Advice on Refit

[Mark P]

So the question here is: if you purchased a boat that is approx 15-18 years old, single diesel engine, single head, separate shower, with genny, HVAC, bow & stern thrusters, single helm, about 36ft, with an all electric galley, 8-10 year old electronics, that surveys reasonably well for a boat with this marine age, and you chose to do a refit, how would you go about doing it?

Would you do interior first, last? Engine work first, last? When to paint etc.? I'd like to hear the good, the bad and the ugly of refitting a boat from those who have experience and a process to approach such work. Our plan if we do it is to have professionals do it.

All thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[kchace]

Unless the boat is going to be a "dock queen" I would do anything mechanical and/or structural first. No sense in having new paint or up to date electronics if you can't use the boat reliably. After all the mechanicals are working as they should, next on my list would probably be electronics, then cosmetics.


Ken

 

[RonR]

I have not done a complete refit, so let us get that out of the way. However, I think you need to define what your end goal, budgets, and timelines are. If the systems are old and tired, that is one thing. If you are planning to keep the boat for 10+ years and have some major sea time planned it is another. If you just like to tinker, it is in any order you like. If I were to do a complete refit, I would start with the engine and double check the tanks (Fuel/Fresh/Black). Removal of them will damage some interior and depending what all needs to come out you may end up with a few stains and chips in the deck/paint. I would then move to plumbing and I would do that work myself, electrical, then paint and interior last. I like to try to do my own work when I can. I would pull the boat, strip the interior, strip engine accessories, have the pro’s pull the engine, and I would rebuild it. Electrical work is over my head for a reliable system from scratch, so I would have pro’s do that as well. Depending on the quality of paint job you are wanting will determine if your skills are up to the task. I am not bad with interior so I would do that work on my own.

 

[Comodave]

A 15 years old boat probably won’t need painting if it has been taken care of at all. We are doing/have done a pretty big refit on our current boat. The first thing I did was the electronics since we had a 1400 mile cruise to get it home. Then I did things to stop the bleeding, leaking windows, etc. as time went on I did projects as they struck my fancy. We have painted the whole boat ourselves except spraying the hull, I hired someone to spray it after I had done all the prep work. I have replaced the main electrical panel, rewired much of the boat, replaced 11 portholes, added a flybridge hardtop, new enclosures on bridge and sundeck, reupholstered cushions, reconditioned the props, pulled the port engine and refurbished that side of the engine room, doing the starboard engine and refurb that side this winter, this winter will replace the house bank with Lithium batteries and rewire all associated connections. It is a lot of work and we have done it all ourselves except spray the hull and recondition the props. Good luck.

 

[DavidM]

" Our plan if we do it is to have professionals do it."

In that case you would probably be better off selling it and buying a newer boat. You will probably come out better financially that way and also avoid all of the hassles of refitting.

Only if you were totally in love with this boat and plan to keep it for a long period would I "pay professionals" to do the work.

The basic problem is that boats are built new with $10/hr labor but US refits are done with $100/hr labor.

David

 

[Mark P]

Any advice on the underwater items: Through hulls? Rudder mounts? Seacocks, Thrusters, drive shaft seals - is it best to tackle these "while she's on blocks" for painting etc? My thinking is yes, I'd hate to go back and start fixing these items one at a time after putting paint on etc.

 

[Comodave]

" Our plan if we do it is to have professionals do it."

In that case you would probably be better off selling it and buying a newer boat. You will probably come out better financially that way and also avoid all of the hassles of refitting.

Only if you were totally in love with this boat and plan to keep it for a long period would I "pay professionals" to do the work.

The basic problem is that boats are built new with $10/hr labor but US refits are done with $100/hr labor.

David

+1. That is why we do almost all of our work. I only hire work that is highly skilled, like a good paint sprayer. Or rebuilding the props, highly skilled and needs specialized equipment.

 

[Comodave]

Any advice on the underwater items: Through hulls? Rudder mounts? Seacocks, Thrusters, drive shaft seals - is it best to tackle these "while she's on blocks" for painting etc? My thinking is yes, I'd hate to go back and start fixing these items one at a time after putting paint on etc.

A 15 year old boat should not need through hulls replaced, maybe serviced. Any other underwater work should be done while hauled out, but that would depend on if it was needed or not. Depending on inspection.

