Is there any new marinas in the pipeline in usa

[magna 6882]

I was wondering, what with government regulation and all, has anyone heard of a new marina being developed or proposed in america?

 

[tiltrider1]

Elliot Bay Marina started development in the 70’s, opened in the 80’s and the developer said that would be the last new salt water marina ever built in the NW due to impossible red tape. If it was that hard in the 70’s guess what you must be up against today,

I can tell you it’s extremely difficult and expensive to maintain our leases on private salt water marinas. I expect there will be fewer marinas in the future, not more.

 

[Blissboat]

It's true that commercial marinas come into conflict with a variety of environmental considerations, in almost any part of the country. But, the real estate market is the main thing impeding the building of new marinas.

Think about where you might want to build a marina, and then look at the availability of waterfront land. In urban or suburban places where developable land fronts on navigable waters, the most economically productive land use is residential, either single-family or multi-family. People want to live on the water. In order to compete with housing subdivision or (especially) condo developers, a marina developer has to pay a land cost that can hardly be justified by renting slips. Besides that, a marina is a long-term investment, while residential developers can typically recover their investment and take their profit within a few years.

If I owned a few acres of waterfront land with sheltered / protected water deep enough for boats whose owners could afford premium dockage, I'd love to build a nice marina. But I have to admit, my head would be turned by the faster, easier payday to be had by building condos with boat slips.

 

[mvweebles]

As an micro-example of red tape, 10 years ago I bought a small 1950s era condo on the ICW near our home in St Pete FL. It came with a deeded slip and I purchased the adjacent slip a few years ago with plans to combine them (not enlarge them, just reconfigure the pilings).. It's taken almost 2-years and a lot of money to work through several state and federal agencies including EPA, Army Corps of Engineers, FL Dept of Environmental Protection, etc. Part of the delay was covid induced of course, but i also hired an engineering firm who specializes in this type of work so process is as smooth as possible. And that was above the already difficult process just to aquire the slip and move it from one deed to mine.

For years, boats have been manufactured much faster than slip space. No wonder large institutional investors are buying marinas.

In my neck of the woods, a couple older marinas have been rebuilt to accommodate larger boats.

Peter

 

[rwidman]

One was built recently on the Wando River near Charleston, SC.

My home marina is expanding.

 

[rwidman]

............

If I owned a few acres of waterfront land with sheltered / protected water deep enough for boats whose owners could afford premium dockage, I'd love to build a nice marina. But I have to admit, my head would be turned by the faster, easier payday to be had by building condos with boat slips.

Several of the marinas we have stayed in as transients started out with that same plan, but the people who bought the condos didn't want the boat slips so they were converted to a "marina".

 

[Blissboat]

Several of the marinas we have stayed in as transients started out with that same plan, but the people who bought the condos didn't want the boat slips so they were converted to a "marina".

Yep, that's a way to smuggle a "marina" at least part of the way around land-use and zoning restrictions, as well as to amortize the costs of permitting, submerged land leases and slip construction across a much bigger revenue stream.

Some upscale condo HOAs are averse to slip rentals, though. The full-time residents often are put-off by the bustle, and vote to adopt rules or bylaws against the practice. There are hundreds of ways to peel that onion - it depends on the clientele that the developer is pitching the product to. Vacation condos are typically the most relaxed, as everyone is accustomed to strangers coming and going from day to day. Even so, it's common to see rules limiting the maximum duration of stay, prohibiting live-aboards, etc. And of course fuel sales or a ship's store, which add to the marina's financial sustainability, generate activity that can be unwelcome to neighboring residents.

 

[psneeld]

I may be wrong, but some states have legislation that if you knock down a marina and build condos, any unused owner slips HAVE to be rented and having read many a sign at marinas stating a certain percentage of slips be publicly available.

All that can change in the drop of a hat but there are some watchdogs watching the complete ownership and it limiting access to the water. Same as beach access even in exclusive areas.

Liveaboards are the dirty word, but public availability of slips may be a legal issue.

Big new marina slowly going in on east leg of the Okeechobee Canal.

