Replacing all electronics, Maybe

[PierreR]

I am going to build an electronic system that I feel comfortable with in the near future. First a bit of background.
I have a 1977 Hatteras 42 LRC with 1,710 hours total since new. Yes dock queen to the max, covered slip, fresh water. Updating? Nada. Everything is old, most of it works, but nothing is bastardized either. The newest electronics on the boat are at least 25 years old.
I put 425 hours on the boat last spring bringing the boat home from Madisonville Louisiana, 3,300 miles via east coast and Erie Canal. I used common sense, a 45 year old depth sounder and an I pad with Navionics. I had no serious issues, no wait for parts breakdowns, never touched bottom or put a ding in the boat.
My ability to install or work on boat systems is highly skilled. My ability to operate boats is quite skilled and my ability to operate electronics and get the most out of them is on the order of Grandpa asking his 5 year old grandson to help him with his I phone. My information on boat electronics is quite dated.

I presently have two Autopilots, both functional A Wood Freeman 500 and a Furuno 5500. A Furuno GPS same vintage (useless) a Furuno 48 mile radar with 6' open antenna same vintage and a couple of vintage depth sounders. Half of the engine instruments don't work. The boat has its share of ground like related gremlins. I have an upper and lower helm.
I could likely install any system but not design it. I do not know what is actually available and what it does and I do not know what brands are more intuitive or robust.
The boat show is this Thursday and I would a least like some ideas of what to ask these electronic guys.
I would like a least new autopilot controls, GPS and depth sounders from both helms. Budget? $15 to $30k max.
I at least know that networks exist and things can communicate with one another. I also know that two paths exist. One of very simple systems that are easy to use and the path of high integration that presents everything simple and easy to use. Don't know enough to know what I don't know and therefore will be a Pidgeon at the electronics booths.
Help would be appreciated. If you overwhelm me I will say so and ask for clarification.

 

[ScottC]

A very nice boat, PierreR! Amazingly, there was a 1977 Hatt 42 LRC sitting on the hard at my winter-marina here in Sweden for several years. It had been recently upgraded with a serious active stabilizer (fin) system. I contemplated buying this boat on more than one occasion, but could not bring myself to give up hybrid for this boat, no matter how fine it was.

You are in an enviable clean-slate position to be able to replace all electronics with a well-planned, coordinated system from scratch. Many have to make the best of sewing together a hodgepodge of components from different manufacturers if one of their devices fails and they don't have the budget or need, frankly, to replace everything.

Yes, there are communications standards that the various manufacturers SHOULD follow - but even if they do, it doesn't mean configuring everything and getting components by different manufacturers to play nicely together will be a breeze.

My advice to you, in your enviable situation, is to see if you can find a SINGLE manufacturer that can provide all the components you need (even if it means passing by a couple of best-of-breed components by a different manufacturer). Having all components by one manufacturer will most assuredly streamline setup and, perhaps more importantly, software upgrades and support later on. If you have a multi-manufacturer system, each manufacturer's support line will be quick to point you to "that other manufacturer's" component as the likely cause of xyz problem. Round and round....

 

[PierreR]

My plan is a single manufacturer, The problem is which one.

 

[rslifkin]

In my mind, the decision is between Furuno and Simrad. Likely leaning towards Furuno. I'm no fan of Garmin, and I've heard mixed reviews on the newer Raymarine gear, so I'd skip both of those.

Personally, I'd plan for an autopilot (with 2 controllers, 1 for each helm), satellite compass (which also gives a central GPS source instead of relying on internal GPS in the MFDs), an MFD for each helm, and a suitable depth transducer connected either to the sounder in one of the MFDs or to a networked sounder module. And then whichever radar you want from that manufacturer. I'd add AIS in there as well, but that doesn't have to be from the same manufacturer.

I'd go for networking everything, as it gives you flexibility. You can display charts, AIS data, or radar on any of the MFDs, you can have the autopilot steer to a charted waypoint, etc. And you can start off with one MFD at each helm (plus the autopilot controller). Then if you decide you want a second screen at one of the helms (to display radar on its own screen, for example) you can add that later, as it's just another display connected to the network (so all of the information just becomes available to it).

I don't think it'll be hard to put together a good package within your budget at all. If you want to start browsing through what Furuno and Simrad offer, I'd suggest looking at the Furuno TZTouch3 displays, Navpilot 711c autopilot, and NXT radars. For Simrad, look at the NSS Evo3S displays, any of their NAC-3 based autopilots, and the Halo radars. The big decisions that impact cost will be size and quantity of displays as well as size and power of radar (a higher output 6' open array being much more expensive than a 24" dome, for example).

