Removing AC power and going with DC power only.

[jomarjr]

Hello everyone!

We are in the middle of a restoration on our 1980 Albin 36 trawler and have been making headway with upgrading and replacing systems.

I have gone ahead and removed ALL electrical elements from the boat, including wiring. We (me and a marine electrician friend) are redoing all of this because there were some previous “repairs” that made it unsafe. Instead of going through it, it was easier to start from scratch and do it right.

I’m looking for insight on the AC side of things and whether or not you would add AC power to a boat throughout or not. The boat has ten 120/15 plugs throughout, AC connection to a fridge, battery charger, 2 Aircon units, and a 3kw genset. My thought is to not rewire the outlets or fridge with AC but to replace the receptacles with DC outlets, a mix of 12v plugs and USB/USB-C plugs.

Our electrical cabinet is near the shore power and Aircons and if I don’t rewire the plugs, then I won’t have any AC runs throughout the boat. I would most likely add a dual 120/15 plug at the panel, but that would be it.

Are there any disadvantages I am missing with this? All of our devices are USB/USB-C except my MacBook, to which I have a 12v plug already for travel. Our TV and stereo is 12V and we won’t be using any appliances like a Micro or Coffee Pot.

The Shore/Gen power would solely be used to power the battery charger and Aircons when needed.

I feel like AC power on boats is more of a convenience for those that aren’t full time on a boat than a requirement for full timers who have all the 12v equipment anyway.

 

[Arthurc]

Its an interesting idea, I am admittedly on the boat way less than I would like but I don't think I would be too upset if I didn't have 110 around the boat, especially if I knew that was my situation. I mostly use the 110 outlets for stuff like a heat gun on electrical projects (easily replaced by a butane one) and little stuff like that, nothing an extension cord couldn't take on. Depending on situation id check with the other family members incase something like a hair iron is wanted, also I would put one in the kitchen.

While at it think about getting a DC generator, I wish I had thought of this before my retrofit, there really is no reason to have an AC generator if you have good inverters and a DC one which are more efficient and charge faster.

Sounds like a fun project!
AC

 

[rslifkin]

Personally, I find AC power useful for plenty of things on the boat. It's particularly handy when working on the boat, as I can bring any tool I need aboard and not need a boat-specific version. I also tend to keep corded versions of things like a drill aboard, as a corded drill is always charged, unlike a cordless one. And the boat drill can easily go a couple of months without being used, so I'd likely have to charge a cordless one before use.



That said, you don't necessarily need outlets everywhere in the boat. I have some that get used a lot and some that are very rarely used. So it may make sense to just figure out a couple of good spots for outlets and only put them there to keep the wiring runs down. Having outlets in place to allow for an AC/DC fridge and a microwave in the galley is good from a future flexibility perspective in my mind.

 

[jomarjr]

We will have to consider a DC generator, right now we have a Victron Centaur 100amp Battery Charger that will accept AC or DC input for charging so we would be compatible either way. We may need to stick with the AC genset budget wise, but it is accessible without removing the main engine and DC may be an upgrade option down the road. My only concern with a DC genset is that I would need to get a sizeable Inverter, as the current genset can run one of the Aircon systems and that is a perk (we're in Florida) and a luxury I wouldn't want to lose.

My better half and I have talked about other appliances and even her hair straightener is battery powered and rechargeable with USB, so we are good there.

Thanks for your insight!

 

[Sealife]

If resale value is a concern, I'd put in 120 circuits. Hair dryer, blender, toaster, recharging electric toothbrush, shaver, vacuum cleaner, etc. Mostly convinces, but I'd by a boat with them vs. without.

 

[jomarjr]

Personally, I find AC power useful for plenty of things on the boat. It's particularly handy when working on the boat, as I can bring any tool I need aboard and not need a boat-specific version. I also tend to keep corded versions of things like a drill aboard, as a corded drill is always charged, unlike a cordless one. And the boat drill can easily go a couple of months without being used, so I'd likely have to charge a cordless one before use.



That said, you don't necessarily need outlets everywhere in the boat. I have some that get used a lot and some that are very rarely used. So it may make sense to just figure out a couple of good spots for outlets and only put them there to keep the wiring runs down. Having outlets in place to allow for an AC/DC fridge and a microwave in the galley is good from a future flexibility perspective in my mind.

That's a good point. I think if I keep 1 outlet in the panel and 1 in the galley, I will be good. We can always use extension cords for any tools that we may need. We wont be utilizing AC for the fridge, just DC, as the fridge we have is more efficient on DC.

