Puget Sound NDZ Survey

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

This rather long. I had a negative opinion.


https://confidential-survey.com/datafile/Communitysurvey7.htm

 

[Barabus]

I took it. Not sure how or where the answers go. Seems well thought out. Thanks ASD.

 

[GFC]

I took it. I wonder which Puget Sound tree hugger group put it out. I never did see any reference to who sponsored the survey.

 

[porman]

It was put out by the Washington State Dept of Ecology.

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

In the south sound the vast majority of boats on the water are trailerable I've never seen a type 3 head in any boat that would be routinely trailered... The more modest operators have a pee bucket, most guys don't bother with the bucket...

 

[wwestman]

They probably won't like my responses and will ignore them.

 

[RonR]

I have mixed feelings on this, yes we should all do our part. My vacu-flush system has no means to pump overboard beside a station.

But when they (city/county) dump 3-6 million gallons of untreated sewer in the water every time it rains hard and then blame some middle management guy over everything yet do nothing to fix the problem. And then turn around and point fingers at the boats....

Its not right.

 

[tiltrider1]

I have mixed feelings on this, yes we should all do our part. My vacu-flush system has no means to pump overboard beside a station.

But when they (city/county) dump 3-6 million gallons of untreated sewer in the water every time it rains hard and then blame some middle management guy over everything yet do nothing to fix the problem. And then turn around and point fingers at the boats....

Its not right.

This is really not a fair statement. King county, the worst offender, has been constructing a massive under ground storage facility to collect all run off for later treatment. This will stop the untreated dumps. This facility has been under construction for years and will still be many more years before completion but they are working the problem.

That said, it is clear that the department of ecology was taking a survey to determine how far they could go. Obviously by the questions, they have no concept of or simply don’t care about personal rights.

The best way to respond to this survey is to push the point of inaccessible and non functioning pump outs. The NDZ is granted on the basis of adequate pump outs. Our best bet is to claim there is an inadequate number of pump outs. This will at least steer them towards more pump outs and away from dye tablets.

 

[Portage_Bay]

This is really not a fair statement. King county, the worst offender, has been constructing a massive under ground storage facility to collect all run off for later treatment. This will stop the untreated dumps. This facility has been under construction for years and will still be many more years before completion but they are working the problem.

That said, it is clear that the department of ecology was taking a survey to determine how far they could go. Obviously by the questions, they have no concept of or simply don’t care about personal rights.

The best way to respond to this survey is to push the point of inaccessible and non functioning pump outs. The NDZ is granted on the basis of adequate pump outs. Our best bet is to claim there is an inadequate number of pump outs. This will at least steer them towards more pump outs and away from dye tablets.

That was my impression also. While I support the NDZ in principle DOE needs to understand that for the NDZ to be successful they need to work WITH us not AGAINST us.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

This is really not a fair statement. King county, the worst offender, has been constructing a massive under ground storage facility to collect all run off for later treatment. This will stop the untreated dumps. This facility has been under construction for years and will still be many more years before completion but they are working the problem.

That said, it is clear that the department of ecology was taking a survey to determine how far they could go. Obviously by the questions, they have no concept of or simply don’t care about personal rights.

The best way to respond to this survey is to push the point of inaccessible and non functioning pump outs. The NDZ is granted on the basis of adequate pump outs. Our best bet is to claim there is an inadequate number of pump outs. This will at least steer them towards more pump outs and away from dye tablets.

That was my impression also. While I support the NDZ in principle DOE needs to understand that for the NDZ to be successful they need to work WITH us not AGAINST us.

Sorry guys I don't support the NDZ. It's targeting a small part of the community (recreational boats) as a "feel good" policy and has zero affect of raw sewage in Puget Sound. It's just not Seattle, its Tacoma, Bellingham etc pumping millions and millions of gallons of raw sewage into Puget Sound. Every time it happens they get fined a few dollars which is passed on to the consumer.

The next step, as indicated in the survey, is the State forcing you to put dye in your tank.

So the statement is a very fair statement. But this is still in court and with any luck the NDZ will be eliminated.