 

[mvweebles]

What is your intended usage? What problem are you trying to solve? How do you plan to navigate? Are you the type that would input a route into an MFD and navigate by a route? Do you want your autopilot integrated into a chartplotter? Warning, even newer MFDs are a PITA to input a route into - much easier to export a route, but then you have issues with pairing devices which is it's own set of frustrations. Does your Wood Freeman A/P have NMEA0183 capabilities? If so, would give you options. I ask not because of budget, but sounds like something a bit more 'old school' may suit you - keep your existing radar. maybe a small MFD display for depth.

I run a very standard Simrad MFD sysem that is about 2-years old, but I'm still getting the kinks worked out. It took me a long time to get the autopilot tweaked - probably over 500 nms of futzing with it. And frankly, I'm slightly above average with stuff like configurations.

I have very limited real estate on my Willard 36. I snapped the attached pics a few minutes ago to give some idea of my new-ish Simrad system (12" MFD lower with dedicated repeaters; 2x9" upper -9" is barely large enough for single display, 12" barely large enough for dual display. Go bigger). Simrad tech support is not great - I would look Furuno. Also, even though I have my autopilot well setup, I miss my old Comnav.

Peter

 

[socalrider]

I did this with my CHB41 a couple of years ago. I would advise against over-complicating things. Depth is easy, GPS is even easier. I'd first focus on ground issues and engine instruments first.

I decided I wanted to network my engine gauges via SeaTalkNG. I think this was a mistake honestly - if I were doing it again I'd just go with analog gauges - with simple old engines like we have there's just not much to be gained. I mainly did it because it made my dash layout easier to manage.

Then I'd pick the autopilot - I'd even consider sticking with the one you have if it works & you like it, if you can find the parts you need. I got a Raymarine EV1 which is networked with my MFDs. It's kind of nice to have the course auto-correct for current/wind drift but honestly I'm up there checking things enough that manually compensating is fine, and the networking has caused me a bunch of problems that took a couple of seasons to fully resolve. Again if I were doing it again I'd probably skip the MFD entirely and just navigate by iPad. Obviously this all depends on your use case. I haven't needed radar.

 

[mvweebles]

My plan is a single manufacturer, The problem is which one.

I'd look at Furuno first. I've had some issues where tech support would have been nice - I understand Furuno is top shelf. Simrad is not great. Difficult to reach, long wait times, etc.

I know you said you can install the stuff, but that's relatively easy these days. Hard part is getting it configured properly. Rather than select the hardware, you might consider finding an installer who can re-sell. Buying from a retailer halfway across the country won't do you any good when you need help getting the system tweaked.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

I did this with my CHB41 a couple of years ago. I would advise against over-complicating things. Depth is easy, GPS is even easier. I'd first focus on ground issues and engine instruments first.

I decided I wanted to network my engine gauges via SeaTalkNG. I think this was a mistake honestly - if I were doing it again I'd just go with analog gauges - with simple old engines like we have there's just not much to be gained. I mainly did it because it made my dash layout easier to manage.

Then I'd pick the autopilot - I'd even consider sticking with the one you have if it works & you like it, if you can find the parts you need. I got a Raymarine EV1 which is networked with my MFDs. It's kind of nice to have the course auto-correct for current/wind drift but honestly I'm up there checking things enough that manually compensating is fine, and the networking has caused me a bunch of problems that took a couple of seasons to fully resolve. Again if I were doing it again I'd probably skip the MFD entirely and just navigate by iPad. Obviously this all depends on your use case. I haven't needed radar.

Ha! Sorta what I was saying. The stuff sure looks simple and intuitive when it's running in simulation mode, huh?

Peter

 

[PierreR]

Ha! Sorta what I was saying. The stuff sure looks simple and intuitive when it's running in simulation mode, huh?

Peter

I am not opposed to having things installed. My biggest problem is not trusting techy installers not to screw up other systems and the integrity of the boat over time.
Biggest problem with the gauges is the tachs started acting funny, then the synchronizer would not work, then the other tach quit and the autopilot would then not engage. Cables from the engines are fine, synchronizer is leaking oil and electrics are covered in oil. Got to get the meter in there and diagnose but 14 weeks out of rotator cuff surgery and I can't make my shoulder do that quite yet.
I suspect the Furuno 5500 autopilot picks up a tach signal. The upper station control has been compromised from water and is inoperable and might even have broken corroded wire issues. Hydraulic drive units are fine but controls should be replaced.
AIS is also on the list.

