Questionable survey?

[boomerang]

So, as I tried to accurately update and detail in the listing of our Albin in the boats for sale section, after the boat went to survey ,the very interested buyer decided against buying the boat due to an unfavorable survey.
When I say unfavorable, I can only speculate on what the entire survey entailed because I wasn't privy to most of the details. BTW, I've reached out to the prospective buyer who had the survey done and expressed an interest in buying the survey from him. He texted me the total amount of survey, including oil samples plus haul out ($1500 for the survey + $350 quick haul). I don't really care about the oil samples but admittedly I'd be curious about the main and gen samples, I could care less about the clutch; I've thought about using that oil elsewhere like my lawnmower ,since it comes out so clean after the 100 hour maintenance interval) but I'm not interested in paying full price for a survey, especially after what I've found after the fact. Maybe 50% but I'm thinking it's worth less than that now.
Anyway, here's what I know scared the buyer away from what was in the survey and here's what I've figured out.
The engine:
I on purpose left the diapers under the engine since the oil change 75 hours ago to show what oil seeps from the engine gaskets seals etc. What looks like antifreeze is where the diapers got wet from me flushing the engine with fresh water. It doesn't leak any antifreeze. The surveyor pulled the dipstick out while we seatrialing the boat and the engine was running. He noted fumes and particles of oil being expelled and proclaimed it being due to excessive crankcase pressure. OK...if he says so. All I know is it's always had some fumes coming from the vent tube and it sure doesn't look like much oil was blown by since the last oil change as evidenced by the diapers. Plus, when the dipstick was pulled, it's tube is below the crankshaft. I would think there might me oil splashing around down there but again, if you say so.
Second pic. Another view of the diapers from the rear. The biggest problem I see is I'm missing a bell housing bolt! It really seems like a pretty tight engine for being a vintage Ford Lehman 120.

 

[boomerang]

Second round of pics. The forward stateroom stbd side.
1st pic
They found damage to the veneer (which was obvious and I pointed out) and

2nd pic -to the corner of the bunk (I did not point it out because I'd forgotten about it). It was dry and I explained that the veneer and bunk has been like that since we've owned it and that it was from the leaking portlight that's dry now since I pulled and resealed it.

 

[boomerang]

V-berth port side

First pic- obvious water damage to the veneer where the portlight had leaked in the past. It no longer leaks but my beautiful wife open the damn portlights to let some air in and didn't tighten this one enough. I found it and tightened it but the veneer was soaked. I got it dry but didn't think about the water running down the bulkhead to under the bunk. When the surveyor pulled the bedding back, the area was wet and he determined the water was coming from the toerail/caprail. I explained to him I thought it had current moisture had come from the open window (again, the damage was prior damage and I really didn't give it any thought) and didn't feel it came from a leaking deck or the caprail because was the foam backing of the wall liner was dry halfway up but wet only on the bottom. I felt the water leaked down the bulkhead like it had prior to the port being removed and sealed and puddled up in the corner under the mattress and was absorbed by the wall covering from the bottom up. I dont know if he believed me.

 

[twistedtree]

I don't doubt that these issues were a factor in the buyer bailing out, but there's also a very good chance that other factors caused him to bail that have nothing to do with the boat. In the few times I have sold boats, I have seen very enthusiastic buyers, definitely going to buy the boat, blah, blah , blah. Then they fizzle away because they realize they can't really afford the boat, or that it will be taking on much more work than they thought, or they forgot to involve their spouse in the process, etc. etc.. They basically go from drunk enthusiastic to sober and hung over. And it has nothing to do with the boat.


So I think you definitely want to be fully aware of any issues that might get in the way of a sale, but also understand that boat buyers can be very flaky and get cold feet at any time in the process, and there is little you can do to counter that other than try to vet them out early one. If you are going to lose a sale, lose it early and quickly and move on.

 

[boomerang]

Deck moisture

This observation was the one that really bothered me. I have NEVER seen any evidence of water intrusion in the decks. They're all solid and like I mentioned in the "for sale" thread, they pinged loud and clear when banged with the surveyors hammer. When he said there was excessive moisture in all of the decks, that really got me scratching my head.
Yesterday, I went to several spots on the underside of the decks armed with a holesaw. I was hoping I wouldn't see a stream of water run down my forearm when I punched the pilot hole (been there done that with the Mainship we rebuilt!) buy what I got was nothing but sawdust & the smell of dry teak plywood. Here's the pictures of the plugs that came out of the holesaw samples. They sure don't look indicative of wet decks to me.