I think there will always be instances where I'll say 'I wish I had that" when it comes to AC power, but I think overall, the plan of not having AC run throughout the boat wont be an issue.

 

[caltexflanc]

If resale value is a concern, I'd put in 120 circuits. Hair dryer, blender, toaster, recharging electric toothbrush, shaver, vacuum cleaner, etc. Mostly convinces, but I'd by a boat with them vs. without.

I agree with this, it would severely affect, perhaps even eliminate the potential number of buyers and the price they would pay. I don't know how or how much you use your boat, but to me this is one of those "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it" items.

 

[psneeld]

I completely removed my AC electrical and replaced it. It was actually one of the easier and less expensive jobs on the boat except for the new main distribution panel.




Even though one of my goals is to be as 12V and solar sufficient as I can, having the 120V system was never in doubt to being replaced...really don't see it as a big deal, gives flexibility and convenience and is good for resale which one never know when that may have to happen.

 

[jomarjr]

I completely removed my AC electrical and replaced it. It was actually one of the easier and less expensive jobs on the boat except for the new main distribution panel.




Even though one of my goals is to be as 12V and solar sufficient as I can, having the 120V system was never in doubt to being replaced...really don't see it as a big deal, gives flexibility and convenience and is good for resale which one never know when that may have to happen.

That makes sense. Maybe I am also biased because of how BAD the AC electrical was in the boat. We had 10 outlets on 1 breaker and with wiring was crisscrossing the boat. If I do it right, it may be a better system, and as others have said, keep the resale value higher.

 

[PM]

If I was looking at a used boat and the owner told me there was no Alternating Current on board I would take a walk.

I don't know much about the higher DC voltages, like 24, 48 or more but with 12 volts, you can't air condition, refrigerate or hardly boil water.

Don't think about it.

pete

 

[Comodave]

Yes, I think it would kill the resale value.

 

[psneeld]

If I was looking at a used boat and the owner told me there was no Alternating Current on board I would take a walk.

I don't know much about the higher DC voltages, like 24, 48 or more but with 12 volts, you can't air condition, refrigerate or hardly boil water.

Don't think about it.

pete

You can boil with other sources of energy and you certainly and more efficiently refrigerate/freeze with 12V. With good solar people are reporting that induction is pretty doable...even with decent batteries you can microwave water to boil it.


You could also swamp cool if in a lower humidity environment.


But I still don't agree that running AC wiring should be a big deal on an Albin 36.

 

[sbman]

That makes sense. Maybe I am also biased because of how BAD the AC electrical was in the boat. We had 10 outlets on 1 breaker and with wiring was crisscrossing the boat. If I do it right, it may be a better system, and as others have said, keep the resale value higher.

I would keep the AC system personally. It's hard to get much power out of a 12V system, the amperages get high very quickly. Inverters have become so much better over the last few years that it's easy to produce clean, efficient 120V power on board if desired.

One breaker for each side of the boat with a small string of outlets on each could make for a fairly clean, simple installation while retaining the ability for you or future owners to plug a coffee pot in at the galley, or a razor in the bathroom.

 

[psneeld]

That makes sense. Maybe I am also biased because of how BAD the AC electrical was in the boat. We had 10 outlets on 1 breaker and with wiring was crisscrossing the boat. If I do it right, it may be a better system, and as others have said, keep the resale value higher.

I broke it up to individual circuits for Oven, Battery charger, Water Heater and Outlets that are via the inverter (either shore pass through or inverted).


The outlets circuits are Owner cabin and head, Vee berth and head, Galley, Salon, Eng Room, Fly Bridge.


Did a similar setup with DC where there are are 5 main DC fuse panels throughout the boat. That minimized wire runs and kept the electrical panel within reason and each fuse block too.


A little pricey if you don't plan to live aboard, but made rewiring much easier and surveyors don't give it a second look.

 

[AusCan]

I'm in the minority by agreeing with you regarding AC power not required. I rarely use it for anything except the house charger when it has been very cloudy for an extended period and the solar panels can't keep the batteries charged.

I'm also in the minority by not caring about resale value.

Your choice, jomarjr.

 

[socalrider]

I'm in the minority by agreeing with you regarding AC power not required. I rarely use it for anything except the house charger when it has been very cloudy for an extended period and the solar panels can't keep the batteries charged.

I'm also in the minority by not caring about resale value.

Your choice, jomarjr.