 

[hollywood8118]

Sorry guys I don't support the NDZ. It's targeting a small part of the community (recreational boats) as a "feel good" policy and has zero affect of raw sewage in Puget Sound. It's just not Seattle, its Tacoma, Bellingham etc pumping millions and millions of gallons of raw sewage into Puget Sound. Every time it happens they get fined a few dollars which is passed on to the consumer.

The next step, as indicated in the survey, is the State forcing you to put dye in your tank.

So the statement is a very fair statement. But this is still in court and with any luck the NDZ will be eliminated.

I couldn't agree more, It's a BS law that the Enviro nuts got passed on all us rich fat cat yachties!.

Hollywood

 

[Portage_Bay]

Sorry guys I don't support the NDZ. It's targeting a small part of the community (recreational boats) as a "feel good" policy and has zero affect of raw sewage in Puget Sound. It's just not Seattle, its Tacoma, Bellingham etc pumping millions and millions of gallons of raw sewage into Puget Sound. Every time it happens they get fined a few dollars which is passed on to the consumer.

The next step, as indicated in the survey, is the State forcing you to put dye in your tank.

So the statement is a very fair statement. But this is still in court and with any luck the NDZ will be eliminated.

That too is my concern and objection. I don't want the poo police coming aboard and putting dye in my heads looking for minuscule leaks, which of course they will find. I have holding tanks, I have my "Y" valves locked out, I use pumpouts. They can check the "Y" valve lock out. Request, not require, me to keep a log of pumpouts. That's enough.

But I'm going to disagree with you on the need for recreational boats to control their sewage discharge because municipal treatment plants fail at times. I recall the days of seeing "yacht fish" in popular anchorages when heads simply discharged overboard. Just because it's macerated doesn't make it any less offensive.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

But I'm going to disagree with you on the need for recreational boats to control their sewage discharge because municipal treatment plants fail at times. I recall the days of seeing "yacht fish" in popular anchorages when heads simply discharged overboard. Just because it's macerated doesn't make it any less offensive.

We already have a federal law that prohibits dumping within 3nm of shore.

A new law of restrictive policy is not going to stop the "yacht fish." Even then the yacht fish have zero impact on the water quality in Puget Sound.

Just about any LEO (to include the dog catcher) in the NDZ has regulatory right to board your vessel to check your "Y" valve.

 

[SteveK]

That too is my concern and objection. I don't want the poo police coming aboard and putting dye in my heads looking for minuscule leaks, which of course they will find. I have holding tanks, I have my "Y" valves locked out, I use pumpouts. They can check the "Y" valve lock out. Request, not require, me to keep a log of pumpouts. That's enough.

But I'm going to disagree with you on the need for recreational boats to control their sewage discharge because municipal treatment plants fail at times. I recall the days of seeing "yacht fish" in popular anchorages when heads simply discharged overboard. Just because it's macerated doesn't make it any less offensive.

when holding tanks became mandatory, it was to make possible no direct overboard in marinas and anchorages. Once that went over well as most agreed with the clean anchorage idea, then the enviro people went a step further. At first we had only pump outs, but we did not have enough and reasonably located PO. So they designed a 3 mile offshore rule in which OK to empty the tanks. For most even that was not too inconvenient crossing the straight there was plenty of places to unload.
Within the Gulf Islands or San Juans that is more difficult.
Imagine my surprise when I needed to empty the tank and the nearest PO was closed for the winter. To the regs, I discovered that IF a PO is not within reasonable distance, "go ahead and discharge in the deepest, fastest current while underway". It seems since PO did not meet a potential demand the gov relaxed the rules. This is Canada, what about the US?

 

[Beaverlake]

Since when can any LEO board my boat without probable cause? (Excepting Coast Guard safety checks.)

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Since when can any LEO board my boat without probable cause? (Excepting Coast Guard safety checks.)

Read the law. PC is no longer needed within the NDZ and can board as checking enforcement of locked out "Y" valves, thru-hull, and switches.

There is no comparison to Canada. I can legally dump just about anywhere.

 

[Portage_Bay]

We already have a federal law that prohibits dumping within 3nm of shore.

A new law of restrictive policy is not going to stop the "yacht fish." Even then the yacht fish have zero impact on the water quality in Puget Sound.

Just about any LEO (to include the dog catcher) in the NDZ has regulatory right to board your vessel to check your "Y" valve.