 

[PierreR]

The original Wood Freeman has not network capabilities while the Furuno is hooked up to an NMEA0183 network and I assume worked with the GPS for tracking but the GPS is first generation and largely useless to me. Satellite acquisition is poor and I never figured out how to really use it.
Original owner installed it about 1992 and used it to cross the Gulf from Huston direct to Key West a couple times a year.

 

[mvweebles]

I am not opposed to having things installed. My biggest problem is not trusting techy installers not to screw up other systems and the integrity of the boat over time.
Biggest problem with the gauges is the tachs started acting funny, then the synchronizer would not work, then the other tach quit and the autopilot would then not engage. Cables from the engines are fine, synchronizer is leaking oil and electrics are covered in oil. Got to get the meter in there and diagnose but 14 weeks out of rotator cuff surgery and I can't make my shoulder do that quite yet.
I suspect the Furuno 5500 autopilot picks up a tach signal. The upper station control has been compromised from water and is inoperable and might even have broken corroded wire issues. Hydraulic drive units are fine but controls should be replaced.
AIS is also on the list.

To my thinking, engine stuff is a separate project. Get it sorted.

There are interface units that take the electric pulse from your gauges and display on an MFD. I personally find them a cute distraction. The MFD has a menu page for instruments so many folks install the interface (myself included).

MFDs require periodic firmware upgrades. It's far from intuitive. Heck, you'd think that all you'd need to do to upgrade charts would be agree to pay for them. Nope, all sorts of hoops to get them on your MFD.

I'm not trying to be negative, just pointing out there's a harsh reality behind the glitz of a boat show demo. Right now, my MFDs chirp for some unknown reason, and passing boaters tell me my AIS icon is rotated 90-degrees to starboard. Could be these are related, but regardless, despite hours on hold with Simrad, I'm no further along with a solution. These are Simrad issues, but I can tell you that every system with have some dumb glitch such as trying to set a clock or other annoyance. Helps to decide whether your usage requirements justify the learning curve. Much is plug and play, but far from everything. If you remember how PCs were 20 years ago......

Peter

 

[PierreR]

I am married to a wife that is IT manager for Fuji Film Medical Services NA. She could figure out software stuff or have someone that can do it. She can figure out how to use any system installed. The problem is her explaining it to me. It's tough, you can't tune out a lot in 45 years of marriage and easily tune in at will.

My use will be coastal/ river/ Great Lakes cruising. Mostly marinas if available because my wife is handicap, enough that I have not figured out a dinghy solution yet.

 

[PierreR]

I can sort out the engine stuff just fine. At worst, a rebuilt synchronizer is a bit over a grand or so. Any more I am getting to the point of not wasting two hours of labor to fix a $7.95 clock.

 

[KnotYet]

I would want to keep the Wood Freeman as a backup, especially if yours has the
lovely large binnacle compass (with the label 'Handle Like Eggs') for course setting.

 

[PierreR]

I would want to keep the Wood Freeman as a backup, especially if yours has the
lovely large binnacle compass (with the label 'Handle Like Eggs') for course setting.

You mean the one the size of a breadmaker that is squarely in the way and you cannot put anything metal near it? Yeah, I got that one. It has its own separate hydraulic unit from the other one.

 

[RickyD]

