Survey engine and pull out

[Ducatihottie]

Why do I need to do engine and survey / pull out on the same day?

If survey fails, I waisted money on the engine. This if I can't come to terms with the owner to pay or fix the items?

If engine fails, I waisted money on the Survey and pull out. Again if I can't come to terms with the owner to pay or fix the engine

Have any of you demanded doing them separately? Will this request piss off my broker?

 

[Ski in NC]

I do engine surveys and have done it both ways. Doing both the same day makes a lot of sense in that often a capn has to be hired, only need him for one day. Buyer, seller, broker also only tied up for a day. Hull surveyor also wants to see the boat out of the water, and wants to run it too.

For my part I have to run it after haul, and I also want to see the running gear. So it makes sense for me to be there at the haul, then performance run afterward.

It's pretty rare to see a deal killer on haulout. And you really can't do serious negotiating until you have hull survey report and my report in hand. And it takes two days to get oil samples back.

I figure about 75% of my pre-purchase engine inspections are done on same day as haul and hull survey. It also helps as my knowledge of engines and systems can help the hull surveyor, and vice versa. We work as a team.

Also in some instances when a true deal killer was found by either of us, buyer decides to bail on the spot and I will cut him a break on my bill. Some hull surveyors will too, but that is their choice. Some do, some do not.

Nothing wrong with a one day show.

 

[GH41]

Why do I need to do engine and survey / pull out on the same day?

If survey fails, I waisted money on the engine. This if I can't come to terms with the owner to pay or fix the items?

If engine fails, I waisted money on the Survey and pull out. Again if I can't come to terms with the owner to pay or fix the engine

Have any of you demanded doing them separately? Will this request piss off my broker?

You have to remember... You are not buying a new boat for 77 K and the owner cannot be expected make everything new for 77 K. Only the owner knows how low he will sell for. Some owners want out at almost any cost because they know the hole in the water you throw money into gets deeper as a boat ages. How old is the listing?

 

[Ducatihottie]

Ski, I'm in Seattle can you do mine?

My costs and at the moment everything will be done July 8th.

1987 CHB 42' Ponderosa Tri-Cabin
US$

2. Marine Survey: Around $850 "CALE MATHERS"
3. Mechanical Inspection: Around $700
4. Survey Haulout and potential pressure wash: $1,000

Is there a possibility I'm throwing away $2550 in one day?

 

[Portage_Bay]

No you are not throwing $2500 away. If so many problems are found you don't complete the purchase it will have been money well spent to avoid huge expenses.

I and others here have walked away after unfavorable survey reports. I walked from one during survey.

I'm not wealthy and like you was in the sub $100K range. $2500 to walk away hurt. But it was the right decision.

 

[Ski in NC]

Ski, I'm in Seattle can you do mine?

My costs and at the moment everything will be done July 8th.

1987 CHB 42' Ponderosa Tri-Cabin
US$

2. Marine Survey: Around $850 "CALE MATHERS"
3. Mechanical Inspection: Around $700
4. Survey Haulout and potential pressure wash: $1,000

Is there a possibility I'm throwing away $2550 in one day?

I'm on the other edge of the continent!!! I have flown for engine surveys, but not for such a simple engine as a B210. Any good engine tech can do it and the generator locally. $700 sounds reasonable.

And don't get hung up on the total cost. Looks like a well maintained boat.
Chances are it will check out well and any issues can be resolved or negotiated.

Haulout and pressure blast sounds a little high. In my area a short haul (stays in the slings) is about half that. Pressure blast is usually a small fee. But different areas have different pricing.

 

[Pau Hana]

Ski, I'm in Seattle can you do mine?

My costs and at the moment everything will be done July 8th.

1987 CHB 42' Ponderosa Tri-Cabin
US$

2. Marine Survey: Around $850 "CALE MATHERS"
3. Mechanical Inspection: Around $700
4. Survey Haulout and potential pressure wash: $1,000

Is there a possibility I'm throwing away $2550 in one day?