 

[Mark P]

David M - good advice. I understand it will cost a bunch to do this and not financially worth it - I don't expect to get any of it back - if the boat is worth the same after I am done with it, I am ok with that. What we are trying to do is set a baseline for functionality and usability.

What we are trying to avoid is having a boat where we don't really know "when something is likely to break" - so we are thinking like this: we want to be able to use the boat without "chasing maintenance and breakdowns" while trying to enjoy it. I am not afraid of maintenance and its expense, but want to plan it best we can.

If I replace or rebuild most of the systems on a boat, I hope to end up with a boat that is reasonably reliable. The place we really don't want to end up is paying for "newer" boat in terms of marine age (all systems working at survey), and then (by way of example) head out to Cumberland Island to anchor out for a week and have the salon air conditioner fail, and two weeks after that on the next trip, the genny won't start, and the month after that, the windlass won't drop the anchor. By setting a baseline and performing lots of maintenance on what we know has been replaced/rebuilt, I am hoping to have a reliable boat. Am I nuts?

 

[Mark P]

Comodave - good thoughts, but given the safety issue with through hulls, and reading what happened to the Californian post (I think the exhaust elbow failed) on TF last month, I am thinking anything that can cause a boat to take on water, or prevent water ingress, gets replaced.

 

[rslifkin]

Some items are worth preemptive replacement, but most underwater hardware can be inspected and assessed as far as whether it still has good life left or if it's close to the end. Plenty of hardware goes far longer than 15 years and still checks out fine.

 

[mvweebles]

As a guy who is almost done with a 1-1/2 year refit, let me make sure we are defining terms. To me, "Refit" means major system and component swap-out and/or renewal. It is, without a doubt, the worst possible financial decision imaginable. It's a labor of love akin to having a trusted dog who needs an expensive surgery. It's not the money. Woof.

I'm not sure what I'd call the update/maintenance the OP is talking about, but not really a refit - more of a refresh with a heavy dose of preventative maintenance. For example, when I took my Willard 36 500nms south from San Francisco to Ensenada for the refit, I hadn't run the boat in years. So I had a trusted mechanic spend about 2-weeks going through every possible system and hose. New pumps, new hoses, replaced the dual Racor as the valve had frozen, head gasket, and a bunch of other stuff. It wasn't cheap, but it was a refresh to the engine that was needed in order to spend 3-days underway.

But to your question - if doing a full refit, start on the inside (engine room) and work outwards. As others have said, makes no sense to paint the hull and deck first, then have workmen tread all over.

If this is a relatively new-to-you boat and you're wondering how to make it as reliable as possible by spending some dough on preventative maintenance, I'd suggestion something along the lines of:

- Replace hoses and hose clamps (house systems and engine)
- Inspect thru-hulls
- Rebuild heads
- Replace all pumps (engine and house-systems including macerator pump if so equipped), save old ones for spares
- Replace shaft packing
- Replace cutless bearing
- Inspect batteries - if lead-acid and older than 3-years, budget for your next set
- Refrigeration - no telling how long this will last. If 15-years old, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes within a year or two, but who knows - could go another 10-years.
- Nav/Electronics - 10-years old is starting to be a bit old at this point. Decide whether you don't care (they will work for a long time) or budget for replacement over next few years.
- Autopilot. Not sure about this - pumps and such last a long time. I'd leave it alone until it breaks (though I personally installed a back-up pump).
- Air Conditioning. Similar to refrigeration. Could last 20-years. Could last 5 years. Good news is these are pretty easy to replace and they are not incredibly expensive.
- Upholstery - cushions and such. Obviously not a safety issue, but does require some budgeting.

Best success -

Peter

 

[DavidM]

Mark:

I get what you are saying: proactively replace or overhaul critical systems so you won't be caught short.

I guess that makes sense for most systems, like the A/C. Any A/C over fifteen years old has a finite life left in it. It may fail next year or ten years from now, but the odds are it will fail in that time frame.

Others like electronic systems "can" benefit from new and upgraded technology. But be careful about gimmicks and focus on the upgrades that you will really use. I made fun of a guy here who wanted his autopilot to control his bow thruster. Well ok if you were going to spend hours at 3 kts and needed the steering control, but most of us don't operate that way. (My apologies to the guy).