Ok, I went through this similar scenario a couple years ago. I had a 35 year old Furuno radar still working on my old boat so I figured they would be reliable even today. My son is with the Navy Seals and their boats had Furuno. Commercial vessels all around me mostly have Furuno. My brother had just installed all Simrad system. I had a short time to work with it when helping to move his boat and he was new but it did not seem incredibly user friendly but hey I just had a few hours with it. Then I watched the Furuno videos comparing their systems to the other big three. Yes I know they put themselves in the best possible light but it is still impressive. So I did the whole nine yards. 16" MFD, Autopilot, 48 mile NXT dome (replacing my Raymarine 72 mile open array) Depth/fish finder with new transponder (here is where you need to make some serious considerations). One of my favorite decisions was upgrading the GPS antenna to the SCX20 Satellite compass that has four antennas built in with no worries about metallic interference and knows facing and direction at all times. Very accurate. Also, radar is amazing. I didn't need 72 estimated miles when I can't see even land that far over the horizon. The 48 NXT is amazing. If I split the screen I can see a seagull on the water near me and Catalina Island 25 miles away at the same time. The difficulty with making this decision based upon people like me is that everyone who has upgraded from old systems to new Ray, Sim, Gar, Fur, love their new system. Then there is the crowd that says all you need is a couple iPads and some software. I like the full integration. Unlike Peter, my autopilot syncs perfectly with my MFD Chartplotter. With the SCX20 antenna I easily tweaked my compass direction to perfection. The Time Zero 3 software is really great with reducing steps. It does not do auto routing but in my area that is something I would never need nor trust. You can get TZ3 software for an laptop or iPad and use the auto route function then download to the boat. The only thing I don't like is it takes a couple of steps to selecting a waypoint. Home-Lists-Waypoints-Select. My Raymarine system had a "Go to Waypoint" button. Good luck, there will be lots of info coming your way, lots to sort through. Just remember, they are all much better than what you have and you will be happy with any. The question is which one will you be happiest with.

 

[mvweebles]

..... Unlike Peter, my autopilot syncs perfectly with my MFD Chartplotter. .......

My autopilot also syncs very well. Challenge was initial configuration so it steered true without overworking itself Yea, there's a standard slow-circle routine, but that only gets you so far. I think that's common for all autopilots, though the newer ones have more adjustments than the older ones (in this case, not sure the additional features add any value).

My point to the OP was simply that while install is plug and play, configuration is not. Many features are buried deep in menus which are not always intuitive. Apple's credo of making things intuitive has not reached marine electronics yet.

Peter

 

[Comodave]

I agree on having one manufacturer. I like Raymarine. I have put their equipment in our last 5 boats and had absolutely outstanding support from them. In one case they replaced an 8 year old depth sounder module because they had some manufacturing problems with it. Who does that? Their stuff is pretty easy to use and upgrade. I hate to upgrade something that is working but they talked me through it without any issues.

 

[SteveK]

Dave I was wondering why Raymarine was not being mentioned.

 

[RickyD]

My autopilot also syncs very well. Challenge was initial configuration so it steered true without overworking itself Yea, there's a standard slow-circle routine, but that only gets you so far. I think that's common for all autopilots, though the newer ones have more adjustments than the older ones (in this case, not sure the additional features add any value).

My point to the OP was simply that while install is plug and play, configuration is not. Many features are buried deep in menus which are not always intuitive. Apple's credo of making things intuitive has not reached marine electronics yet.

Peter

Sorry Pete I guess I didn't think hard enough about what you said. I think the only parameters I messed with were the selections for response time. It was easy to find and used and a couple clicks and I have not felt the need to change. But, I also have stabilizers which help with consistency in heavier seas.

 

[Circumnavigator]

We took Raymarine around the world on Sweetwater and had a variety of problems.



I put Furuno on Fintry and never regretted it -- including AP, Satellite Compass, AIS, and Black Box chart plotter with two screens and a third screen for Open CPN.


I also put Furuno on Morning Light -- much the same setup. In both cases, I used a USB mouse and keyboard and did not use the Furuno control panel which seems kludgy to me.


Now that Morning Light is gone, I'll put Furuno on the new boat, once we find her.


It's noteworthy that in Fairhaven/New Bedford, where Fintry went every year for her haulout and where she is now, almost all of the fish boats (500? more?) have Furuno radars.


I do not use Furuno screens. Since the black box took 1280x1024 screens at a time when 1920x1080 was standard, I bought them at Salvation Army for $5. Big saving on the several thousand Furuno wants. Carried a couple of spares on long trips. Aside from needing 120VAC, they also cannot be dimmed enough for night, but you can do that easily in software. If you need them outside, you can buy off the shelf, 12VDC, waterproof, dimmable to zero, screens for around $500.


Jim


Sweetwater - Swan 57 sloop - circumnavigated 1995-98
Fintry - x Royal Navy Fleet Tender 2003-22 20k miles including x-Atlantic The Fleet Tender Fintry
Morning Light -- Webbers Cove 42 single screw trawler 2021- 23
Going back to sailing now that Morning Light is sold.

 

[ranger58sb]

I put 425 hours on the boat last spring bringing the boat home from Madisonville Louisiana, 3,300 miles via east coast and Erie Canal. I used common sense, a 45 year old depth sounder and an I pad with Navionics. I had no serious issues, no wait for parts breakdowns, never touched bottom or put a ding in the boat.