 

[psneeld]

Shawn..... that damage was there in 2011 when I bought the boat. That port and starboard forward ports had major gaps that the caulk was gone and I stopped those leaks back then.

When you bought the boat, occasionally I found water on the same corner of the Port bunk. But never much. I had caulked that port too but the ports were really poor fitting and keeping the caulk in there was tough without building up the glass around the opening. It also could be coming in around that teak strip around the cabin top.

If that oil leak was under the bell housing, the aft seal is leaking a bit either from a bit overfilling or even the boat pitching a little while underway. Was that way for much of the 3000 hrs before I sold the boat.

There also is some blowby, has been that way for much of the 3000 hours too. Even though the PO to me said the short block had been rebuilt I suspect it was a poor or never really a full short block rebuild.

While I understand the surveyor commenting on these items, the buyer is a classic I want and inexpensive boat that is nearly as perfect as a new one. Your asking price is much less that what I paid for it in 2011...of course it was a lot younger but in some ways in way worse condition than when you bought it (I know I am not telling you anything). I thought the boat was worth it back then (with the exception of the bottom having severe hydrolysis which the surveyor missed)...and even then with the engine only having supposedly 200 hours on it, MY budget included a new engine in a few years.

So I have no idea who the buyer is/was...but not nearly as savvy/realistic as some out there or is just misguided about older used boats, especially a lot of the olderTaiwan builds.

The surveyor? Can't comment without seeing much more of the survey...but my experience is that the worst ones I had were dangerous and the best didn't write up as much as I already knew about the boat.

As far as the decks...they had major leaks and were soaked through but the teak was not rotten. I almost immediately tore up the teak decking and put down glass and hoped that would allow the teak ply sub-deck to dry. Without being glassed underneath it did and always seemed fine. One spot on the aft deck delaminated around 2018 or so and I drilled and injected and also seemed fine when the boat was sold.

My advice is replace the plywood under the bunks, cover up the teak water damage with a fresh covering...the paint job on the engine is way better than when I had her so just make it and the bilge clean, show the 10 years or so of great oil analysis and get/have a fresh one and explain that running that engine above about 7 knots is foolish and if one keeps it below 1700, it should last another 5-10 years. If that doesn't work negotiate a fair deal but not the price of a new engine and substantial interior remodeling.

Explaining moisture reading to people who haven't ever used a moisture meter and found the problem or doesn't realize the is moisture content in unsealed wood (which your decks are) is never gonna get it. Would be surprised if half the surveyors out there would ever noticed you decks aren't sealed on the bottom and may have various and elevated moisture reading considering they are open to the bilge in many areas and not kiln dried lumber in a Home Depot store. Patch the core samples and call that a day too.

In all you are facing what I imagined when I started with that boat...after a period of time, it may become a give away boat because serious boaters have moved on from that "era" boat and the market now is all but gone unless they are pristine examples and ready for an antique boat show. I wouldn't give up yet, but I accepted that thought when I was selling.

 

[boomerang]

I don't doubt that these issues were a factor in the buyer bailing out, but there's also a very good chance that other factors caused him to bail that have nothing to do with the boat. In the few times I have sold boats, I have seen very enthusiastic buyers, definitely going to buy the boat, blah, blah , blah. Then they fizzle away because they realize they can't really afford the boat, or that it will be taking on much more work than they thought, or they forgot to involve their spouse in the process, etc. etc.. They basically go from drunk enthusiastic to sober and hung over. And it has nothing to do with the boat.


So I think you definitely want to be fully aware of any issues that might get in the way of a sale, but also understand that boat buyers can be very flaky and get cold feet at any time in the process, and there is little you can do to counter that other than try to vet them out early one. If you are going to lose a sale, lose it early and quickly and move on.

We honestly don't care too much one way or the other if it sells or not. If it sells, fine and we'll move on to another boat. If not, we'll keep using it. The pictures are closeups and really overblow the extent of the issues. The buyer looked over the boat several times before the survey and was aware of everything I've pictured in the postexceptfor the damage beneath the v-berth mattress'. He was pretty much happy with everything until the (questionable) survey turned him away.

I'm posting all of this just to kind of hear others opinions. And because I'm bored sitting on the boat waiting for Liz to get off of work so we can start our weekend! I was going to start painting the galley but I really hate painting. Like I said, we'll plan on using it if it doesn't sell.

