Wagner steering cylinder replacement

[NWpilot]

My Tollycraft 30' sedan has a worn out steering cylinder. I personally couldn't figure out how to tear it down so I found a local hydraulic cylinder repair shop and left it for repair. It's not going well as all the shops are busy and these guys keep making excuses.

It's now June and my boat sits in it's berth so I went to find a new cylinder.

I emailed Wagner (it's a series 700 Wagner cylinder) and they replied that it was discontinued and they do not have a drop in replacement.

It's a simple cylinder with 1-1/4" bore and 7" stroke so I don't see any reason that I can't use most any cylinder on the market. Has anyone here ever replaced the wagner cylinder with another brand and if so, what one did you use.

Picture below.
Thanks

 

[Lou_tribal]

I have the exact same cylinder and got it rebuilt by an hydraulic shop nearby. They were more busy with their industrial customers but the guy made it between 2 jobs and I go it few days later. The guy show me how to do it myself, quite easy. Just have to unscrew cap at the extremity. Someone made a post about it on that forum.

I am wondering what kind of hydraulic fitting you have mounted on it (the brass ones)? I am looking at replacing mine.

If you want to replace it you may look on the side of Seastar/Teleflex, they have similar ones.

L

 

[STB]

I don't really know. Hydraulics aren't my thing. But, I'd think if you'd get whatever Seastar/Teleflex has that is an approximation of the same thing, you'd be fine. If you have two, and the replacement is more than a little different, you probably want to replace both to keep their movement about the same.

 

[STB]

Actually, I wonder how close a Seastar or Jastram or other cylinder would be.

Can you:

(a) Tell me how many full turns of the wheel it takes to go stop-to-stop on your steering (bled of air, e.g. assuming a hard stop and no skipping)

(b) Post a close up of the label on that cylinder?

I'm trying to figure out the volume, etc.

 

[NWpilot]

Answers to questions:

1. The previous mechanic installed tees on the cylinder ports and ran a line between the 2 sides of the cylinder for some reason. That simply pushes oil from one side to the other without moving the cylinder. I don't know what he was thinking. I removed the line. Fittings can be purchased at any hydraulic supply shop.

2. The head of the cylinder is screwed in (you can see the threads) and there is no way to grip it without destroying the threads. That's why I went no further.

3. Based on Wagner's legacy info the cylinder volume is 6.44 cu.in. and the helm pump is 1.95 cu.in resulting in a lock to lock of 3.3 turns.

4. The label has no model or serial number on it.

Added a couple of pictures below.

 

[NWpilot]

To clarify, the extra hose on each port is for the autopilot and the clear hose is the one I removed.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I understand the frustration. It looks like the chrome on the rod is in good shape so it should be simply replacing internal seals. It's a relatively simple job for a hydraulics shop with the right tools and access to the parts.

I had my ram, two helm pumps and the auto pilot pump rebuilt by Skagit Hydraulics in less than a week for $500 total. Maybe give them a call and consider shipping your ram to them?
https://www.skagithydraulics.com/

If you want to replace the ram reach out to SeaStar with the info you have on the ram, measurements from mount to rudder(s) etc. They should be able to provide you with a replacement.

 

[Lepke]

To grip the threads use a barrier between the threads and a tool like channel lock pliers. I use rubber gasket material.
The cylinder is easy to rebuild. Just be clean and lube the inside cylinder and seals with hydraulic oil. I did mine and lots of others.

 

[deblen]

Compare the Wagner/Jastram N series vs your 700. / Len
https://wagnerengineering.ca/


https://wagnerengineering.ca/category/hydraulic-cylinders/legacy/700_series_1-25

 

[NWpilot]

Len
I know, it looks basically the same. I don't see any reason I couldn't flip it over so the ports are on top.

I also don't understand why Wagner didn't recommend a replacement from their product line. I'm thinking I got a lazy salesman.

 

[STB]

What about an Ultraflex UCI-116I?

-- https://uflexusa.ultraflexgroup.com...b_manuale_uc69-116-168-215-293_versione_m.pdf
-- https://uflexusa.ultraflexgroup.com...g-systems/081082-1/556/inboard-cylinders.html
-- https://www.ebay.com/itm/183736904199?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28
-- https://www.wmjmarine.com/ufx-uc116i.html

 

[sean9c]

There are likely holes in the face of the end cap for a pin wrench if you want to remove it.
Easiest and likely least expensive replacement is the Seastar BA125-7ATM cylinder, it's around $500.
The mounting holes on any replacement cylinder are likely to be different from your Wagner so plan for that. You'll also want to make sure that spherical end has the correct hole size for the bolt that attaches it to your tiller arm

 

[deblen]

Len
I know, it looks basically the same. I don't see any reason I couldn't flip it over so the ports are on top.

I also don't understand why Wagner didn't recommend a replacement from their product line. I'm thinking I got a lazy salesman.

You are correct in assuming "any balanced(piston rod goes right thru & out the other end) cylinder" will work.
If you replace with a 1 1/4 dia.x 7" stroke and same dia. piston rod (same displacement) your turns will remain the same. If you go to larger disp. cyl.,your turns go up & effort reqd will go down andvs/vs for smaller disp.
Position of ports/fittings do not matter.

There is a used 700 cyl on ebay but any brand will do.

Bit pricey for used but...https://www.ebay.com/itm/254315311949?epid=28026943539&hash=item3b365fb34d:g:HkwAAOSwW7ldQI6V

Quick way of bleeding the system-use the autopilot to run the ram HO-HO-HO several times while adding helm oil as reqd. Saves bleeding.
Cheers/Len

 

[Lepke]

If you don't bleed the ram, you get an air pocket that compresses and may not move the rudder the full range. I have Wagner steering and not bleeding leaves 5-10° of hard over rudder angle not used.

 

[NWpilot]

Well, I looked at everyone's comments and suggestions and ended up ordering an Ultraflex UCI 116-I cylinder from WMJ Marine.
I also called and told the shop to forget about working on my old cylinder, since they hadn't started on it yet.
Thanks to everyone for confirming that there are no hidden perils in replacing a cylinder with one of the same capacity.

Chas

 

[SP3]

Bleeding question

Hey All,

I recently had my Wagner cylinder rebuilt, it is like 35 years old, so no surprise it was leaking. Puget sound hydraulics did the rebuild and pressure tested it.

I put it in, but while spinning in new fluid both wheels have locked up and the cylinder does not move. The refill is at the top helm so I am assuming it was bleeding out the air as I was adding fluid.

This is my first time working on this system and hopefully if the ram goes another 30 years my last.

I am assuming there is a step I need to do to unfreeze the system. Any ideas?