Dog catcher? A bit of an exaggeration perhaps?



And to say that recreational boat sewage discharge has zero impact on Puget Sound water quality? Really? It's accurate to say it has less impact than treatment plant overflows, but not at all accurate to say it has zero impact.

 

[tiltrider1]

There are many points trying to be made here but there is also a lot of misunderstanding on how we got here. Is the NDZ over reaching? Everyone here thinks so. Pointing your finger at the big cities and saying look what they are dumping is not understanding the big picture. No city was dumping until they tied all the street run off to the sewer system. This makes for some problems but the sound is cleaner for it. All the named cities are working to build storage capacity to prevent this in the future. The cities and Ecology have a plan and it’s a waste of breath to try to use these over flows as an excuse to leave boaters alone.

When the Feds created the 3 mile dump limit they inadvertently created a loop hole. The loophole allows boats to dump so many parts per million of raw sewage per hour. Guess what, the boating community exploited that loop hole and many of these so called treatment systems actually just dump raw sewage continually at a measured pace. While there are very few boats that use these systems none the less this became a burr in ecology’s saddle.

Now let’s get down to the real truth. There are no holding tank cops. Ecology is making a lot of noise to scare us and the best thing we can do is scream about a lack of pump outs because that directly affects their NDZ status.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Another thing to think about. Yes, we boaters are small potatoes compared to King County's West Point overflows. But the West Point location flushes the sewage out to sea fairly quickly and the overflows are infrequent. We boaters on the other hand have the ability to spread our sewage all over the sound in places that don't flush well and can do so at all times. Some parts of Puget Sound only flush out a few times per year.

I think tiltrider1 is on the right track.

.........
Ecology is making a lot of noise to scare us and the best thing we can do is scream about a lack of pump outs because that directly affects their NDZ status.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Dog catcher? A bit of an exaggeration perhaps?



And to say that recreational boat sewage discharge has zero impact on Puget Sound water quality? Really? It's accurate to say it has less impact than treatment plant overflows, but not at all accurate to say it has zero impact.

There are many points trying to be made here but there is also a lot of misunderstanding on how we got here. Is the NDZ over reaching? Everyone here thinks so. Pointing your finger at the big cities and saying look what they are dumping is not understanding the big picture. No city was dumping until they tied all the street run off to the sewer system. This makes for some problems but the sound is cleaner for it. All the named cities are working to build storage capacity to prevent this in the future. The cities and Ecology have a plan and it’s a waste of breath to try to use these over flows as an excuse to leave boaters alone.

When the Feds created the 3 mile dump limit they inadvertently created a loop hole. The loophole allows boats to dump so many parts per million of raw sewage per hour. Guess what, the boating community exploited that loop hole and many of these so called treatment systems actually just dump raw sewage continually at a measured pace. While there are very few boats that use these systems none the less this became a burr in ecology’s saddle.

Now let’s get down to the real truth. There are no holding tank cops. Ecology is making a lot of noise to scare us and the best thing we can do is scream about a lack of pump outs because that directly affects their NDZ status.

Another thing to think about. Yes, we boaters are small potatoes compared to King County's West Point overflows. But the West Point location flushes the sewage out to sea fairly quickly and the overflows are infrequent. We boaters on the other hand have the ability to spread our sewage all over the sound in places that don't flush well and can do so at all times. Some parts of Puget Sound only flush out a few times per year.

I think tiltrider1 is on the right track.

I ain't drinking the Kool-Aid!

Comparing millions and millions of gallons of raw untreated sewage to the a very few recreational boaters who actually dump overboard is ridiculous and not at all the reality. Even if there was a way to actually count how many gallons are dumped overboard by boats, it still would come close to what Seattle, Tacoma and others put in the Puget Sound waters.

Maybe not the dog catcher, but there is or will be, enforcement by LEOs and the law gives communities to hire and create holding take cops. USCG has bailed out on this one. Mark my words it won't be long before you enter Friday Harbor and are required to have a marina employee flush some dye tablets in your head. Happens in Kookaforia as we speak.