 

[boomerang]

Shawn..... that damage was there in 2011 when I bought the boat. That port above had major gaps that the caulk was gone and I stopped that leak back then.

When you bought the boat, occasionally I found water on the same corner but other bunk. But never much. I had caulked that port too but the ports were really poor fitting and keeping the caulk in there was tough without building up the glass around the opening. It also could be coming in around that teak strip around the cabin top.

If that oil leak was under the bell housing, the aft seal is leaking a bit either from a bit overfilling or even the boat pitching a little while underway. Was that way for much of the 3000 hrs before I sold the boat.

There also is some blowby, has been that way for much of the 3000 hours too. Even though the PO to me said the short block had been rebuilt I suspect it was a poor or never really a full short block rebuild.

While I understand the surveyor commenting on these items, the buyer is a classic I want and inexpensive boat that is nearly as perfect as a new one. Your asking price is much less that what I paid for it in 2011...of course it was a lot younger but in some ways in way worse condition than when you bought it (I know I am not telling you anything). I thought the boat was worth it back then (with the exception of the bottom having severe hydrolysis which the surveyor missed)...and even then with the engine only having supposedly 200 hours on it, MY budget included a new engine in a few years.

So I have no idea who the buyer is/was...but not nearly as savvy/realistic as some out there or is just misguided about older used boats, especially a lot of the olderTaiwan builds.

The surveyor? Can't comment without seeing much more of the survey...but my experience is that the worst ones I had were dangerous and the best didn't write up as much as I already knew about the boat.

My advice is replace the plywood under the bunks, cover up the teak water damage with a fresh covering...the paint job on the engine is way better than when I had her so just make it and the bilge clean, show the 10 years or so of great oil analysis and get/have a fresh one and explain that running that engine above about 7 knots is foolish and if one keeps it below 1700, it should last another 5-10 years. If that doesn't work negotiate a fair deal but not the price of a new engine and substantial interior remodeling.

I concur 100% with everything you've said and there's nothing I didn't know or find out when we bought the boat from you. Yep, it's an old Taiwan trawler that's in better mechanical condition than most of her age and I tried to price it as such.
As long as she goes where where the pointy end is pointed, we'll be happy with it!
Oh,btw, the surveyor was good with the new bottom you rebuilt. You've got more ambition than I ever will...grinding overhead is torture, grinding and laying fiberglass OVERHEAD to that extent is where I draw the line!
Edit/addendum: yep. the oil was overfilled. I just cant get it through my head to stop using the "full" mark on the stick. I learned that if I leave it on the "add" line, it'll stay there for a long time.

 

[tiltrider1]

My surveying friends tell me that they rarely give a boat an unsatisfactory survey. All of them state they have issued like 10 unsatisfactory surveys over 30 year careers. Generally they list deficiencies and observations with an opinion of seaworthyness once the deficiencies are addressed.

My guess is that the buyer got cold feet and is claiming an unsatisfactory survey. If you were to get the survey you will probably just find a list of observations that are already known to you and probably one or two items that were not known like a rusted hose clamp or a warn cutlass bearing.

I believe the only thing you should do at this point is take a realistic look at the price you are asking vs what is truly available in the market.

An example. I just helped a friend obtain a 2005 Bayliner. We had 4 boats to choose from. Boat 1, was priced at the top of the market, was equipped best and looked best. In survey we discovered wet stringers. My friend was still willing to buy the boat but not at the listed price. With 3 other boats to choose from it was perceived that it would be easier to find a better deal from the 3 remaining boats than to continue negotiating with boat 1.

 

[boomerang]

Just to clarify, I just snapped these pictures and here's the stateroom condition without zooming in on the damage. It really isn't that bad and I like the look of the veneer rather than painting the whole thing to hide a couple bad areas.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. b. Yep. Run what you have and forget about both the questionable buyer and equally questionable survey.


I had an insurance survey on our Cheoy Lee and the "surveyor" noted surface rust on the swim platform brackets. Couldn't renew the insurance until THAT was remedied among other non issues. Ya never know what goes on in the heads of the "buyer, surveyor and insurance companies".


Edit: Just saw your post #10. Meh. Just wasn't the right buyer. Do NOT give her away.

 

[boomerang]

My surveying friends tell me that they rarely give a boat an unsatisfactory survey. All of them state they have issued like 10 unsatisfactory surveys over 30 year careers. Generally they list deficiencies and observations with an opinion of seaworthyness once the deficiencies are addressed.