I presently have two Autopilots, both functional A Wood Freeman 500 and a Furuno 5500. A Furuno GPS same vintage (useless) a Furuno 48 mile radar with 6' open antenna same vintage and a couple of vintage depth sounders. Half of the engine instruments don't work. The boat has its share of ground like related gremlins. I have an upper and lower helm.
I could likely install any system but not design it. I do not know what is actually available and what it does and I do not know what brands are more intuitive or robust.

I would like a least new autopilot controls, GPS and depth sounders from both helms. Budget? $15 to $30k max.

We replaced a bunch of Mutt & Jeff components on the previous boat with a Furuno system of MFD, fishfinder/DST, AP, GPS, and AIS that complemented the existing Furuno monochrome radar. New stuff, excellent, and excellent customer support (although I've not needed much of that). The radar was bullet proof, no need to replace... partly because about 95% of the time I prefer radar on its own separate display anyway.

On this boat, we replaced the broken nav bits (plotter, depth, GPS) with Furuno TZT3 16, and added an extra (AIS) as a mini-system riding side-by-side with the existing (and actually working) Garmin MFD, radar, depth and Raymarine AP. The Furuno components are excellent, easy to use, etc. The Garmin system is about half-intuitive, but menu options seem to be spaghetti laid out by several designers... who never spoke with each other.

The Garmin system works well enough to not need replacing. (And I mostly use it for dedicated radar display, often split screen, one close, one further out.) And we're about an inch short of required width to add another Furuno TZT3 16. The Raymarine AP works fine, not needing replacement. If replacement of either of these became important, I'd just build out the Furuno network.

Annual NOAA chart updates for the Furuno are free, and they also offer C-Map charts as an option. Garmin charges about $100 for each annual chart update.

In your situation, I think I'd try to retain your existing AP, if you can control it from both helms. Should be able to, using NMEA0183 networking.

I'd retain the Furuno radar, especially if you can display output at both helm stations. If that only displays at one station, I might add a newer Furuno radar (which could display on a new Furuno MFD at both helms, but maybe still keep the old, too... and continue to use that dedicated screen for 95% of the time at the one helm.

I'd add AIS, which includes adding the new GPS that feeds it, and connect a new transducer to the new Furuno MFD too.

FWIW, I prefer screens large enough to be split into at least two segments, and for nav, we often display either one bit chart or two half-size, one close, one further out. Our 12" display (the Garmin) is about as small as will work that way for me. The Furuno 16" is even better. If you have space.

And then... I'd add a new VHF radio with DSC/emergency capability AND with a listen-back hailer AND with automatic foghorn... at each helm station (Ours is Icom.)

And then... I'd continue to use a tablet app as portable backup.

And we also use TimeZero on a laptop for planning and fixed-location backup... since it's a mirror of the Furuno system... but TZ or similar would maybe be going a bit far for your needs.

-Chris

 

[Pascall]

I don't understand the ergonomics of most yachts from the helmsman's seat to the controls.
On most yachts, when you're in the helm seat, you have to lean forward to steer or operate other equipment.
No touch screens for me, first of all I have to lean very far forward to operate them and secondly, they get very dirty.
That's why a remote control in both sides of the armrests, one for the pilot and one for the other equipment, radar, plotters, depth sounder and so on.
Engine and bow thruster controls are constructed next to the seat, resulting in comfortable steering of the boat.
Have Simrad myself, why, initially the autopilot (AP80), is really insanely well coupled to a GPS Compass.
The rest, I believe, but the pilot was leading.
As for the service, this is for the most part dependent on the supplier standing between the buyer and the manufacturer, so the supplier is actually in charge of the service. ( in the Netherlands)

Pascal.

 

[Mambo42]

I agree with MVWeebles: 'what problem are you trying to solve and what are you planning to use it for ?'
Are you going to make long passages and lots of nights out at sea or are you just cruising around with the shore always in sight ?
I have a radar, but basically never use it. Only when we make a night passage I use it, so although the radar is old....it functions and it does what it needs to do. So am not going to replace it.

In the pilothouse I have a Raymarine E120, which is connected to the radar and AIS. On the flybridge however I have a Simrad and obviously that cannot connect to the radar or AIS. The Simrad however is touch screen, the Raymarine is not.