Yeah I'm in your camp as well, and in the minority. As I understand it you're keeping Aircon, so it's not a question of going fully 12V, just how many outlets to wire. Once you've got 120V on your boat & the appropriate GFIs, panel, grounding, etc. then adding or subtracting a few outlets is pretty marginal. I'd say just put in what you think you'll need - adding a few more is an easy job.

I gotta say, based on the quality of the 120V on my vessel, I would absolutely not walk away from a boat without it installed. Putting in a basic system is a few hundred in parts and a couple hours of labor, and I'd know for sure it was done right. Much rather have that than the mishmash I found - wire nuts, solid core, green wire disconnected entirely, no GFIs, some wires came out of their terminals with a light tug... be careful out there!

 

[rgano]

Don't forget the water heater.

My Pilot has a few AC outlets in the downeast cabin only. I use them to power a 24/7 dehumidifier. In winter, I use them to additionally power an oil-filled heater, a fan or two and water line heater tapes tossed into the aft bilge around mufflers and water/waste tanks because the boat hangs clear of the water. I often wish there was an outlet in the aft end of the engine compartment, but extension cords suffice.

You are going to have a generator anyway, so don't adversely impact your resale value and your own convenience by not having at least one outlet aft and one forward as well as the other you have planned.

 

[oscar]

I have 120V in my car..... Vacuum cleaners, power tools and/or chargers for same, space heaters when needed, my HEATED MATTRESS PAD......

Aside from that I have 4 AC's.......

And yes I would walk away from a boat for sale without AC.

 

[jomarjr]

You can boil with other sources of energy and you certainly and more efficiently refrigerate/freeze with 12V. With good solar people are reporting that induction is pretty doable...even with decent batteries you can microwave water to boil it.


You could also swamp cool if in a lower humidity environment.


But I still don't agree that running AC wiring should be a big deal on an Albin 36.

Most systems are ok on 12V. I’ll still have the diesel genset and outlets. But I don’t think I need the 10 that were in the boat

 

[tiltrider1]

Lets look at this from a different perspective. In 1988, my boat was built with both dual cabin lights, both DC and AC. The idea was that DC used less power on the hook and that AC was brighter. It would have been a very easy decision back then to have said the DC lights were next to worthless and not even put them in. Now, 30 years later with LED lighting the DC lights are used 100% and the AC lights never are used.

Now lets try to look into the future. With 120v you can use much smaller wire which equates to longer wire runs with less voltage drop issues. With the new more powerful Inverter/Chargers we are finding many traditionally DC items such as windlass work much better when an AC motor is used with the Inverter. In fact we are seeing DC refrigerators practically disappearing from the market.

If I was rewiring an older Trawler I would keep in mind that AC is likely to have a larger presence in the future of boating.

 

[Andosan]

A couple of thoughts, as I'm considering some major changes to the electrical system on my boat this coming winter.

1. Many handy appliances only run on AC e.g. toasters, kettle etc. What would be the plan for those?

2. Assuming you have a roughly equivalent power demand, DC will draw much higher currents and accordingly will require much larger cables. Do you have the physical space to run heavy gauge DC cabling throughout the boat?

 

[FF]

Cigar lighter plugs and sockets are not great at even modest loads.

Many off grid folks use the 15A 240 plugs and sockets. for DC.

The 240V configuration is great as it polarizes the lines.

A 120v socket will not accept a 240v plug , a 120v plug will not go in a 240v socket.

 

[Iggy]

Lets look at this from a different perspective. In 1988, my boat was built with both dual cabin lights, both DC and AC. The idea was that DC used less power on the hook and that AC was brighter. It would have been a very easy decision back then to have said the DC lights were next to worthless and not even put them in. Now, 30 years later with LED lighting the DC lights are used 100% and the AC lights never are used.

Now lets try to look into the future. With 120v you can use much smaller wire which equates to longer wire runs with less voltage drop issues. With the new more powerful Inverter/Chargers we are finding many traditionally DC items such as windlass work much better when an AC motor is used with the Inverter. In fact we are seeing DC refrigerators practically disappearing from the market.

If I was rewiring an older Trawler I would keep in mind that AC is likely to have a larger presence in the future of boating.

Very good point! My friend has a 55 footer and better than 1/2 the stuff runs on A.C. Less weight, less cost in wiring. Just a simpler setup.

I am waiting for cars and boats jump to 24V, DC just for that reason.

 

[ranger58sb]

I feel like AC power on boats is more of a convenience for those that aren’t full time on a boat than a requirement for full timers who have all the 12v equipment anyway.