My guess is that the buyer got cold feet and is claiming an unsatisfactory survey. If you were to get the survey you will probably just find a list of observations that are already known to you and probably one or two items that were not known like a rusted hose clamp or a warn cutlass bearing.

I believe the only thing you should do at this point is take a realistic look at the price you are asking vs what is truly available in the market.

An example. I just helped a friend obtain a 2005 Bayliner. We had 4 boats to choose from. Boat 1, was priced at the top of the market, was equipped best and looked best. In survey we discovered wet stringers. My friend was still willing to buy the boat but not at the listed price. With 3 other boats to choose from it was perceived that it would be easier to find a better deal from the 3 remaining boats than to continue negotiating with boat 1.

I hear you and appreciate your input. I did compare it to similar ones on the market and felt the asking was close to right. The odd thing is, the last prospect has told me several times since the survey that he likes the boat and is still interested in it. I would've assumed thats where he would've made me an adjusted offer that we either accept or decline but he hasn't. Maybe he's waiting for me to name a price. Fortunately ,it's nothing that has to happen. We brought it South to enjoy for the winter and that's what we're doing!
I just felt the thread subject would make for an interesting read.

Maybe it would sell quicker if I mentioned it comes with a Manson Supreme anchor. No one would dispute that Manson is the best anchor ever built with the quickest setting characteristics and highest holding power ever!

 

[Gdavid]

I believe the surveyor did their best to document the material condition of the boat but suspect the issues are not being evaluated in a realistic proportion by the buyer/shopper for multiple factors. I think the following factors challenge less experienced boat owners from making a reasonable judgement call on the survey.

1. People are not very mechanically inclined these days. People don't have the experience repairing things themselves and are looking at the worst-case scenario for all repairs needed. Previously a boat owner would consider taking the job on themselves or they were at least knowledgeable of the work involved to feel comfortable hiring it out and overseeing the work. The struggle to find reliable and capable repair service for anything is a huge challenge and unfortunately, a buyer without the ability to take on projects themselves must be very risk averse.

2. Insurance for older vessels can be a challenge. Especially for less experienced boat owners and in many cases the only hard facts that an underwriter has to evaluate the risk is the survey and they are unlikely to evaluate the nuance between a cosmetic and major structural defect. What may be pretty easy to insure for liability on a paid off vessel would be an entirely different situation for a vessel being financed.

3. Financing habits. The American way of financing most large purchases. Boats of this vintage and value end up being pretty limited to cash buyers and, as a society, the majority of the market is looking to buy on credit. Getting a loan on an older boat is hard enough, so they would expect an absolutely spotless survey.

Ultimately, I think it provides a benefit for those with the time, energy and abilities to roll up their sleeves to find great value in these older boats but as a seller, you are working with a pretty limited market.

 

[SteveK]

I am still happy with the purchase of my current boat. I can fix things myself until they are broken.

However, I am sure if most buyers saw the survey they would walk. The way it detailed every item fully described what was no longer brand new. I did not fault the surveyor for bringing all items to my attention. We agreed on a number of must fix items. I was satisfied at the final purchase price.

Where I was surprised is the insurer demanding things be fixed before getting insurance. That must be a new thing with boat insurance, at least not I have noticed it before.
There was nothing on the list preventing the boat from being used safely without fear of sinking. Mostly cosmetic, some must do items included remove marrets to join wires. Yes a collision with a piling left unrepaired stood out. Gel coat spider cracks. As did the rusted out riser.

We are in a new era and insurers have decided to mitigate their payouts by establishing new guidelines I guess.
Be prepared the new age of surveys will scare off buyers who cannot DIY and/or do not have the experience to understand the survey.

 

[mvweebles]

Out of curiosity, did the buyer just revoke their offer, or did they reduce the offer based on survey findings? I ask because asking for a stupid number before sharing the survey is sort of cheesy.

I'd be a bit bummed the deal fell apart, but my view from high up in the bleachers is the buyer missed out on a good price on a decent boat. I don't know what they expect for $50k.

Good luck with whatever the future holds.

Peter.

