Hybrid Boats

[Marin]

A fellow just posted about his GB42 hybrid conversion on the GB owners forum.* Replaced one of the 210hp Cat diesels with a 145kw electric motor. Says there is better maneuverability with the electric motor and significantly reduced fuel usage.* The downside is the cost--- it is WAY expensive and is really not cost-effective unless one's desire for a "greener" boat far exceeds one's desire to not spend more on a boat than it's worth.

Then a forum participant from England posted this website for a boat he's contemplating replacing his GB32 woody with.* http://greenlinehybrid.com/?jezik1=ang

Thought the electric power fans on this forum might be interested.

Here are couple of photos of the Greenline.* I wonder how seagulls will react to that big shiny array of solar panels on the cabin top.......



-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 8th of January 2011 04:46:45 PM

 

[Codger2]

RE: Hybrid boats

This is really great news to the Prius drivers of the world!* (I'm one)
Thanks, Marin, for bringing this to the Forum. I have been wishing that I'd* see a "true hybrid" boat before hanging up my PFD and this just might be it! Rest assured, I'll be looking in to it.

 

[Moonstruck]

RE: Hybrid boats

Marin wrote:

A fellow just posted about his GB42 hybrid conversion on the GB owners forum.* Replaced one of the 210hp Cat diesels with a 145kw electric motor. Says there is better maneuverability with the electric motor and significantly reduced fuel usage.* The downside is the cost--- it is WAY expensive and is really not cost-effective unless one's desire for a "greener" boat far exceeds one's desire to not spend more on a boat than it's worth.

Then a forum participant from England posted this website for a boat he's contemplating replacing his GB32 woody with.* http://greenlinehybrid.com/?jezik1=ang

Thought the electric power fans on this forum might be interested.

Here are couple of photos of the Greenline.* I wonder how seagulls will react to that big shiny array of solar panels on the cabin top.......



-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 8th of January 2011 04:46:45 PM

Pretty boat at the waterline up.* Below, if planing that hull would beat you to your knees.* With power stored from the solar panels, you could probably run at the speed*inu the pictres for about 5 minutes.**It would be interesting to see if the cruising speed on electricity is more than 5 knots (and for how long).* My low speed electric vehicle burns that clean coal generated electricty,* While my diesel car uses that dirty fuel from under ground.* The answer seems to be burn our food for transportation.*

*

 

[RickB]

Hybrid boats

Marin wrote:Here are couple of photos of the Greenline.* I wonder how seagulls will react to that big shiny array of solar panels on the cabin top.......

Funny that you ask. I was recently onboard the "Turanor PlanetSolar" in Miami for a yachting media event.

My interest was in the propulsion system as I was asked to write a technical piece for one of the megayacht magazines. When I was shown the array and considered that it is glass coated and effectively out of bounds for the daily yachtie washdown ceremony, the question about salt and seagull deposits was my first question.

The solar array aft of the wheelhouse is shown in my current avatar.

Seagulls aren't a big problem as they have nowhere to perch so the odd bomb is a rarity and salt crystals just don't collect to the point of reducing collection efficiency enough to even consider. The rain and nightly dew cleans it off enough.

Moonstruck got the real point as far as hybrids go. There is no free lunch in the marine propulsion business.

That guy replaced his 210 hp diesel with a 195 hp electric motor and a few tons of batteries that need charging off a 3 or 400 hp diesel after a very short time at any kind of speed if he doesn't want to slow down below hull speed for a very long period or head for a dock.* Boats that don't have access to shore power recharging so that the pollution is displaced (except for nuclear or hydro of course) or need quiet no emission maneuvering in sensitive areas for some reason, just don't fuflill many promises. Boats don't regenerate power so they can't be compared to cars.


IMO it's a not-so-clever-anymore publicity stunt that costs way more than any perceived savings would ever return and probably has a higher "carbon footprint" than the diesel powered version.



*


-- Edited by RickB on Saturday 8th of January 2011 06:04:02 PM

 

[rednev]

RE: Hybrid boats

nordhavn did two no expense spared diesel electric builds.
Writing about the program on a nordhavn enthusiast web site dan streech**
co owner/president of nordhavn used the phrase train wreck.
If they cant make it a viable proposition hard to imagine a backyard conversion being viable.

 

[Moonstruck]

Hybrid boats

rednev wrote:

nordhavn did two no expense spared diesel electric builds.
Writing about the program on a nordhavn enthusiast web site dan streech**
co owner/president of nordhavn used the phrase train wreck.
If they cant make it a viable proposition hard to imagine a backyard conversion being viable.

