MMCC Man Made Climate Change

[SteveK]

Climate change is real and has occurred for the past 4.5 Billion years.

Of course no records were kept as man was not here. Record keeping on climate change appears to be 200 approx years old.
"So, in fact, the last ice age hasn't ended yet! Scientists call this ice age the Pleistocene Ice Age. It has been going on since about 2.5 million years ago (and some think that it's actually part of an even longer ice age that started as many as 40 million years ago)"
Yet some believe that CC is man made.
Deserts well south of the border reveal a receeding glacier that did not occur in our life time or even when man/then woman were created.

If the last ice age is not yet over how has man caused climate change?

 

[SteveK]

Google it!
When did the last ice age begin and end?

The Ice Ages began 2.4 million years ago and lasted until 11,500 years ago. During this time, the earth's climate repeatedly changed between very cold periods, during which glaciers covered large parts of the world (see map below), and very warm periods during which many of the glaciers melted.

 

[richard_wb]

Interesting that in the article you cited, you seem to have ignored the final paragraph.

"So it is very likely that Earth will turn cold again, possibly within the next several thousand years. But, we have to keep in mind that human activities today are impacting climate on a global scale. So when we predict future climate changes, including the next glacial period, we need to consider the changes that humans are causing.''

 

[SteveK]

Funny how you assume I ignored anything. The cycle of freeze/heat is never ending.

 

[Giggitoni]

I’m a geologist by profession. I often provide a time scale of earth history based on one year of our human-made calendar; January 1st being the formation of this planet and December 31st being the present. I provide this geologic time scale to demonstrate the vastness of earth history and hope people realize how insignificant human life spans are to this rock in space.

Study it closely. It’s amazing! One second of annual time represents about 146 years of geologic time. Meaning that the United States of America’s independence occurred less than two seconds ago!

Consider geologic time the next time you debate man-made -vs- natural climate change.

 

[SteveK]

Four ice ages? That means Global warming happened four times to melt it away. MMCC sure gets around.

 

[SteveK]

Yet you yourself bring it up in this thread!
But why start seeming consistent now.

Thanks for your Too bad you cannot see the difference in using it as an example when discussing the topic as opposed to discussing it within the thread.
AND another two posts where they need not be.

It looks a lot more like you can't help injecting an anti-MMCC reference any more than
a person with OCD can help straightening a crooked picture on a wall. Obsession?

[@KnotYet]
Where are you?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. SV. You seem to be labouring under a misconception, several, in fact.


1) Records of past changes HAVE been kept. Past climates can readily be determined from arctic and antarctic ice core samples (air composition, plant seeds/spores, snow/rainfall amounts etc.) and ice cores are just one of MANY methods of determining past climates.


2) "Yet some believe that CC is man made." CC has NEVER been man made. Climate had been changing since day 1. The current changes in climate HAVE been influenced by man but by how much and to what end is still a subject of debate.


3) While the link you post is directed to those with a grade 3 level of education and understanding the subject is much more complex and convoluted so basing one's view of MMCC on that simplistic explanation is akin to saying that if something has 4 wheels, it's a car.

 

[SteveK]

RT, please do share your insight above grade 3. Debate/discuss and even offer some proof to the contrary. MMCC is BS and cannot be measured. But it plays to the right audience.
Contributing towards it, man just by living we contribute towards it and even take away from it by absorbing carbon 14.

 

[SteveK]

How about that carbon tax the Paris accord put together.
Reduce greenhouse emissions by making fuel too expensive to use.

To meet the UN’s temperature-rise targets, the United States must reduce fossil-fuel-based energy demand by 85%.

To do that, the prices of those sources should increase by 44 times. The government should use a carbon tax along with other alternative

Canada has the tax too, still trying to find where the money goes. Unless you are in Ontario and three other provinces you do get a tax credit, why I don't know yet.

 

[caltexflanc]

Since we are in the dumbing it down mode here, let's put it this way. Fire has always been on earth. The characteristics and effects of fire change dramatically when someone pours gas on it.

 

[Giggitoni]

Four ice ages? That means Global warming happened four times to melt it away. MMCC sure gets around.

Actually the earth has gone through dozens of cooling and warming periods. Read about the “Mini Ice Age” from about 1300 ad and about 1860 ad. Very interesting. How did it start and end? And that started when the earth was still flat!