 

[rwidman]

Yep, that's a way to smuggle a "marina" at least part of the way around land-use and zoning restrictions, as well as to amortize the costs of permitting, submerged land leases and slip construction across a much bigger revenue stream.

Some upscale condo HOAs are averse to slip rentals, though. The full-time residents often are put-off by the bustle, and vote to adopt rules or bylaws against the practice. There are hundreds of ways to peel that onion - it depends on the clientele that the developer is pitching the product to. Vacation condos are typically the most relaxed, as everyone is accustomed to strangers coming and going from day to day. Even so, it's common to see rules limiting the maximum duration of stay, prohibiting live-aboards, etc. And of course fuel sales or a ship's store, which add to the marina's financial sustainability, generate activity that can be unwelcome to neighboring residents.

My point was more along the lines of, The developer thought the people who bought the condos would buy the slips but they didn't so to avoid losing money, they started renting the slips to transients or leased the slips to someone who would operate them as a marina.

Not any sort of plan to get around red tape.

 

[PennBruce]

Safe Harbor will be expanding their facility in Port Royal, SC.

Bruce

 

[PJHoffnet]

New (actually a 'replacement' for a facility pretty much destroyed by hurricanes in 2004 that has sat vacant since) Margaritaville themed one in Melbourne, FL. Around mile marker 917 on the AICW.
https://www.floridatoday.com/story/...itaville-resort-planned-melbourne/8763838002/

 

[AquaDestiny]

I see a new Marina going up on the Okeechobie waterway between near Indiantown between Indiantown Marina and the St. Lucie Lock.

 

[AquaDestiny]

https://indiantownmarinecenterfl.com/

Looks too rich for my tastes.

 

[rgano]

A new one going in somewhere near the GIWW cut which connects Chocktawhatchee Bay (Destin/Ft Walton) to the west and West Bay on the east side (Panama Cicty and Panama City Beach) is going in this year. It will be associated with the newest 55 and older community called Lattitude Margaritaville. It was just announced, and as usual the lubberly local newscasters had zero information. Do not know if it will be open to transients, but I will eventually find out and post on Active Captain.

 

[backinblue]

Large new and expensive state of the art marina was built in Bridgeport CT a couple years ago. Still mostly empty during the season but it's part of a bigger long term waterfront development. Other waterfront land in neighboring towns is also being reclaimed and developed so I expect more marinas and boating condos will be built. I don't understand the regulation angle, but it doesn't seem to be stopping those who want to build. The docks and facilities are truly impressive. They often handle mega yachts that other marinas can't.

https://www.bldsteelpointe.com/

 

[Hippocampus]

More slips are going in East Greenwich R.I. Next to Prime and the yacht club. But agree it’s getting difficult as a transient to find space.

 

[backinblue]

Also, in Saugatuck (Westport) CT they are planning to dredge the river that has not been navigable for like 50 years and expect it to become a boating destination, so I expect there will be new slips/marinas there in a few years. No shortage of demand so I expect supply and prices to continue to grow.

I have never had a problem finding a transient slip in the area however. Might be harder in some destinations like Block, or Newport or Montauk or NYC, but in general I always seem to find transient slips when needed.

 

[BandB]

Yes, there will be new marinas built. No, I can't tell you when or where.

Regulation is a challenge but the bigger challenge is financial. It's finding and buying the land and being able to charge adequately to provide a reasonable return. Just read here the whining about prices in some areas and you'll understand because new marinas must include current land costs and current costs to build and therefore will, by necessity, charge rates at the top of or beyond the current market.

There's an available marina property in Fort Lauderdale that's been through several owners including a bank. The original plan was incredible but attempts to sell slips failed miserably. I knew of an opportunity in Myrtle Beach. A developer had plans and even purchased some slips for one on the TN River near Chattanooga. These are just three I know of that were fully permitted.

 

[mvweebles]

Yes, there will be new marinas built. No, I can't tell you when or where.