Pushing a boat is like a truck constantly pulling a hill.* The work loads on the engines never let up.* The batteries we have today just don't have the storage capacity to handle those kinds of loads.* Wind, solar, and ocean wave generation of electricity depend on the vagaries of nature.* I can see wind working in the trade wind belt to some extent.* Solar has some application in the Med and semi-tropical to tropical areas, but still the technology has miles to go.

RickB is right.* In automotve and street cars and the like the energy generated from braking can be somewhat stored in a flywheel or battery.* There are alot of variables in fuel mileage so it is hard to say just exactly how much fuel is saved by the hybrid engines.* When a car is bought for good gas mileage, it is usually driven for good gas mileage.* The hybrid car is a sophisticated, complicated piece of technology.* I applaude those that drive them, but I am not particularly happy about helping to pay for them through subsidies.* When they can sell in a free market, I will say the technology has arrived.

*


-- Edited by Moonstruck on Sunday 9th of January 2011 08:48:00 AM

 

[Baker]

RE: Hybrid boats

I had heard rumors that Lagoon put a lot of it's resources into hybrids....don't know the details but it pretty much sunk them. Not to mention the expense that everybody already has....nobody wants them. There is no market.

 

[healhustler]

RE: Hybrid boats

Baker wrote:

I had heard rumors that Lagoon put a lot of it's resources into hybrids....don't know the details but it pretty much sunk them. Not to mention the expense that everybody already has....nobody wants them. There is no market.

That's true. *Lagoon built several Electric powercats using the innovative Electric Wheel technology produced right here in Florida, but alas, it was not to be either. *Seems that they were tried in rental fleets in the Caribbean, and didn't perform up to expectations. *I was lucky enough to demo the Greenline Hybrid while I was in Germany. *In only 32 ft., there were many fresh, worth while innovations on this boat in addition to the VW diesel and electric slave drive. *It was quiet, smooth, and superb handler in a 3 ft. chop. *The contoured solar panels on the roof were beautifully done, but I wondered about replacement costs for such specially formed panels. *I talked to the builders of the Turanor Planet Solar at the Dusseldorf show and again just recently in Miami, and they insisted that while their panels were the most efficient they could buy at the time, they were over the counter items for anyone, and improved panels are already available, including those on the Greenline Hybrid.

Meanwhile, I dream of throwing my diesel away in favor of a sun powered drive one day, but like was said above, we're not there yet, and it's likely that the energy taxation of moving a boat through water will require something infinitely more efficient than the same thing needed to drive a car.

 

[Marin]

Hybrid boats

Moonstruck wrote:In automotve and street cars and the like the energy generated from braking can be somewhat stored in a flywheel or battery.* There are alot of variables in fuel mileage so it is hard to say just exactly how much fuel is saved by the hybrid engines.

An interesting factoid I have read in various articles and heard talked about by people in the car review/testing business like Jeremy Clarkson and so on is that hybrids are beneficial in terms of fuel use when driven in the city.* At low speeds, sitting in traffic, waiting at stoplights, the vehicle is running more in the electric mode than the gasoline mode.* But on the highway, the gas motor is running all the time because the battery power cannot maintain this kind of performance.* So when considering highway driving, there are other vehicles--- diesels and perhaps even some of the very efficient gasoline cars--- that actually get significantly better mileage than the hybrids.* The average mileage of a hybrid is high because its skewed by the low speed-no speed driving.* But if one does a lot of longer-distance, higher-speed driving (as we do), a hybrid is not the way to get the best mileage.

It was also interesting to hear the other day Alan Mulally, Ford CEO, say that in his opinon, electric cars like the Volt are not the answer.* He feels that there is a lot more efficiency that can be wrung out of gasoline and diesel engines that makes them more viable at least in the foreseeable future than the electrics.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 10th of January 2011 03:35:17 PM

 

[JD]

RE: Hybrid boats

Marin wrote:It was also interesting to hear the other day Alan Mulally, Ford CEO, say that in his opinon, electric cars like the Volt are not the answer.* He feels that there is a lot more efficiency that can be wrung out of gasoline and diesel engines that makes them more viable at least in the foreseeable future than the electrics.

-- Edited by Marin on Monday 10th of January 2011 03:35:17 PM

Interesting.* Here is a quote from Bill Ford (Great Grandson) just last week*at the when Ford unveiled it's Electric Focus:

"Bill Ford, the executive chairman of the Ford Motor Company, told ABC News in an exclusive interview that electric cars are now critical for the auto giant.