Kevin Ambrose at Diesel Power Systems is your point of contact for mechanical surveys here in the Seattle area.

 

[Airstream345]

I'll second Kevin Ambrose. Great guy, very thorough and explains things well. Short haul sounds expensive. How long is the vessel and where are you hauling out? Keep in mind the pressure wash is an additional cost on top of the haul and not required if the bottom is clean.

Finally, the cost of a survey is worth every penny. If they find something really, REALLY wrong it gives you either an easy out or a lot of leverage to re-negotiate. If they don't find anything major it gives you a list known items to re-negotiate and a punch list to work from.

The vessel we bought last Fall had a lot of deferred maintenance so we hired really picky surveyors resulting in a long list (73 items on the conditional and 10 on the mechanical along with oil analysis for the main and the genny). Most items were very minor (replace this clamp, tag this fire extinguisher) and none were show stoppers.

Still, the sheer volume of deferred but easily remedied maintenance items meant the post survey price adjustment more than offset the cost of the survey and we knew exactly what we were getting into.

 

[Ski in NC]

Yea, half the engine inspections I do I find enough problems that their cost exceeds my bill. The other half the engines are so well maintained and in such good shape that they are true gems. Not really half and half, but you get my point. Same probably applies to hull surveyors. Generally not a waste of money.

 

[firehoser75]

Hi Brian,
You have received some excellent advise from "professionals" who have experience actually doing survey work. Yes, walking away from a deal (I have done this) after spending a lot of money on the costs associated with surveying a boat is a bit painful, but that is nothing compared to the costs associated with owning a "bad" boat!!!!
As others have said, consider it money well spent either way (buy or walk) and learn something from the experience. I did.
My opinion, it is not fair to the seller to expect that he will pay for all or most of the repairs/replacements found during your surveys. It is an old boat after all and a lot of the items I mentioned in the other thread related to this survey are really maintenance items. Some will already be done, some will be part way to needing doing and some will need doing right away.
To me, as a buyer, you look over the boat carefully prior to an offer. You negotiated a price based on your estimate of the condition of the boat, and the market you are in.
After survey, you renegotiate based on large ticket items found wanting, or items that truly are at or near end of life. For example, I would expect a discount for a house battery bank that was 9 years old. It is done, or very, very close to it. If the bank was 6 golf cart batteries at $200 each, I would expect the seller to cover at least half that cost (so say $600). Now to me, it gets more complicated if the bank is say 4 years old. I would probably just accept that. Maybe not the best example as there are other factors, but you get the idea.

I talked about the raw water cooling system in my other post. As long as nothing major was found there (like neglect), I would service it myself and not expect the vendor to cover it at all. Difference to me is "maintenance" vs "repairs", at least to a point.

Also, be aware, that your insurer will probably "require" that you repair all items found by the survey within a fairly short time frame. Peter (Pau Hana) can comment more on that. If it is a long list of items (even if nothing expensive by itself) that can be used to renegotiate. Just don't be too unreasonable about renegotiating unless you are willing to not own the boat.
Good luck.

 

[hytedin]

Ideally you’ve already fully inspected the boat and taken it out for a run.

Be there before it’s started and have the owner walk you through their procedures such as checking oil and other start up items. It’ll let you touch the engines to ensure they are doing a cold start.

You can present the approach as information and knowledge sharing.

Thus typically will occur when you give your deposit.

On the 8th your head will be a whirlwind. You want well seasoned advocates.

Also, $2500 is a drop in the bucket next to what will be items undisclosed that will be renegotiated, or at least a list of what you need to complete prior to insuring.

Good luck!

 

[Datenight]

We walked on a boat halfway through the survey. Best money I ever spent. Even got a little discount from the surveyor.

Rob

 

[BruceK]

It`s difficult to separate them because preferably both should see the boat out of the water. There is crossover. Less important the mechanical surveyor does.
If you separate the surveys, do the one that concerns you most first. If it fails that you save the cost of the other.
Sellers want you to spend lots on surveys so you have more $ commitment. You have to view that expenditure as insurance, the premium is best spent if the peril actually occurs.