Regulation is a challenge but the bigger challenge is financial. It's finding and buying the land and being able to charge adequately to provide a reasonable return. Just read here the whining about prices in some areas and you'll understand because new marinas must include current land costs and current costs to build and therefore will, by necessity, charge rates at the top of or beyond the current market.



There's an available marina property in Fort Lauderdale that's been through several owners including a bank. The original plan was incredible but attempts to sell slips failed miserably. I knew of an opportunity in Myrtle Beach. A developer had plans and even purchased some slips for one on the TN River near Chattanooga. These are just three I know of that were fully permitted.

At the upper end, these three marinas might mean 700-800 slips (guess). Compared to local market, guessing new boat sales have far out paced new slip availability. Problem exacerbates, not resolves.

Peter

 

[BandB]

At the upper end, these three marinas might mean 700-800 slips (guess). Compared to local market, guessing new boat sales have far out paced new slip availability. Problem exacerbates, not resolves.

Peter

In most of the country there are still slips available. We tend to overlook the lean years post 2008-09 and the fact that even for the next decade there were fewer boats seeking slips than previously. The pandemic surge in boat sales only makes up for all the lean years. So, on a two year basis new boat sales have outpaced new and opened slip availability but that's not been the long term impact. Cycles don't exacerbate but resolve normally.

Your guess for slips for those three is reasonable, but there are other potential marinas all around the country. They just are not financially attractive at this point and the need isn't there.

There are also other trends and one trend over recent years is the need and conversion of marinas to serve larger boats and dry storage, especially indoor dry storage for smaller boats. The vast majority of boats are 40' and under and all of those can be accommodated by dry storage. I think of a specific ICW marina. It currently has 25 boats over 40' docked and 125 boats under 40'. Dry storage is designed and approved with initial capacity of 250 boats and potential of 400. Let's just look at phase I. That would change the wet slips to 60 slips over 40' and 25 under 40' plus 250 dry slips. So that would satisfy needs for years to come at that location.

I look at Lake Chickamauga in TN and slips are very much in short demand even though plenty of slips available one lake down. However, one large dry storage unit on Lake Chickamauga and you'd no longer have a slip shortage as the vast majority of boats would easily be accommodated. By comparison, Lake Norman NC, Safe Harbor now owns 4 marinas with 800 wet slips and 800 dry slips. Dry slips first became popular there in the 70's.

2019 new boat sales still were less than 2007. Plus since new boat sales were low from 2008 to 2018 or so, late model used boat sales were slow too. That leaves a lot of older boats and a lot of boats to be retired over the next few years. You may not think of retirements so much in trawlers even though there are quite a few, but trawlers are a small segment of the market and there are a lot of other boats, especially smaller ones retired every year. Boats now 20-40 years old find themselves stacked and stored in yards as often as they find themselves purchased and put in a slip.

I believe we currently have two (and there are more) major aggressive marina investors and anywhere demand is there for more slips, they'll respond. I believe much of it will be purchasing small marinas and enlarging them. A lot of marinas are already permitted for additional slips or at least have preliminary approval and owners just aren't willing to make the investments. I looked at hundreds of marinas years ago, evaluating the potential, much as Safe Harbor has. The most valuable properties weren't those 100% leased but those with expansion capability and Safe Harbor and Suntex have purchased a lot of expansion opportunities.

 

[Hippocampus]

What goes on with rack storage or trailer boats wouldn’t seem to be the focus of this discussion. Rather the issue of concern for most here is trawlers or similar vessels that meet documentation requirements.

More specifically boats in the 40-55’ range. Had a interesting conversation with a manager at IGY. Big money to be made with large vessels. More work done servicing by the yard. More systems to service. More ancillaries consumed. Small boats take up less floor space and use fewer in-house services but for unit area make up for it in volume. It’s in the middle there’s less profit. More self servicing using products bought outside the facility or done by outside vendors. Lower margin.

Used to be yards preferred power to sail. More profit per unit area of berthing. That has shifted as sail is now as complex as power as regards components and servicing needs. But the middle being still the least profitable was my takeaway from talking with him.