"To me, these are very much about signaling where this company is headed and, frankly, where this country ought to be headed," Ford said. "

 

[Moonstruck]

RE: Hybrid boats

JD wrote:


Marin wrote:It was also interesting to hear the other day Alan Mulally, Ford CEO, say that in his opinon, electric cars like the Volt are not the answer.* He feels that there is a lot more efficiency that can be wrung out of gasoline and diesel engines that makes them more viable at least in the foreseeable future than the electrics.

-- Edited by Marin on Monday 10th of January 2011 03:35:17 PM

Interesting.* Here is a quote from Bill Ford (Great Grandson) just last week*at the when Ford unveiled it's Electric Focus:

"Bill Ford, the executive chairman of the Ford Motor Company, told ABC News in an exclusive interview that electric cars are now critical for the auto giant.

"To me, these are very much about signaling where this company is headed and, frankly, where this country ought to be headed," Ford said. "

Marin's post is true.* The hybrid saves fuel by not idling at stop lights and through regerative braking.* On the highway those benefits are lost.

Electric cars are important to car manufacturers because of the CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) standards imposed on them.

Just today VW premiered their new Passat at the Detroit Auto Show.* Beautiful car offered with clean diesel power at 43 mpg.* Less complicated than a hybrid, and cheaper to build.* Built right here in my home town.* We need the business.* Please buy one.

*

 

[JD]

RE: Hybrid boats

Moonstruck wrote:Just today VW premiered their new Passat at the Detroit Auto Show.* Beautiful car offered with clean diesel power at 43 mpg.* Less complicated than a hybrid, and cheaper to build.* Built right here in my home town.* We need the business.* Please buy one.

We have a VW 2010*Jetta with the same engine.* We get 40 MPG consistently in the city and upper 40's on the Highway at 75-80 MPH.

One of the best cars I have ever owned and I have been through a few.* 30K+ miles and has had nothing done but three oil*and filter*changes.

*

 

[FF]

RE: Hybrid boats

Just today VW premiered their new Passat at the Detroit Auto Show. Beautiful car offered with clean diesel power at 43 mpg.


WOW the same performance of my 1980 Diesel rabbit !!

Wonder how well it does on tax free house fuel?

 

[Moonstruck]

RE: Hybrid boats

FF wrote:

Just today VW premiered their new Passat at the Detroit Auto Show. Beautiful car offered with clean diesel power at 43 mpg.


WOW the same performance of my 1980 Diesel rabbit !!

Wonder how well it does on tax free house fuel?

They offer that engine in Golf (read Rabbit) and Jetts.* Both cars get better mileage than the Passat because of their weight.* the Passat is a comfortable highway cruiser.* I understand that the new version will be competitive in price to the Camry.* Please buy one.* We need the business.* Same mileage taxed or untaxed.

*

 

[Codger2]

RE: Hybrid boats

Moonstruck wrote:Marin's post is true.* The hybrid saves fuel by not idling at stop lights and through regenerative braking.* On the highway those benefits are lost.

________________________________________________________________ Absolutely true! That's why I have one as I do very little driving on the "open road."
(Kinda like picking the right boat for the mission.)

*

 

[FF]

RE: Hybrid boats

Same mileage taxed or untaxed.



I don't think so, the Ultra low sulfur diesel is costing large trucks mileage losses.

House fuel is nice and dense and not polluted with harm lobby by products, "biodiesel".

 

[koliver]

RE: Hybrid boats

Sorry FF, but there is Bio in house fuel too. I just bought a load, (for my house) and it is touted by Columbia fuels as containing up to 5% Bio.

"Columbia Fuels BioHeat contains up to 5% biodiesel blended with our super clean, ultra-low-sulphur heating oil.".."The Canadian and Provincial Governments recently mandated biofuel use in fuel. Columbia Fuels customers have been enjoying the benefits of BioHeat for years now. "

$1.07/l + 12%HST -7% RBT. ? 7% rebate for using bio?

 

[C lectric]

RE: Hybrid boats

I suspect that , like it or not, we are going to get biodiesel in some form. At my last fill up for both the boat and the truck I realized that the floating and the grounded fuel stops were pumping biodiesel 5%. The only way I can avoid it would be to take a 6-8 hour run to the big city , not practical, and then I might get the same thing. Of course it has been the ULSD now for a couple years, no choice there either, anywhere. Actually there are choices, run the boat and truck or don't, but not good ones.