THe autopilot control panel is in the pilot house, but on the Flybridge I have a remote. I cannot put in any routes in the AP, but I can simply turn the boat with the AP to remain on track.
Would it be nice to have all new screens etc ? Sure
Would I need them ? Not at all.
Would it be nice to have all the engine instruments etc on 1 screen ? Sure, until the screen breaks down of someone steels it. Then I can't see anything anymore.
Would it be nice to have the AP follow the whole route by itself ? Sure, but we do 5 - 6 kts. I can put in the next waypoint in the time we make the turn to the next CTS that Navionics gives me. And then I stop the turn on the AP.

Do you need a good GPS ?
Yep, you do and that is why I have 4 onboard plus the one in the tablet, the phone etc. So I can always find my exact location, even in one GPS would lose signal.

If I were to plan a trip with an ocean crossing it would become a different matter. But we won't do that. This year we will make several long stretches (40 hrs or more), but we will always be 10 or 20 nm from nearest land.

So, indeed I would say 'what is the ultimate goal ?'

 

[PierreR]

My use will be coastal/ river/ Great Lakes cruising. Mostly marinas if available because my wife is handicap, enough that I have not figured out a dinghy solution yet.

Easier to quote myself than repeat it.

 

[Insequent]

I'm a Furuno fan as well, and would start there. But only use one of their MFD's, on the flybridge (brightness, waterproof). Otherwise you will blow big holes in your budget really fast! Connect radar etc to it then, ethernet it to the lower helm. At the lower helm use MaxSea Time Zero Navigator and a simple and cheap NUC PC with something like a 24" monitor. MaxSea is 50% owned by Furuno, so perfect integration. Mouse click simplicity, drag waypoints to adjust etc. It all then replicates on the MFD on the upper helm.

 

[twistedtree]

Given the boat and intended use, this would be my cut at a system, with rough costs:


- Coastal Explored for charting. It uses official NOAA charts, not post processed/delayed update of the charts. It's still the easiest system to use. $400



- Run CE on an Intel NUC computer, and get a Rose Point Nemo gateway to interface to the rest of the nav electronics. $1000


- For display screens, I personally would get daylight brightness screens for both the pilot house and the fly bridge. You definitely need one, waterproof too, for the fly bridge. Some people are happy with commercial computer screens in the pilot house, but I'm not. It's not worth the cost of a Hattland or Furuno branded monitor, but there are much more affordable screens that I think are worth the premium for full dimming and daylight brightness. Search here on TF for recommendations, especially those from Steve Mitchell..


- You will need a keyboard and mouse for both the pilot house and the fly. Wireless devices might let you carry the same devices back and forth, but check to be sure reception is trouble free. Use dual screen mirroring in the NUC so the fly and PH show the same screen.


- Spend the $$ on a good satellite compass. A Furuno SCX20 ($1100) would be a good choice. This gives you position and heading with max accuracy, and will perform well with radar ARPA and an auto pilot. IF you want to spend more money on your system, this is where I'd do it first, upgrading to a Furuno SC70 ($4000).



- For an autopilot I'd get a Furuno NavPilot 700, or a Simrad AP70/AC70. Just figure out ahead of time how you are going to interface everything to be sure you have all the needed ports. The AC70 is a bit limited compared to the NavPilot, but you can also use an AC80 which is very flexible. ($??, but this will end up being one of the most costly subsystems)



- For radar I'd get a Furuno standalone radar. For your use one of their 24" dome radars would be more than sufficient. They make a variety of models, some with integrated screen, and some that are black box and use an external screen. Pick whatever fits best. With this approach you will NOT have radar overlay on your chart plotter, but for most experienced operators this is the preferred configuration. But you will have AIS targets on your radar, along with any that you track with ARPA. And if interfaced correctly, you will similarly have AIS targets and ARPA targets displayed on Coastal Explorer, so you will see the radar returns that you really care about without otherwise cluttering up your charts. ($$ not sure about current pricing, but a 24" dome radar with display is probably around $3000)


- For depth you will need to decide if a fish finder is important, or if you are OK with just a numeric depth reading. If you want a fish finder, the Furuno FCV series is excellent and reasonably priced. It includes an excellent display, and can send numeric depth to other devices (like CE) for display. If all you want is numeric depth, the Airmar DST800 family is the only game in town, and relabeled/resold by all the big vendors. But they have a very spotty reliability history. In my experience, depth (the "D" in DST) is pretty reliable, speed (the "S" in DST) never works at all, and temp (the "T" in DST) will fail in 1-3 years. So I get the DT model and don't even attempt to use speed, and enjoy the temp reading for as long as it lasts. ($500?)