 

[Peter B]

Since we are in the dumbing it down mode here, let's put it this way. Fire has always been on earth. The characteristics and effects of fire change dramatically when someone pours gas on it.

Actually, that's not a bad way to illustrate this thing now called man made climate change. It is in effect, as Soo-V has pointed out, a misnomer. Climate change has always been happening.

The real issue is rather akin to sky-diving, in my view. Why, do you ask? Funny analogy..? Ok, because folks who like to skydive, point out they could just as easily be killed crossing the road, or in a car accident - more likely in fact statistically, as they are to die falling beneath an unopened parachute. The point they are missing is all these risks are additive. So the risk of dying skydiving adds to all the others.

Same with MMCC. It is adding to the natural tendencies, and acting to speed it up in a way not seen before man was able to make such an impact. We don't quite know just how much effect that 'speeding up' might have, but it could, (and I suspect, is), have all sorts of unexpected consequences. That's the scary bit. A good example of Rumsfeld's "unknown, unknowns"...

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. SV. As I have mentioned very many times on TF, I think MMCC is a red herring given the slow Man Made death of the oceans but MMCC should still be a concern BECAUSE the two are interrelated.



I fully agree MMCC cannot be accurately measured but that does NOT mean it isn't happening. You will never get me to say man's activities are not influencing the climate. They are. MY question is by how much?



We could get into a willy waving contest by posting a plethora of "studies" that confirm or deny MMCC but I'm not going there. I happen to feel that the science that supports MMCC is more credible than that which doesn't. Again, by how much?



I hesitate to bring up Greta because she is so, for want of a better term, rabid. Thus making her appear in some eyes, a joke. Very easy to point to Greta and say "Look at this kook. She must be spewing kooky stuff". So the real message she is trying to convey is lost in spite of it's importance.


People are getting rich selling "solutions" to the MMCC problems. There are a lot of scammers out there IMO. When just one of these scammers is found out it throws a very bad light on those actually trying to make changes for the better. Deniers can point to these scammers and rationalize that ALL attempts to improve the environment are a ruse.


The oceans man, the oceans.

 

[SteveK]

I looked up mini ice age which is also referred to as little ice age. 1300 to 1860.
Grand Solar Minimum was mentioned.
Apparently the sun cycles every 11 years and we are going through a GSM now. Some scientist say expect a weak Little ice age. It should not noticibly affecting warming caused by MMCC.

What was interesting is the most recent Mini Ice Age occurred during a Grand Solar Minimum. However, even though it ended around 1860 scientist have yet to agree what caused it but are quick to say it will not happen during this GSM.
The Baltic Sea froze twice.

Climate Change is constant.

 

[SteveK]

RT pollution caused by man is evident in our oceans. Acres of plastic out there. I wish I kept a video of garbage deliberately being dumped into a river in S. America. That was their place to get rid of it. What floats ends up in the ocean.
There was a ban on plastic straws because they were found in the ocean. Where did the straws come from?

 

[KnotYet]

[@KnotYet]
Where are you?

Your statements thus far do not make a case against MMCC. More than 1 cause is OK.
The very fact that the climate has changed so markedly in the past is reason enough
to reduce 'throwing more gas on the fire' and ameliorate that which we can.

 

[SteveK]

Maybe the world populations can have a daily one minute of everyone hold their breath and not exhale carbon dioxide.

Carbon dioxide (CO2) is the primary greenhouse gas emitted through human activities. In 2018, CO2 accounted for about 81.3 percent of all U.S. greenhouse gas emissions from human activities.

Exhaled air is rich in carbon dioxide, a waste product of cellular respiration during the production of energy.

 

[SteveK]

How about that carbon tax?
Well some more searching and reading has discovered (we are told it is so) that BC has the lowest provincial tax in Canada because the carbon neutral tax is supplementing the provincial tax. As a taxpayer paying less because I already paid at the pump, I should be accepting of this tax without questions.
But wait, apparently we also cut emmissions and gained jobs (so we are told).
No accounting found as yet or the costs of managing this new cash flow.
No one is getting rich and we are saving the enviroment by burning fossil fuels.
You just cannot make this stuff up.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. SV. Taxes? Sorry you can't get out of them no matter what they're labeled. I personally don't like where some of MY tax dollars are going or how they're spent but they have to be paid, like it or not.
Would you feel better if the "carbon tax" was called the "bail out your corporate buddy" tax instead? If so, you must have voted for Harper.