Luckily the truck was designed for ULSD but I'll see about the bio. The boat was done for neither.

At least we can all commiseryate

 

[markpierce]

RE: Hybrid boats

Hybrid boats seem silly.* On the other hand, a diesel-electric drive (diesel engine powering generator which provides electriciy*for the shaft motor)*sounds advantageous: won't need a darn transmission and possibly the genset could get you home if the main engine dies.

 

[Phil Fill]

RE: Hybrid boats

I read/herad the best for a hybrid is if the house demand is equal to propulsion demand.* Many large mega yachts are hybrid, diesel electric. **For a pleasure boat it would be hard to justify the cost vs. the savings.* What gets me is the Hybrid that the batteries are based on Lithium that has to be imported.* So instead of import oil we import raw material.* **


*
I been burning ULSD for several years and I find it burns cleaner and have not notice a loss of power, but I been trying to turn the diesel yearly and use additives to prolong the live and cetane.* I will void burning Bio as long as possible.* However the State of Washing ferry and transportations been burning Bio for years.* Again I think the bio has to be used/turned quickly.* Because ULSD and now Bio seem to have a short storage live I have do not fill the tanks more than what we can burn/use in one year.***


*
We have a hydraulic get home that is powered gen set.* The hydraulic variable PSI pump is also used to power the hydraulic bow thruster.* We have an AC cruise gen 5 KW off the DD 671 main so when out we dont run the gen set.* So we are set up the gen is back up for the main, and the main is back up for the gen.* Hydraulic is old technology and DC electric is new.**

 

[RickB]

RE: Hybrid boats

"Many large mega yachts are hybrid, diesel electric."

Where did that idea come from? How many?

 

[skipperdude]

RE: Hybrid boats

Were not*all subs during WWII diesel electric.

They would run on the surface under diesel to charge the batteries for submerged running*

Run silent run deep.

So kind of old technology.

SD

 

[Moonstruck]

RE: Hybrid boats

skipperdude wrote:



Were not*all subs during WWII diesel electric.

They would run on the surface under diesel to charge the batteries for submerged running*

Run silent run deep.

So kind of old technology.

SD

Of course the subs were diesel electric.* They ran under water on electric power.* Later the germans introduced a snorkel sub that would run on diesel submerged*without too much success.* The weren't what I would call hybrid power in the true sense.* I think the real diesel electric drives were on locomotives.* This was for getting extremely heavy loads moving.

However, I know absolutely nothing about MTUs.

*

 

[Marin]

Hybrid boats

skipperdude wrote:

*

Were not*all subs during WWII diesel electric.

So kind of old technology.

The system is certainly*not new, but I would not say the technology today*is old.

In addition to pre-nuclear*submarines some larger vessels have been diesel electric.* For example there was a class of Washington State Ferry--- the largest class I believe--- that were diesel-electric.* Their propulsion systems, as I understand it, were identical to those used in diesel-electric railroad locomotives at the time.* I think the diesel-electric ferries are all retired now--- they were operating when I moved here in 1979.

I don't know that they did this for efficiency so much as for better control.* Today's Washjington State ferries are direct diesel drive*but with variable pitch props and computer management to provide the degree of control needed in a ferry.

But diesel-electric*technology itself has advanced.* Diesel engines can be made more efficient and I'm sure that electric motor technology has moved far beyond what was being done in the 30s, 40s, and 50s.

However there must be some inefficiencies in diesel-electric--- perhaps it's a matter of scale.* Because I believe that modern container ships, bulk carriers, tankers, etc. are all diesel powered (if they aren't steam turbine-powered).* For example the largest container ship in the world is powered by the largest diesel engine in the world.

But given the cost of the components I would think that converting a recreational cruiser like a GB or whatever from direct diesel to diesel electric would not be cost-effective.* A person may have other reasons for wanting to do it but in terms of the cost of the fuel the conversion might save vs. the cost of the conversion, there are probably no savings to be realized.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of January 2011 04:25:46 PM

 

[Moonstruck]

RE: Hybrid boats

There have got to be some loss in diesel electrics.* Any time you convert from one form of energy to another there is some loss.* For a specific application for needed torque or smoothness I can see it working.* To me diesel electric is like the guy that came up with the single engine twin screw concept.* The worst of both worlds--------------two unprotected running gear and relying on a single engine.* Just didn't make sense to me.

Boats don't coast or brake so a flywheel would not work well for storing energy as would not a generator to run a charger.* Straight power seems the way to go on a boat.

