell currently with the Covid heat in the market near or above original base boat price. Unless you really are doing (not intending to do) blue water they don’t make much sense. Nordhavn has responded to the way the majority of their smaller boats are actually used. Coastal and near shore. The lovely 41 and 51 reflect that reality. A boat that can do transoceanic passages but more optimized for how these boats are actually used. The buying public has responded with a long list of buyers putting money down to get a 41 in spite of the long waiting list. For just a bit more you can get a 475 rather than a 41 which in my eyes is a better passage making boat and nearly no wait.

 

[Hippocampus]

Simi who drew that vessel and where was it built ? Really a impressive boat.

 

[Simi 60]

No idea who drew it but it was done in Da Nang at Song Thu yard

http://www.songthu.com.vn/#



Damen operate out of there as well


https://www.damen.com/en/news/2014/03/damen_song_cam_shipyard_opened_in_vietnam

 

[twistedtree]

Flemings have crossed the Atlantic, but from what I can find, it's only been done a few times. The big thing is, if you want to go that far, it stops being a fast boat, as it doesn't have enough fuel unless you're going slow.

A crossing would absolutely be at displacement speeds. No other way to get the requisite mileage. I know of a 75 that has cross the Atlantic, but I haven't heard of a 55 or 65 doing it.

 

[rslifkin]

It sounds like at least one 55 has done it, although if I'm reading the article correctly (not enough coffee yet today), they carried bladder tanks and hopped via Bermuda and the Azores. https://www.flemingyachts.com/news/fleming-owners-travel-from-florida-to-europe-on-a-f55


It's definitely at the upper end of what that boat can do, but if that's the biggest ocean you want to cross, it sounds like it's an option. I'm not finding any stories of an F65 going all the way across the Atlantic though.

 

[Prospective]

The thing about powerboats is, if you set your primary goal as crossing the pacific via the Marquesas as an owner/operator, then the list of manufacturers/boats becomes VERY short. Nordhavn is obviously most common on the list, Selene, Krogen, and a handful of smaller and custom builders. But not much else. Unlike with sailboats where you could do it on almost anything, and comfortably/safely on a long list of boats. When you eliminate 1000mi + offshore passages from your wish list, things open up a lot.

 

[Hippocampus]

Actually if you look at the world market rather than just North America the powerboat list greatly expands. If you look at the list of sailboats that can do passage year after year comfortably and not just with a camping out lifestyle that list greatly contracts. There are very few sailboat manufacturers making purpose built blue water passage makers throughout the world. Just like with power 99% of the public has no use for such a boat and is unwilling to pay twice or three times the cost for a bluewater cruising boat. I sailed an Outbound 46’ outfitted for bluewater. For a third of the money could of had a Hunter or Beneteau which would have been a lovely coastal boat. Or gone a step up in the Beneteau brand line and gotten a good boat for passage but it probably wouldn’t hold up for decades and the resale would reflect that. I sold my Outbound for more than its initial base price after thousands of blue water miles. Older cruising sailboats were designed for a more universal use in mind. For decades now the market has gotten more segmented with designs more clearly optimized for intended use profile.

 

[Prospective]

Hippo..

Not sure the point you're trying to make here but I'll stand by my original comment regardless if looking in NA or around the world. The list of powerboats physically capable of transoceanic voyages without extreme modification is pretty short and includes only a handful of manufacturers and custom builders already named. The rest simply don't have the fuel range or stability to make the trip as anything less than a high risk proposition. Meanwhile lots of sailboats (beneteau, bavaria, jenneau, sabre, et al) have done significant ocean passages and circumnavigations with little difficulty.

Without looking at the actual lists (which I'm sure you are FAR more familiar with), I dare say that many if not the majority or participants in the ARC and Salty Dawg as examples, are predominantly coastal cruiser type sailboats that have been outfitted by the owners as passage makers. We can get in to a long debate as to whether these are appropriate vessels but the fact remains that it happens commonly. Yes, if you want a true purpose built blue water passagemaker sailboat like an Outbound (which is a good analog for a Nordhavn) or maybe a Garcia then that list gets short too. But the universe of Swans, Amels, Najads, Hallberg Rassey's, Pacific Seacrafts, Island Packets, Oysters, Hylases that can and have done it safely is a LOT of boats. And that's just monohulls.

So I think my original point that, if your purchase criteria includes transoceanic range and multiday passagemaking, the list of owner/operator power boats is MUCH shorter than what would be available with sailboats, is a valid one.

 

[Fletcher500]

The reality is roughly 90 plus percent of all boats sit in their slips and go out for periodic cocktail cruises and a lunch hook. Not judging, people are busy with life, work, kids, etc.

Retirement opens up a window to travel, but most boaters with Nordhavns and other passage makers still stay in their slip, or they do it for a year or two then tap out. People get busy, have other interests and they don’t want to invest the time and energy to do the distance stuff. I get it, it’s a lot of work, so it’s not worth going on longer distance runs (including longer distance coastal cruising) unless the owners are all in.