 

[Group9]

I'm not going to say anything, because I've learned not to get into arguments about religion with people.

 

[SteveK]

Greetings,
Mr. SV. Taxes? Sorry you can't get out of them no matter what they're labeled. I personally don't like where some of MY tax dollars are going or how they're spent but they have to be paid, like it or not.
Would you feel better if the "carbon tax" was called the "bail out your corporate buddy" tax instead? If so, you must have voted for Harper.

Of course I voted for Harper without hesitation as I did for Chrietien who remains in my mind the best finance minister we have had. So What?

I do not support secondary taxation, especially when there is no accountability. Tax my income and then tax my after tax dollar again.

I see the pump prices are shooting up in BC. Tax on fuel is a percentage of selling price.

 

[KnotYet]

I'm not going to say anything, because I've learned not to get into arguments about religion with people.

Agreed, especially when a zealot starts their own thread to proselytize about it.

 

[SteveK]

KnotYet, when at a loss for words usually suggest others do what they have already done.
If you cannot debate/discuss the message then shoot the messenger.

Edit: I apologise to my liberal friends for suggesting all liberals are like KY

 

[KnotYet]

Liberals, when at a loss for words usually suggest others do what they have already done.

Citation necessary...

 

[FF]

"Tax my income and then tax my after tax dollar again."

Taxation reduces the production of what is taxed. Since production is the source of wealth , it makes little sense to tax the goose that lays those golden eggs.

A simple sales tax on finished goods could be collected by the states (for 1% of the take) as it collects its share of taxes. Yes the tax rate would need to be about 20% to pay for current fed largess. A simple consumption tax.

No IRS , no income reporting , no personal record keeping , no 80,000+ IRS pages to comply with , no April 15!

Millions wasted on tax accountants / liars for hire, could be in productive use , your pocket!

 

[Bizsoft]

I have never understood this debate. Does it matter if CC is man-made or natural? If your boat is sinking trying to assign blame is far less relevant than figuring out how to plug the hole. The debate should be about how to resolve the problem. And, yes. There IS a problem.

 

[Derik]

Climate Change is simple if it's cause by man then simply put in a global effort to reduce it by reducing the world population.

Simple Science but just like Covid MMCC is used to alter our activities which lessens our quality of life. Most Government actions have little to do with Climate change but use that excuse to change our activities and normally there is a lot of dollar signs behind it the changes the are demanding.

So similar to Covid, here in CA schools are still closed as are most small business yet big box stores have been open since day one as are private schools. So in the United States of corruption MMCC initiatives are not to reduce the temperature of the earth just like Covid lock downs and regulations weren't meant to save lives.

Propaganda is used to divide us so nobody is held accountable. Most issues both libs and conservatives could agree on but not in our political jungle which is all based on power and money.

 

[hughespat57]

I’m a geologist by profession. I often provide a time scale of earth history based on one year of our human-made calendar; January 1st being the formation of this planet and December 31st being the present. I provide this geologic time scale to demonstrate the vastness of earth history and hope people realize how insignificant human life spans are to this rock in space.

Study it closely. It’s amazing! One second of annual time represents about 146 years of geologic time. Meaning that the United States of America’s independence occurred less than two seconds ago!

Consider geologic time the next time you debate man-made -vs- natural climate change.

I love things like that it truly provides "human perspective"
And so therefore includes modern meteorological records the oldest of which are based on ships logs since weather was so critical to sailing.
Yet even that is questionable as to "accuracy" since one ships thermometers and barometers may not be accurate compared to another and certainly not compared to today. That made no difference to the sailor he only cared which way they were going and how fast. Not ultimate accuracy.


And even the geological time line provided is an estimation based on past observations and theoretical devices such as "carbon dating" which themselves can not be proven accurate because we have no definitive reference point. They give us rough ideas.

 

[backinblue]

Regardless of whether I buy into CC being MM or not, the thing that I find funny is that many in the U.S. think it's our responsibility to solve this worldwide issue. Without citing data and just living in the U.S. for 62 years, my observations tell me that the U.S. has done a pretty good job and will continue to do so in the future despite our politicians taking private jets and entertainers on mega yachts traveling the world to tell us all that we need to do better.