 

[hollywood8118]

I figure its like the regulators saying we can no longer have a fire pit in the backyard we use maybe 5-6 times a year, while next door is a landfill that catches fire for days, multiple times a year that they do nothing about. If you dump anywhere on the main channels of Puget Sound your poo is like a needle in a million haystacks. Of course there always will be some dumb ass that dumps in the middle of the anchored boats watching fireworks on the 4th and ruins it for the rest of us.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Toki]

Here's the weird thing, our boats dump black water to the holding tank with lots of regulations on what we can do with it from there, yet grey water just flows into the drink. While nobody wants to see a turd flow by their boat at an anchorage, black water waste is 100% natural and quickly biodegrades (provided it's not too loaded with tank chemicals). It's that grey water that contains detergents, grease, possibly bleach and god knows what else. I'm quite surprised the NDZ folks aren't coming after that (like they have in the RV world).

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Here's the weird thing, our boats dump black water to the holding tank with lots of regulations on what we can do with it from there, yet grey water just flows into the drink. While nobody wants to see a turd flow by their boat at an anchorage, black water waste is 100% natural and quickly biodegrades (provided it's not too loaded with tank chemicals). It's that grey water that contains detergents, grease, possibly bleach and god knows what else. I'm quite surprised the NDZ folks aren't coming after that (like they have in the RV world).

They have!! In California anyway. In some places you are required to have a grey tank on your boat.

Dye tabs and grey tanks are next with no regards to the actual science. It is feel good regulation. Time to put those rich "yachtys" on their knees...

 

[psneeld]

I am reading but getting a headache.

An NDZ only prevents TREATED sewage from boats. If not an NDZ, then in mostly or all inland waters, non treated cant be dumped but treated can.

Something like less than 1 percent of all recreational boats this affects....but it is ridiculous in most areas that NDZs are declared that they are an ecological necessity for "clean water".

Now if 100 percent of boats used tyoe 1 MSDs...then I would love to see a study that reflects those numbers... not the myths being used now.

 

[psneeld]

Here's the weird thing, our boats dump black water to the holding tank with lots of regulations on what we can do with it from there, yet grey water just flows into the drink. While nobody wants to see a turd flow by their boat at an anchorage, black water waste is 100% natural and quickly biodegrades (provided it's not too loaded with tank chemicals). It's that grey water that contains detergents, grease, possibly bleach and god knows what else. I'm quite surprised the NDZ folks aren't coming after that (like they have in the RV world).

They have and it was approved.(gray water regs).

Recreational boats are under an exemption right now thanks to a few politician boatowners who saw that as a quagmire for us.

I forget the law...but it was something like a decade ago or maybe more now.

https://www.epa.gov/vessels-marinas...ges-statutes-regulations-and-related-laws-and

 

[catalinajack]

Please. Zero impact was just a bit of hyperbole. How about near zero, near infinitesimal? In Florida, the manatees consume 100 pounds of food each day and they often herd together. Yet, the water seems to do just fine. Tons of raw poop each day, dissipated.

Dog catcher? A bit of an exaggeration perhaps?



And to say that recreational boat sewage discharge has zero impact on Puget Sound water quality? Really? It's accurate to say it has less impact than treatment plant overflows, but not at all accurate to say it has zero impact.

 

[Lepke]

The NDZs are why I went to Incinolet toilets. NDZ will only grow because there are more land bound voters than boaters. Eventually there will a patrol gestapo with ever increasing inspections and fines.

I think whales should wear diapers in the NDZ, and the people that shoved the NDZ down our throats should change the diapers.

 

[tekdiver]

Survey

Took it but they won,y like it. As a diver I know the City's are dumping thousands of gallons of raw Sewage a year in Washington. They were suppose to have separated water drainage and Dewar over 30 years ago.

 

[slowgoesit]

Interesting that the survey made you chose only ONE type of head. Our last boat, and our future boat, will have one standard marine head with holding tank, and one composting head. . . . yet in the survey you couldn't chose both . . . From that, and the tone of other questions, it seems like it was more geared toward validating what they already decided they wanted to hear, and not to figure out what people really think . . .

 

[Dave_E]

I took it, our Yacht Club sent it to members. I filled it out... probably on the negative sounding side. No I don't want inspections at the dock, no I don't want anyone snooping around with "black" pills. We have enough "don't do's" and "must have and must do's". This is a sore subject with lots of skippers.