Think that will be reflected in new construction. There’s a noticeable shift to selling “lifestyle “. Straight working yards are being phased out. Now you see yards with a restaurant, pool, manicured grounds and multiple non essential lifestyle improvements. You go to a restaurant to eat the food. They make the money on the drinks. Same is occurring with marinas. I’m concerned about the quality of the dock, shore power, fresh water and service techs. But that’s not what’s being sold. So I’m stuck paying for “ lifestyle “ as well. I can only hope enough people spend on “lifestyle “ that small and midsized berthing persists. So the dock queens serve a function for me not to be discounted. My favorite yard was 3/4 commercial and scuzzy. But the work was extremely high quality. Prices reasonable. They explained what they were doing and why. You learned and they even gave good advice so you could DIY. You either went to your boat and worked on it or went off cruising. It wasn’t a social spot to hang out. Now it’s a popular bar, pick up spot, mediocre restaurant, large area of rack storage, some slips and a fuel dock. The working trawlers and lobster boats have left. In season more tourists than boaters in the area. Finding parking is a chore.

 

[hatchetjoe]

New Marina in St Marys, GA

A totally new marina is being developed in St Marys, GA a couple of miles off the Atlantic ICW. It is part of the "Cumberland Inlet" project by Jacoby Development. There will be dry stack storage as well as a new keyhole basin with 160 slips on the North River. The marina is to be managed by Oasis Marinas. This development is on a 750 acre brown field site of a defunct paper mill. Jacoby Development has previously developed a brown field site in Atlanta, GA now known as Atlantic Station into a major upscale multiuse area. (Disclaimer: I have no affiliation of any type with Jacoby Development.)
Major advantages of a marina in St Marys include: direct access with no bridges or other obstructions to the St Marys all weather inlet, direct access to the ICW, on the Georgia side of the FL-GA border which changes ratings for some insurance companies, and small friendly town only 7-10 miles from I-95.

 

[BandB]

What goes on with rack storage or trailer boats wouldn’t seem to be the focus of this discussion. Rather the issue of concern for most here is trawlers or similar vessels that meet documentation requirements.

.

No one mentioned trailer boats but rack storage is definitely connected as it frees up a lot of slips. It is part of the total picture and availability of marina storage. Trawlers compete for total space and dry storage while targeting a freeing of space for larger boats, also frees space for trawlers over 40'. Smaller trawlers are excellent candidates for dry rack storage as facilities built today are more able to handle larger boats.

 

[Hippocampus]

Accepted. However what I’ve seen to date has been modified forklifts. Seen rather large center consoles but weight remains a restriction so few FD or even larger SD boats in racks. We ran a center console we used for striper and some fly fishing kept on the racks while we had a sailboat. It was surely convenient. Thought about giving up the ability to fly fish by putting a tower on it. Although a small boat was told a lousy idea by the yard as height was another restriction on whether it could be rack stored. Other problem was the yard wanted rack stored boats to leave ASAP once in the water. They had very limited in water dock space for them. Would think that would be inconvenient for trawler owners.

 

[BandB]

Accepted. However what I’ve seen to date has been modified forklifts. Seen rather large center consoles but weight remains a restriction so few FD or even larger SD boats in racks. We ran a center console we used for striper and some fly fishing kept on the racks while we had a sailboat. It was surely convenient. Thought about giving up the ability to fly fish by putting a tower on it. Although a small boat was told a lousy idea by the yard as height was another restriction on whether it could be rack stored. Other problem was the yard wanted rack stored boats to leave ASAP once in the water. They had very limited in water dock space for them. Would think that would be inconvenient for trawler owners.

Many now use various forms of travel lifts. There are not totally automated units too. Keep in mind that if space is freed by storing other boats in racks, then that frees space for trawlers that may not have a usage style compatible with rack storage.

Before we moved to the lake, I had rack storage and a wet slip as I wanted a space to dock during the day and stay out late and use all weekend.