 

[BandB]

Your surveys are excellent insurance and if you try to cut corners on them in any way you won't get everything you should. Now the value I believe is additive. If the engine survey has a value of 1 and the hull survey has a value of 1, then I believe having both surveyors there together both checking out of the water, both there for the start up, both actively involved together in the sea trial would carry a value of 2.5 and maybe even 3. I have seen professionals work together effectively and augment each other's work.

 

[Comodave]

I would have it all done at the same time. Yes you are risking the $2250, but YOU should have already done as through an inspection as you can or else you did not do your due diligence. You should spend at least the better part of a day prior to the survey and poke through the boat. If you are not knowledgeable about boat maintenance then either take a friend that is or pay a mechanic for a couple of hours and look the boat over. When you make your offer state what you want fixed at what sales price AND the offer is contingent on the survey and sea trial. Then if other major things are found you can still negotiate on the final price. Do not get excited over the small stuff, the boat is some 30 years old, expect that there will be a lot of small things that need fixing or some maintenance, expect it!!! Then make your offer and do the sea trial and survey. Our current boat I spent 2 days poking around it. When the surveyor was working I would tell him that this is bad or that is bad. About half way through he asked me why I hired him, that I should be a surveyor. I said to have a negotiating point and that the insurance company required one. When we were done he found 2 things that I had not seen. I readjusted my offer on 4 things that needed fixing. There were about 18 or 20 other small things that I fixed myself. I wanted the boat but I wanted the owner to pay for the 4 major items and he did. If I had demanded all 20 something items be repaired it probably would have killed the deal. Good luck with the deal and relax it will probably work out fine.

 

[ranger58sb]

Have any of you demanded doing them separately?

Absolutely not. Were it me, I want them to be doing it all at once, together. So much of what they're observing is intertwined...

-Chris

 

[Ski in NC]

I second the concept of a prospective buyer doing a good inspection themselves prior to hiring surveyors. You do not need to be an expert to find deal-killer type issues. Most of those are obvious to the layman. Do systems work? Evidence of water leaks? Walk around decks barefoot and sense for "soft-foot" (decks flexing under foot). Go in engine room. Are engines a rusty mess? Are they clean? Can you crawl around to all parts of the engine/gear/generator (big deal there)?

Regarding test runs, usually you will need to be under contract to do that. Not really a big deal as long as the contract has a clause that allows you to back out (and get depoit back) if the boat is unacceptable to you in any way.

Sometimes the seller and or broker will not test run the boat for you unless it is survey day. It is their right to require that, but it is certainly negotiable. If they want to sell the boat to you, your requests matter!! If you made a low ball offer and there are potentially other offers out there, your cards do not make a strong hand.

All is negotiable. Best advice I have is if you have a strong personality, try to keep it in check. I have been involved in many deals where strong personalities were involved and tempers got flamed over a minor detail. I walked away shaking my head. Great boat, good deal, and they got mad over THAT????

Sorry for the rambling thoughts...

 

[ktdtx]

You are also getting a "To Do" list of repairs which you should prioritize in groups-Safety items repaired first and others as you see fit. This will give you some idea as to how deep you are getting into as far as repairs needed.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Ducat wrote;

“If survey fails, I waisted money on the engine. This if I can't come to terms with the owner to pay or fix the items?““

So .... It appears it’s assumed that sellers need to or should be required to fix everything that wrong w a old boat. Buyers seem to think sellers will need to fix all that ails a boat. Looks like a game whereas buyers play to get sellers to keep fixing things until the boat is like new. Old boats are old boats and all have several to many things wrong w them.

If I was the buyer I wouldn’t want seller doing repairs on my boat. I would want to do them myself or have a well known to me mechanic doing them.

If I do repairs on my boat I would need to raise the price. But everybody seems to think the price is only for suckers that don’t play the game.

 

[Ducatihottie]

Thanks everyone. Great starting points.



hytedin, Is the owner there during the survey?