- For AIS I would get one of the EmTrak class B devices. EmTrak is the retail brand for the company that makes nearly all of the AIS devices on the market, regardless of who's name is on it. ($500)



- For VHFs, I would only get Icom. I think it's a lesser of evils decision, because both Icom and Standard Horizon have crappy interfacing to other equipment. However, in my experience, the core radio from Icom is distinctly better than SH. I was always told they are equivalent, so I tried SH on my current boat. In less than a year I had replaced them with Icom because there was such a significant difference in radio performance. I like two VHFs so it's easy to monitor 16/9, while still being active on 13 or another working channel. To handle the flybridge, you can have two VHFs in the PH where they are weather protected, and use remote command mics on the fly bridge. ($500 to $1000 per VHF+remote)



- Interfacing, you can punt and just connect everything via N2K, but personally I will only use 0183 for primary nav data. That's position and heading from the sat compass to the Nemo (CE), AP, and radar. That prevents N2K issues from impacting primary navigation of the boat.


I have evolved to this approach after a couple of single-brand, integrated systems that were disappointing in one critical way or another, and have now built several nav systems using this current approach and been very happy with them. You need to take a little more time to plan it out, but it is spends money where it matters, usually costs less in total, and performs better.

 

[rslifkin]

- For VHFs, I would only get Icom. I think it's a lesser of evils decision, because both Icom and Standard Horizon have crappy interfacing to other equipment. However, in my experience, the core radio from Icom is distinctly better than SH. I was always told they are equivalent, so I tried SH on my current boat. In less than a year I had replaced them with Icom because there was such a significant difference in radio performance. I like two VHFs so it's easy to monitor 16/9, while still being active on 13 or another working channel. To handle the flybridge, you can have two VHFs in the PH where they are weather protected, and use remote command mics on the fly bridge. ($500 to $1000 per VHF+remote)

Which SH models did you have? I've generally found my GX1850s to be at least "good", particularly relative to what they cost.

Going through the specs, it looks like the receiver sensitivity and selectivity varies a good bit between models from both brands. Both companies are known for making good radio equipment (SH is a Yaesu brand).

Oddly, the high end SH unit (GX6000) has a slightly less sensitive receiver than the GX1850, but it's got a bit better selectivity. Many of the Icom models are comparable based on the specs, excluding the M605 which has a clearly better receiver than any of the other Icom or SH models. The M605 is price though at about $850 (about twice the price of the SH GX6000). The M510BB and M410BB receivers are just as sensitive as the M605 (and better than any of the other current Icom models), but the selectivity is not as good.

Given no budget constraints I'd definitely go for the Icom M605, but at a lower price point neither company stands out to me as clearly better based on the radio specs. And the SH equipment is quite a bit cheaper, so if looking at the mid level equipment I'd probably go that route and use the extra money to either add an additional VHF, a better AIS, or something along those lines.

On the additional VHF front, I have 2 in my current setup, but given no budget or space constraints (for VHFs and antennas) I think I'd lean towards 3, as that would allow almost complete avoidance of using dual watch (and having to deal with its quirks, like the blips in sound on the selected channel while it checks for transmissions on 16).

 

[ranger58sb]

We replaced a bunch of Mutt & Jeff components on the previous boat with a Furuno system of MFD, fishfinder/DST, AP, GPS, and AIS that complemented the existing Furuno monochrome radar. New stuff, excellent, and excellent customer support (although I've not needed much of that). The radar was bullet proof, no need to replace... partly because about 95% of the time I prefer radar on its own separate display anyway.

On this boat, we replaced the broken nav bits (plotter, depth, GPS) with Furuno TZT3 16, and added an extra (AIS) as a mini-system riding side-by-side with the existing (and actually working) Garmin MFD, radar, depth and Raymarine AP. The Furuno components are excellent, easy to use, etc. The Garmin system is about half-intuitive, but menu options seem to be spaghetti laid out by several designers... who never spoke with each other.

The Garmin system works well enough to not need replacing. (And I mostly use it for dedicated radar display, often split screen, one close, one further out.) And we're about an inch short of required width to add another Furuno TZT3 16. The Raymarine AP works fine, not needing replacement. If replacement of either of these became important, I'd just build out the Furuno network.

Annual NOAA chart updates for the Furuno are free, and they also offer C-Map charts as an option. Garmin charges about $100 for each annual chart update.