 

[Hippocampus]

Yup have seen those and various forms of automated moveable racks inside the storage building. Agree it has freed up space for other uses. Still, since I’ve started boating berthing has been a limiting factor. To the point lack of local availability and expense impacts the boat buying decision. My feeling (no formal evidence) is some don’t boat or only charter due to this state of affairs.
In America’s Home Town (Plymouth MA) the waiting list for a mooring has always been decades. There’s fewer moorings for boat = or >40’ there. Same in Marion so suspect commonly true elsewhere. Wait times have only gotten longer. Towns rather put in moorings with smaller swing diameters so they can pack more in.
We used to use a hauling service in Mattapoisett. You’d bring your boat to that town. They’d haul it and store it on huge fields a few miles in land in that town. Got around the expense and limited availability of seasonal storage to some extent but in water remained a difficulty.
My impression is at least for the northeast things have gotten much worst. Berthing expense has skyrocketed. Storage needs to planned up to a year in advance. Think it’s worst everywhere we go. We’ve booked our Xmas storage in the Bahamas already having been told if we don’t there be no space available where we want to stay.
Weird world. It was cheaper to book a slip for a season than for a few occasional weeks in R.I. We won’t occupy that slip for more than half the time paid for but needed that reliable berthing during the summer so we could also spend land and family time ashore. Most people aren’t full time cruisers so reliable berthing is a big deal.
So totally agree with the implied premise of the OPs original question. There’s not enough berthing and moorings. It’s gotten worst and more expensive. The middle of the market is hardest hit. Economic forces favor small boats and large but not the middle. This is being enhanced by consolidation of the marina industry. Please share your personal experiences to support or deny this impression.

 

[OldDan1943]

I am in Waterways Marina, about 1075 of the AICW. There are 2 story condos surrounding the basin. When the condos were first built, the slips were offered to the condo buyers. Seems the condo buyers were not interested. No boat, liked the view of the pond. Boats moved in, blocked the view, from the condos. The condo folks started to complain, no view, diesel smell, workers on the boats etc. They wanted, I think to throw out the boat owners. HA HA, that did not work. I own 2 slips, rent one, park my boat in the other. The original marina builder had plans to put in another dock and slips off of that. The owner waited too long to start…. Seems their permission approval expired and when they were back for a renewal, the EPA folks said, no way, so we are limited to 100 slips and a huge basin. SMILE

 

[BandB]

Yup have seen those and various forms of automated moveable racks inside the storage building. Agree it has freed up space for other uses. Still, since I’ve started boating berthing has been a limiting factor. To the point lack of local availability and expense impacts the boat buying decision. My feeling (no formal evidence) is some don’t boat or only charter due to this state of affairs.
In America’s Home Town (Plymouth MA) the waiting list for a mooring has always been decades. There’s fewer moorings for boat = or >40’ there. Same in Marion so suspect commonly true elsewhere. Wait times have only gotten longer. Towns rather put in moorings with smaller swing diameters so they can pack more in.
We used to use a hauling service in Mattapoisett. You’d bring your boat to that town. They’d haul it and store it on huge fields a few miles in land in that town. Got around the expense and limited availability of seasonal storage to some extent but in water remained a difficulty.
My impression is at least for the northeast things have gotten much worst. Berthing expense has skyrocketed. Storage needs to planned up to a year in advance. Think it’s worst everywhere we go. We’ve booked our Xmas storage in the Bahamas already having been told if we don’t there be no space available where we want to stay.
Weird world. It was cheaper to book a slip for a season than for a few occasional weeks in R.I. We won’t occupy that slip for more than half the time paid for but needed that reliable berthing during the summer so we could also spend land and family time ashore. Most people aren’t full time cruisers so reliable berthing is a big deal.
So totally agree with the implied premise of the OPs original question. There’s not enough berthing and moorings. It’s gotten worst and more expensive. The middle of the market is hardest hit. Economic forces favor small boats and large but not the middle. This is being enhanced by consolidation of the marina industry. Please share your personal experiences to support or deny this impression.

Omg, I'm been to Plymouth but America's Home Town? lol. 1620 vs. 1607 vs 1513. Let the wars begin.