Where (and how) we boat, aircon is pretty much mandatory in summer and reverse cycle heat is very useful in the cooler months. And we like having hot water available. Solving those with AC pretty much means there's AC on the boat... so adding service to outlets and maybe for a few other appliances is a minor detail.

Which in turn makes our all-electric galley easily supportable, etc.

-Chris

 

[Shrew]

I'd want an AC outlet in the head. We use electric toothbrushes and my wife uses a hair dryer.

I'd want an AC outlet in the galley. We use a waffle iron, coffee maker, toaster oven, and occasionally an electric skillet. Plus the microwave and stove/oven are on AC (although those each have their own circuit).

I use electric tools all over the boat. I would hate to have to string extension cords everywhere.

We use a cordless vaccuum that is in the guest stateroom and charges on an AC outlet.

Heat and AC run on AC.

Most electronic devices can now be charged via USB (12VDC).

Personally, I would want at least one 15a 120VAC outlet in each space. Honestly, if I was looking to purchase a boat, I would probably walk away from one that didn't have AC. The work done, might be above code, but the absence of AC when it was there from the manufacturer screams some weird and extensive DIY work and would leave me very uneasy.

 

[Codger2]

.....there really is no reason to have an AC generator if you have good inverters and a DC one which are more efficient and charge faster.

I see where you are going with this thread as I have a similar system on my all electric Duffy. I did opt for the AC inverter option and a total of 3 additional outlets that are powered by the inverter. (TV, lamp, electric appliances, etc.) Only one outlet is powered by shore power. Keep in mind that my boat only cruises a max of 6.5 hours before the batts need charged. (shore power & AC charger) I think if I had your boat, I would definitely have a AC genny on board.

 

[Inbreaker]

I sailed a boat in the south pacific. For the first year the only AC appliances on the boat were a battery charger and a couple of pp fluorescent lights. Propane stove. The refrigeration was engine driven eutectic. We did not have a hot water heater (nor pressure water).
Off the grid it all worked fine, with a high output alternator and smart regulator, some solar and, eventually, a water turbine.
On return to reality, as it then was, it became a bit luxurious to have few AC outlets around the interior.
Changed engines 10 years ago. I had to lose the engine driven eutectic, and I replaced it with an electric AC/DC system. When the boat is in the pen, the fridge stays cold, all by itself, a miracle of the age of steam.
When my domestic arrangements changed, the absence of pressure water became unacceptable. A shower was then required. The small well insuated hot water tank runs off the engine heat exchanger - and AC power. I leave the dock with hot water.
If your boat is ever going to be left unattended, on a dock, in a cold climate, you're going to want AC power available, for heaters and fans.
If you're on a dock somwhere hot where you'll want aircon, you'll want shorepower.
By all means, reduce your AC requirements to the bare minimum (and your 12v needs as well), but keep your options open. You are not always going to be offshore or away from civilisation.

 

[MichaelD]

Gong wireless

Admittedly long ago, I lived for a few years aboard a 32’ 1930 Norwegian Pilot cutter. It had only 12v, and not a lot of that. I ran an extension cord for a battery charger or tools, but I didn’t miss the 120v. I liked the simplicity and the fact that it was essentially the same for me whether at sea, on the hook, or at a Marina. Of course now I’m on a stinkpot with all the trimmings and enjoy that convenience as well. I think It depends on your mindset: do you like the romance of the older traditional life at sea, or is it a vacation home?

 

[Theduke1948]

I replaced most my AC three years ago. I have an AC/DC fridge which chooses which power to use and 3 AC outlets in the boat. I don’t have an inverter and only use AC if plugged in to shore power. I have an AC charger which I have never used. I have only plugged into shore power when the boat is slipped for annual maintenance. I have DC evaporative air conditioning and diesel heating which is very efficient at 0.25lt per hour. I have 2 x 100ah solar panels and 3 x 120ah house batteries. I have never seen them drop below 13v. I use my river cruiser for day trips and short 3 to 4 day trips averaged about 100hrs per year. I am soon to explore the length of the Murray River in Australia for 4 to 5 months.

 

[rgano]

Admittedly long ago, I lived for a few years aboard a 32’ 1930 Norwegian Pilot cutter. It had only 12v, and not a lot of that. I ran an extension cord for a battery charger or tools, but I didn’t miss the 120v. I liked the simplicity and the fact that it was essentially the same for me whether at sea, on the hook, or at a Marina. Of course now I’m on a stinkpot with all the trimmings and enjoy that convenience as well. I think It depends on your mindset: do you like the romance of the older traditional life at sea, or is it a vacation home?

What sort of climate were you in while living aboard the Pilot cutter?