In your situation, I think I'd try to retain your existing AP, if you can control it from both helms. Should be able to, using NMEA0183 networking.

I'd retain the Furuno radar, especially if you can display output at both helm stations. If that only displays at one station, I might add a newer Furuno radar (which could display on a new Furuno MFD at both helms, but maybe still keep the old, too... and continue to use that dedicated screen for 95% of the time at the one helm.

I'd add AIS, which includes adding the new GPS that feeds it, and connect a new transducer to the new Furuno MFD too.

FWIW, I prefer screens large enough to be split into at least two segments, and for nav, we often display either one bit chart or two half-size, one close, one further out. Our 12" display (the Garmin) is about as small as will work that way for me. The Furuno 16" is even better. If you have space.

And then... I'd add a new VHF radio with DSC/emergency capability AND with a listen-back hailer AND with automatic foghorn... at each helm station (Ours is Icom.)

And then... I'd continue to use a tablet app as portable backup.

And we also use TimeZero on a laptop for planning and fixed-location backup... since it's a mirror of the Furuno system... but TZ or similar would maybe be going a bit far for your needs.

-Chris

I meant to say all that waffle was about what would work for our style of boating. Would be best to match all the hardware selection to what you intend to do where.

-Chris

 

[twistedtree]

Which SH models did you have? I've generally found my GX1850s to be at least "good", particularly relative to what they cost.

Going through the specs, it looks like the receiver sensitivity and selectivity varies a good bit between models from both brands. Both companies are known for making good radio equipment (SH is a Yaesu brand).

Oddly, the high end SH unit (GX6000) has a slightly less sensitive receiver than the GX1850, but it's got a bit better selectivity. Many of the Icom models are comparable based on the specs, excluding the M605 which has a clearly better receiver than any of the other Icom or SH models. The M605 is price though at about $850 (about twice the price of the SH GX6000). The M510BB and M410BB receivers are just as sensitive as the M605 (and better than any of the other current Icom models), but the selectivity is not as good.

Given no budget constraints I'd definitely go for the Icom M605, but at a lower price point neither company stands out to me as clearly better based on the radio specs. And the SH equipment is quite a bit cheaper, so if looking at the mid level equipment I'd probably go that route and use the extra money to either add an additional VHF, a better AIS, or something along those lines.

On the additional VHF front, I have 2 in my current setup, but given no budget or space constraints (for VHFs and antennas) I think I'd lean towards 3, as that would allow almost complete avoidance of using dual watch (and having to deal with its quirks, like the blips in sound on the selected channel while it checks for transmissions on 16).

My experience is based on just that - my experience. I have honestly never compared the specs. Previously I only had Icom radios, and was happy with the radio performance. On my current boat I built it with GX6000 SH VHFs, and from the get go didn't feel they were working well. Just monitoring VTS was much less clear, with more interference. The antenna installation was all new with LRM 400 cable, soldered connectors, top end antennas, etc. And swapping antennas between VHFs made no difference, so seemed unlikely to be an antenna problem. So as an experiment, I got an M510 and dropped it in to see how it performed. It was back to what I expected. Clear reception, no static, clear communications all around. So I replaced both VHFs and sold the GX6000. The M510s were distinctly more expensive, and I HATE the stupid wireless remote box that is required just for a loud hailer. So, so stupid, and so, so ignorant of how flakey wireless can be on a boat. But the radio works great, and that's what's most important from that particular device.


I also had one of the smaller GX radios on my tender, in an exposed location which they are supposed to support. It lasted just a little over a year and is now dead.


It's all very reminiscence of my unexpected education about radars, all of which I presumed to be comparable among the major brands. This was coming from experience with Furuno radars. Boy was I surprised when I switched to a Simrad radar system. That lasted less than a year as well, and was replaced with Furuno radars.


Same thing happened on my current boat with Inverters where I assumed that Outback's new (sort of) power boost feature would work, and provide capabilities similar to Victron and others. Boy was I wrong about that, and although after more than a year fight Outback refunded my money, it was still a very costly mistake because I had to do a complete uninstall and reinstall with Victron at my expense.


It's all a reminder that you know only what you know, and need to be careful assuming or extrapolating to other things. It's not unreasonable to do that, just a reminder that it's not the same as knowing, and for important systems, verifying in advance takes a lot of risk out of the build. But with these more complex systems, you really don't know how it works until it's all installed and you have used it for a while, at which point changing can be very painful. Swapping VHFs is easy. Swapping inverter systems and nav systems is a lot harder.