 

[hytedin]

hytedin, Is the owner there during the survey?

Either the owner or the broker.
I’ve been lucky to have the owner present on the last two. In each I tried to let the owner show me their vessel.


Remember, once you have an offer accepted, the timeline is in your hands.

 

[Airstream345]

Is the owner there during the survey?

Depends. In many cases the owner is there as the captain, unless you specify otherwise. For both of our boat purchases the owners were present and operated the boat. We also found it saved time with the surveyors as his specific knowledge of the systems, how or why they were installed, the history, knowledge of documentation, etc. allowed them to simply ask questions about there something was or how something was turned on and then get to work.

You can also hire a captain for the day and exclude the owner.

One thing I don't like is the selling broker onboard. We excluded them on our second purchase so we could remain focused on the survey and sea trial as during our first boat's survey he constantly tried to downplay anything they found in real time. That might have just been a bad experience from our previous purchase but we wanted to make sure we only got information from the surveyors.

 

[Ducatihottie]

I'd prefer just the owner and Surveyor. I'm assuming you can learn a lot about how the boat was taken care of just by watching the owner. Can you sense pride of ownership? If he looks like Popeye or Blacbeard should I rejoice? I was once informed never to hire a contractor with clean hands. If the owner doesn't climb down the engine room, get dirty; can I assume he's clueless about boating like me?

When does the engine mechanic hop aboard? Are they there from start to finish as well?

 

[Airstream345]

The more time you can spend with the owner the better (IMHO). I spent a half day helping him relocate the boat from his home marina (Bremerton) to Shilshole for the survey and learned a ton about operating the boat from him. Same on survey day and then he spent another half day with me pre-closing. You do get to see how they treat, operate, think about the boat, tips and tricks for docking, un-docking, running, navigation, electronics, etc and its invaluable experience/education. Just the order of operations and a printed laminated checklist he used for departure showed me he was very organized and careful with his boat.

I've had the mechanic present for the entire survey (on the first boat) and only half the survey (on the second). They really want to see the machinery at the dock when cold, on startup and then operating on loads during the sea trial. They also wanted to see the running gear in the slings. The don't, however, need to sit there and watch the other surveyor sound the hull and use a moisture meter for a few hours. For us this meant our mechanical survey on the second purchase was about half the price of the conditional survey.

 

[Ducatihottie]

Can one actually request the owner to be present? If not present, does the surveyor or engine surveyor drive the boat to hull out?

I won't be hiring a captain.

 

[hytedin]

It might be worth your time to get a buyers broker, or take a seasoned boater you trust.

And, any request can be made.

 

[firehoser75]

Someone has to operate the boat and take responsibility. Best for it to be the owner, or his agent (if the owner is OK with that and trusts him/her). They would not want the buyer to operate it or his agent, as the seller has no knowledge of the competency of these people.
When we sea trialled our Tug, we had our broker, the seller's broker, and the seller on board. The seller operated the boat, except for a short time frame when I operated it in open water with his permission. Also aboard were the mechanic and the surveyor, but as has been discussed, the mechanic did not stay the entire time.
I feel you can get a "good read" on the seller from having him/her on board operating the boat. I am sure there are exceptions, where this "set up" did not work as well as it did for us.

 

[Ducatihottie]

I know you know what you're doing. But how can I learn with so many people on the boat as you had? We're there times when everyone spoke at once?

 

[Comodave]

I was asked by a friend to be aboard his boat during the purchase survey since he was unavailable. The surveyor was not happy as he wanted to do the survey all by himself. I told him that the seller was insisting that I represent his interests so he finally gave in and accepted that I would be aboard. It just varies. On our current boat I never met the PO. However I did take 2 days and go through the boat all by myself. The surveyor did find 1 thing that I did not find.

 

[Comodave]

I know you know what you're doing. But how can I learn with so many people on the boat as you had? We're there times when everyone spoke at once?

If there is such a time, take charge of the situation and tell everyone to be quiet. This is your time, you are paying for the survey so get what you want/need.