 

[jleonard]

[QUOTEEdit/addendum: yep. the oil was overfilled. I just cant get it through my head to stop using the "full" mark on the stick. I learned that if I leave it on the "add" line, it'll stay there for a long time.][/QUOTE]

It took me a few years and lots of oil diapers to get used to doing that as well. :lol:

Like I said in the other thread, blowby is what diesel engines do. My brand new Cummins 6BTA had some. That's why diesel cars and trucks route it back into the intake manifold. That's why "catch cans" are made. There is an acceptable level.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I recognize some of those "deficiencies." When checking my tranny flex plate, I noticed that my bell housing was missing a bolt. Turns out somewhere in the boat's past somebody had stripped out the threads. I made a trip to the hardware store and bought a bolt 1/2" longer than the others. The threads in that deep were fine. Paint it red and good to go. Besides, the housing must have 12 bolts. I doubt one missing matters.

I had similar water stains under a forward port hole. The PO had replaced all the original plastic with stainless (at $800 per). But there was still moisture intrusion. In fact, the lining underneath was bulging. I cut it with a razor knife and water dripped out on the V-berth cushion. It as coming from a faulty windlass install 10 feet away and somehow running all that way (down only one side).

Better for a surveyor to be picky rather than oblivious. Could be the buyer isn't ready to find out that "it's a boat."

 

[Choices]

We have decided to sell our boat, and I feel your pain.

You do need to look at the boat with buyer's and inspector's eyes. Something I am glad your post reminded me of.

I will go wipe my oil pan since it is also overfilled.

I intend to disclose a few items I am aware of but consider not worth the effort. But I would not negotiate price without being allowed to review the report. Who knows what is wrong with their report.

My boat is 30 years old. If they want everything perfect I expect them to pay the price of a perfect boat.

Also, I told them before viewing we will not be doing a full rpm test. If you require it, save yourself some time and money. No need to do a destructive test on an old diesel because everyone else does.

Good luck with the sale. Like you we are in no hurry. We will head to Florida in any case. Ours is listed here in the TF classifides.

 

[boomerang]

Out of curiosity, did the buyer just revoke their offer, or did they reduce the offer based on survey findings? I ask because asking for a stupid number before sharing the survey is sort of cheesy.

I'd be a bit bummed the deal fell apart, but my view from high up in the bleachers is the buyer missed out on a good price on a decent boat. I don't know what they expect for $50k.

Good luck with whatever the future holds.

Peter.

Peter, the prospective buyer decided to walk due to the surveyors recommendations and "findings". That was kind of the point of the thread, the surveyor ,lots of times , is not a superhero and a buyer has to depend on their observations to make the judgment of if they want the boat or not,based on their opinion.
Fortunately, we're in the position where we didn't have to get bummed out due to the sale not going through. It's just kind of a pain driving back and forth for showings since I'm 7 hours away and keeping the boat in a state of being ready to show. For a couple of mornings while I was onboard, I didn't even have coffee cups! We unloaded several carloads of stuff off of the boat and now we're loading it all back onboard which has been a PITA.
So, in essence, other than the prospective buyer changing his mind and using the survey as an excuse (which I don't believe to be the case) ,the deal fell through because of issues the surveyor relayed to the buyer causing concern. The problem I have is not with the deal not moving forward. It's the accuracy of the surveyors findings.
BTW, me, being me & hating to be wrong and always wanting to be right , sent a picture of the deck samples to the guy who backed out. I was adamant that there were no hard feelings but the decks weren't as bad as the survey speculated. Later, the ex-prospect said he forwarded to the surveyor ,the pictures and info I relayed about the shavings from the saw being dry with no evidence of water. The surveyor replied back to him that "his moisture meter was pretty accurate" and that "if I put a moisture meter on the cores or put them in a plastic bag" he thought you would see moisture. To me, it's kinda hard to get dusty grindings from wet wood,but again, oh well.
I guess I'm not the only one who doesn't like being wrong...

 

[twistedtree]

Also, I told them before viewing we will not be doing a full rpm test. If you require it, save yourself some time and money. No need to do a destructive test on an old diesel because everyone else does.

Good of you to call that out up front. I'm sure it will save people time and trouble.

 

[psneeld]

Would love to know what his readings were and what he considers "high". Plus, parts of that deck were soaking wet when I bought it. If there is not delam of the epoxy/glass covering or sponginess of the deck in general from the plywood separating...I would say his opinion...after explaining the history of the decks...and he still feels it is a problem.... is the exact problem I have with too many survey writeups.

https://reliancetimber.com/moisture...ture. Wood being air dried before kiln drying.