 

[Moondance]

RE: Hybrid boats

Electric motors may be appropriate for ferry service, since they can be recharged easily and regularly.

electric ferry link Marseilles:

http://www.demotix.com/photo/241970/new-electric-ferry-boat-line-marseilles241970

Japan:

http://www.handyshippingguide.com/s...tep-forward-as-japanese-plan-ferry-launch_725

 

[JD]

RE: Hybrid boats

The Queen Mary 2 is Diesel Electric,

"As in most modern passenger ships, Queen Mary 2's propulsion machinery is electrically decoupled from her propellers and her propulsion arrangement can therefore be more accurately described as "CODAG electric" (by analogy with turbo-electric and diesel-electric). The diesel engines and gas turbines drive electrical generators, which provide the power to drive four 21,500*kW (28,800 hp) Alstom electrical motors located inside the podded propulsors (and thus entirely outside the vessel's hull).<sup class="reference">[11]</sup> Unusually, Queen Mary 2's gas turbines are not housed along with her diesels in the engine room deep in her hull, but instead reside in a soundproofed enclosure directly underneath the funnel. This arrangement allowed the vessel's designers to supply the oxygen hungry turbines with air intakes without having to run air ducts the entire height of the ship, which would have wasted valuable interior space.<sup class="reference">[11]"</sup>

 

[RickB]

RE: Hybrid boats

The first diesel electric ship was a Russian tanker built in 1903. It is not new technology.

Later ships used steam turbine driven generators to turn synchronous electric motors.

Diesel electric is not the same as what the car marketers call "hybrid" it is diesel electric and there is no battery in the system.

The old Washington State ferries used DC drive motors to allow very fine control of thrust over a wide range. They were designed at a period when medium size marine diesels were direct reversing and diesel electric drive eliminated the risk of starting problems that were common but not acceptable for ferry operations on short runs. The new ferries are AC motor powered for the same reasons of maneuverability and control. The AC system allows rapid changes in direction and full torque at any shaft rpm so it makes for rapid acceleration and reversal. It is far better than the old CP controls for ferry use.

Very few megayachts use diesel electric propulsion because the normal operating envelope doesn't lend itself to the advantages of the system. There are a few, but they are very large and are not in the normal charter yacht type of use.

Diesel electric is more efficient when a ship requires large amount of propulsion power when underway at high speeds and a large amount of electrical power the rest of the time. A cruise ship is a good example. Rather than have one very large engine, or even two plus a half dozen generators the ship can have half a dozen medium size diesel generator sets that when all are online provide full power to propulsion and the hotel load. When operating at part speed, engines can be shut down while still providing the large electrical load to the hotel services. This is where the efficiency gains are made, they only use the number of engines they need when they need them.

 

[Marin]

RE: Hybrid boats

RickB wrote:

The new ferries are AC motor powered for the same reasons of maneuverability and control. The AC system allows rapid changes in direction and full torque at any shaft rpm so it makes for rapid acceleration and reversal. It is far better than the old CP controls for ferry use.

When I moved here in 1979 a shipyard on the Duwamish Waterway had gottenn a contract to build six new mid-size ferries for the Washington State system.**IIRC*they were called the "Issaquah" class.* These ferries differed from the existing fleet in that they were direct diesel drive with "computer controlled" variable pitch propellers.* The shipyard had never done a project this big and the propulsion control system was a new technology for the ferries.* Needless to say the shipbuilding program was in trouble from day one and suffered from huge cost over-runs, delays, and on top of it all there were constant problems with the propulsion control system.

I recall that the theory behind the propulsion system on the Issaquah boats was the engines ran at a more or less constant speed and the thrust was governed by varying the pitch of the props.* The "ferry issue" was in the press a lot when the boats were being built and tested*and the woes of the direct diesel drive-variable pitch prop system was a favorite topic.

I have been assuming that the later boats that have been constructed used the same basic setup.* I did not realize that the newest ones are AC, which incidentally is also railroad locomotive technology as GE has been building AC-powered diesel-electric locomotives for many years now (as well as DC, you have your choice).

I have ridden on the Issaquah-class ferries a few times and I recall hearing the diesels hammering away at a pretty constant speed the whole time regardless of what the boat itself was doing.

*

 

[markpierce]

Hybrid boats

Diesel-electric locomotive at Lisbon, Portugal harbor.

Diesel-mechanical locomotive at St. Moritz, Switzerland.

-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 13th of January 2011 06:00:15 PM