Removing small boats from the wet slips will impact the middle. You want to solve Plymouth Harbor, built a dry storage unit for 400 boats.

I agree certain areas have problems. In New England boating is seasonal and difficult to justify marina builds. The rates they would need to charge aren't those boaters are currently willing to pay. They really need annual rates for half year seasons. Still space availability has fluctuated. Marina people I've talked to say there were empty slips from 2010-2014 after no availability in 2003-2008. I think your impression of things being much worse are true impressions but one must be careful as to when they're comparing. Much worse than 8 to 10 years ago, yes. Much worse than 25 years ago, yes. Much worse than 15 years ago, perhaps in some places, but generally not.

I agree with you on moorings. Never found one we could use (other than Catalina). I think it's not a coincidence that the two areas that seem most short of slips are those with mooing fields, RI/MA and the Puget Sound area.

I want to share examples of two dry storage units located very close to each other in Fort Lauderdale. F3 can handle 46' LOA, 20' Height, 30,000 pounds and is all automated by lift, no fork lift, hurricane rated to 170 mph. Port also uses a cradle and one wall handles to 42' while the other handles 52' but still the 30,000 pound limit and as a 10 year old facility only rated to 135 mph, which is still above anything ever to hit Fort Lauderdale. Why not similar in NE? NE boaters wouldn't be willing to pay the price. That simple. They make sense in Fort Lauderdale where marinas are $25 to 45 per month and wet slips require 12-15 bottom cleanings per year. Again, it's economics. Plymouth Harbor has, to my knowledge, only one full service marina in Safe Harbor Plymouth which was a Brewer property. Very small with 100 wet slips and 60 dry. The dry can only handle up to 23' and the wet slips are mostly 40' and less with a few up to 50' but larger only on end tie. However, within 50 miles there are available slips. Just not right there. And within 50 miles a lot of larger slips.

A season being easier than a few weeks is true most places. It's either transient or seasonal rates, but few marinas willing to commit to weeks or months in advance at anything other than transient rates. Not going to do discounted short term rentals in peak season. Christmas storage in Bahamas, of course it's booked in advance. Peak season, holiday?

I don't argue that at various places there are shortages, but I do contend when economically beneficial there will be new marinas built. And I would not build in Plymouth but might in Boston or Newport.

 

[backinblue]

OIn New England boating is seasonal and difficult to justify marina builds. The rates they would need to charge aren't those boaters are currently willing to pay. They really need annual rates for half year seasons.

B, I don't understand your point here. Yes boating in New England is seasonal and so are the marina fees. Most commonly, you pay a summer slip fee and a winter land storage fee. Combine those together and you have your annual fee that most boaters are willing to pay judging by the fact that most marinas are nearly full to capacity.

The length of the season does not determine the fee, it's more about property value and income level that sets the price of what the market will bear. Boating in the Carolinas might have twice the boating season but half the cost for a slip.

Again I have to point out the Steele Pointe marina that was just completed a couple years ago in Bridgeport, CT. Certainly looks like they spared no expense and it is marketed as a luxury destination. I can't say it's a success yet, but someone has a vision that they are willing to spend on.

 

[BandB]

B, I don't understand your point here. Yes boating in New England is seasonal and so are the marina fees. Most commonly, you pay a summer slip fee and a winter land storage fee. Combine those together and you have your annual fee that most boaters are willing to pay judging by the fact that most marinas are nearly full to capacity.

The length of the season does not determine the fee, it's more about property value and income level that sets the price of what the market will bear. Boating in the Carolinas might have twice the boating season but half the cost for a slip.

.

There is not just the reduced slip rental due to the short season as winter land storage doesn't pay what slips do. There is reduced work for the yard and reduced sales in other ways such as no fuel sales during half the year. Staffing is a huge challenge when you have no work for a large part of your staff for half the year. It's a lot easier to run a profitable marina in a warm climate just like it's much easier to run ice cream and yogurt stores. Doesn't mean it's not possible in colder climates, just means fewer total sources of revenue for much of the year.