Acceptable Moisture Levels In Wood
Moisture levels between 9-14% for anything outdoors. Anything under a 30% moisture level is generally acceptable, depending on the application.

https://www.wisaplywood.com/article... about 10 % for thick-veneer softwood plywood.

Under basic conditions of 20 °C and 65 % relative humidity, the equilibrium moisture content is about 12 % for thin-veneer plywood (hardwood, softwood and combi) and about 10 % for thick-veneer softwood plywood.

These readings are probably not the exact conditions of plywood exposed to the warm, moist bilge below and sealed from above.

 

[sunchaser]

Also, I told them before viewing we will not be doing a full rpm test. If you require it, save yourself some time and money. No need to do a destructive test on an old diesel because everyone else does. .

This is a deal killer for most buyers. A full rpm test reveals many things about current owner maintenance attentiveness, the boat's drive train, propping, mounts, cooling system health, exhaust system as well as the engine itself.

 

[boomerang]

This is a deal killer for most buyers. A full rpm test reveals many things about current owner maintenance attentiveness, the boat's drive train, propping, mounts, cooling system health, exhaust system as well as the engine itself.

IDK, I've never demanded an extended WOT run on any of the boats I've purchased. I guess maybe the feeling of the prospective buyer that wants a long WOT seatrial is, if the engine performs like it did when it was new, great , and if it comes to pieces while being pushed to WOT for a long time, what the heck...no skin off of their back!
As with every boat I've sold, I told the guy who was interested in our boat that I was absolutely NOT going to run the engine for a long time at WOT. I told him that I'd be happy to run it as long as he wanted at the cruise RPM's that we've always run it because thats how we treated our engine. Both he and the surveyor were ok with that.
I'm just not in the camp that I'd expect a 30-40 yo engine to perform like it should when new. If they want a new engine, buy a new boat. Non-regular maintenance stuff like valve springs , timing chains, oil pumps etc wear over time and while they'll perform fine under normal conditions, putting undue stress on them could be catastrophic. I don't expect my '99 chevy pickup with 320k miles on it to perform like it did with 20k miles on it. If I ran the heck out of it, I would expect it to have blown up years ago. Thats why I don't push it hard. To me, it's just common sence.

 

[rslifkin]

To me, not doing an on-water WOT test of the engine wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker, but I'd prefer one. But my thoughts on it would depend on the price and what other assessments of engine condition, cooling system health, etc. could be done. On a boat that's a fairly good deal or where the engine will be compression tested and the heat exchanger end caps pulled for inspection, I'd be less worried about it. Especially if I already had a good idea of how the boat was propped.

Ideally I'd like to see a short run up to WOT just to see how the boat is propped and that the engine seems to make the expected power. The 5 - 10+ minute WOT tests that get talked about are excessive on an engine that's not rated for long periods of operation at WOT in my mind, even if they shouldn't damage anything.

To me, a WOT test should be a good run at max continuous / max cruise RPM, then a brief run up to WOT. Basically once the boat stops gaining speed and the RPM stops rising, confirm gauge readings are normal and pull the throttle(s) back. It's a check that the engine is performing the way it should, not a durability test. Especially on an engine that's not going to be operated in that range normally.

 

[sunchaser]

To me, a WOT test should be a good run at max continuous / max cruise RPM, then a brief run up to WOT. Basically once the boat stops gaining speed and the RPM stops rising, confirm gauge readings are normal and pull the throttle(s) back. It's a check that the engine is performing the way it should, not a durability test. Especially on an engine that's not going to be operated in that range normally.

Agree as do the surveyors I know. I've never heard of a reputable surveyor saying " full throttle to see what breaks."

 

[mvweebles]

This is a deal killer for most buyers. A full rpm test reveals many things about current owner maintenance attentiveness, the boat's drive train, propping, mounts, cooling system health, exhaust system as well as the engine itself.

Definitely a deal killer for me. There are only two reasons to avoid a 5-min WOT test. Either the seller fears the engine cannot handle it even though it was designed for WOT far in excess of 5-mins. Or they simply don't understand diesels and have superimposed their auto/gas engine "redline" mindset to which I wonder what other carry-over practices they bring to maintenance.

Either way, I want no part of the boat or the seller. I appreciate the heads-up from a reluctant seller. Saves both the buyer and seller (and broker) brain damage.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I never even sea trialed the boat that I lived on for 10 years and covered 20,000 miles of typical trawler coastal cruising. When I sold the boat I explained a few issues with the engine and said no WOT because it really does no guarantee anything and may just push the engine to just under the breaking point as that is never really known. Sure it may reveal a lot of smaller issues, but if the boat runs fine at high cruise/emergency power that was good enough for me.

I never saw a deliver captain or commercial operator of a new boat go out and first thing perform a WOT test, nor would I.

Now sure.... a couple year old engine is one thing for a several minute WOT test for a few parameters but as Shawn said, on a 30-40 year old engine/parts that NEVER should ever be there again (on old Taiwan trawlers)... WTFCs?

Oil analysis should show the health of the basic engine and many other issues are usually easily fixed or negotiated over a "bad" engine. High cruise will also show some of them at least enough to signal they might need attention like cleaning an exchanger or aligning the engine, etc....

If a buyer insists, stop wasting MY time.... ain't and didn't happen on any of my older boats....and I give them plenty of warning as a reasonable seller.

I know a lot of people disagree...their choice and opinion...I have mine (but it isn't absolute, it just fits the situations I have described, IMO).

 

[mvweebles]

Steve d'Antonio has written frequently on the topic - if I recall, he's a proponent of 8-10 mins but 5-mins as a minimum. WOT is a commonly used test to demonstrate health of engine and drive train

I certainly understand the concern from the sellers perspective. There is indeed risk that a marginal engine might blow up, though by far the more likely outcome is it will blow a ton of black smoke, not reach RPM, or, worst case, start to overheat (test should be stopped if it becomes to heat up).

Diesels are designed to run WOT for at least a short period of time. The seller is in the best seat to evaluate risk of WOT. If seller declines the test, they do so because they believe the risk is too high and in effect want to transfer the risk to the buyer which is the sellers prerogative. The seller is effectively saying they lack the confidence the engine will operate to design specifications so should not be surprised when the buyer reduces their offer significantly to account for the unknown risk.

Seller cannot have it both ways - expect a premium price but deny buyer routine due diligence to verify. Well, they may certainly ask for it, but they will have to find an uneducated buyer who falls madly in love with their boat. Those days came to a close with decline of Covid issues.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I certainly want to transfer some of the risk depending on price of the deal...I buy and sell thinking I may have to replace the engine whether it was sold that way or develops the second after the buyer drives off with it. I also have read by a lot of TFers that most diesels die from user error (my PO killed 2 before selling to me....I never have)...so I don't worry about the WOT test if I believe in the seller.

And why in the world would I think an old engine (remember I did specify newer and older) would perform to original specs ?

I don't believe the discussion is about firm asking/final prices versus this uncertain test (wanting it both ways)....or be surprised if the offer is lowered by refusing that test.

I buy boats and sell them based on engine replacement. So my offers and selling price reflect that. So no, I am not going offer that test on a sea trial if my engine is happy carrying me along at cruise speed and the risk of changing that can fall on a prospective buyer.

 

[STB]

What do people worry that a full RPM test will break?

Admittedly, I've got naturally aspirated 6.354 Perkins, but I WOT them under load occasionally. I did on my last boat with 6.354 MGTs, also.

I dont and didnt run them that way for long. Its certainly a lot more wear for less miles on the engines than running them at a sensible throttle setting.

But I like to do it briefly now and then to see that they still cool themselves well. Shows me that cooler cruft iisn't sneaking up on me, etc.

If a buyer would want to run them like that extensively, that's just silly and wouldn't happen. But if I buyer wants to do that for 30 seconds or a minute or whatever is needed to see cooling is fine, why not?

I can imagine that older engines might belch black smoke or something if they get more fuel than their compression supports.

But why should things suddenly break? There's just not that much difference between by normal 2000-200rpm operating range and the ~2500rpm WOT.

I guess I get it for fast fishing boats and cruisers that regularly operate at 1/3 throttle and either aren't maintained beyond that w.r.t. the turbos or coolers, or have engines beyond their service life for hard-driving fishing trips or fast paced "transit" crusing, and are now enjoying a retirement at trawler speeds. But, I'm guessing, on those, the smoke would get black or blue or the temps would rise on the way up and the test woukd be truncated. As a buyer, depending upon my expectations, that might be just fine, or not.

Just seems like paying attention during the test and stopping when the limit is found should allow it to be okay.

In my case, I regularly run 80-85%. A few minutes of a little more shouldn't be catastrophic, right?