Many of these systems if you are replacing with new, can be installed fairly inexpensively. I can swap out an inverter/charger in 30 minutes for example.

But be careful about the engine. Most trawler engines can go 50 years with only preventative maintenance. The generator a bit less so, but don't replace a perfectly good generator unnecessarily.

It is the cosmetic stuff that is really expensive to upgrade as it is 90% expensive labor.

David

 

[AusCan]

I agree with others here. Safety items first which keep your boat afloat.
Cosmetic things last, such as carpet and upholstery, as it tends to get a bit of wear and tear during the refit process.

 

[boatpoker]

First - Do the stuff that keeps her floating.
Second - Do the stuff that keeps her running

If you have any money left after #1 and 2 you can worry about matching colour upholstery.

 

[O C Diver]

Lots of good advice from everyone.

I chose to do it all at once. Get it done and get on with cruising.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s32/my-short-haul-refit-19105.html

In all honesty, I continue to find projects and upgrades that I want to do. So it's never really over if this is the last big boat.

Ted

 

[OldDan1943]

Bring your check book and about $100,000
If you have any money left over, send it to me, please.

Engine first. Generator next.
A/C? If they work now, enjoy. You can update as they fail.
If the the nav works, good. If not, you may be looking at about $30-40K.
Painting is way down the list of things to do.

 

[Mark P]

Ted, great work on your refit, and thanks for posting! Once I know where kid is going to college, I will start going after boats. Once we get the boat, with us being retired, a kid in college, and a boat refit underway, that will be a strain on cash for sure.

 

[ranger58sb]

So the question here is: if you purchased a boat that is approx 15-18 years old, single diesel engine, single head, separate shower, with genny, HVAC, bow & stern thrusters, single helm, about 36ft, with an all electric galley, 8-10 year old electronics, that surveys reasonably well for a boat with this marine age, and you chose to do a refit, how would you go about doing it?

Would you do interior first, last? Engine work first, last? When to paint etc.? I'd like to hear the good, the bad and the ugly of refitting a boat from those who have experience and a process to approach such work. Our plan if we do it is to have professionals do it.

Float stuff first. Leak stuff second. Engines (including genset) and associated hardware and running gear third.

Interior and electronics... whenever, but not without at least a year's worth of use to understand better what the goal might be.

8-10 year old electronics probably work. Maybe not all the most recent bells, whistles, and hooters... but those are just gravy anyway.

-Chris

 

[OldDan1943]

Float stuff first. Leak stuff second. Engines (including genset) and associated hardware and running gear third.

Interior and electronics... whenever, but not without at least a year's worth of use to understand better what the goal might be.

8-10 year old electronics probably work. Maybe not all the most recent bells, whistles, and hooters... but those are just gravy anyway.

-Chris

Ah yes, the nav electronics you install today will be out dated next week, if you are lucky. If not lucky, outdated the day after they completed your install.

 

[Comodave]

We put in all new electronics in September 2015 when we bought the boat. And before we even brought it home the next April the electronics were outdated.

 

[ranger58sb]

Float stuff first. Leak stuff second. Engines (including genset) and associated hardware and running gear third.

I forgot two steps.

1) Early on, before engine work, CLEAN THE BOAT. Detail it, inside and out, including (especially) the engine room.

2) Also before engine work, solve the sanitation system, whatever it takes. If it works and there's no odor, fine. If there's any little thing slightly wrong, make it right. That could mean only a new hose clamp here or there, or maybe new hoses, perhaps even new toilets or holding tanks... whatever. No matter, get it perfect.

-Chris

 

[BroadCove]

You could literally be talking about my boat - 36' Halvorsen that I purchased in January. Like yours, my survey showed nothing major, so I set about working on the minor issues (e.g., surveyor literally noted the Weems & Plath clock wasn't working, so I put a AA battery in it) and slightly less minor but still optional (functional propane tank but aged beyond ABYC, so I replaced it).

Then there were a couple of other things, such as the recommendation to install a fire suppression port (not done yet) and to completely redo the propane because it is installed to "no known standard" which is the case on nearly all eastern builds of that era (which I'm not going to do as it isn't really doable in any cost efficient way).

Then there are the things I want to do - install a generator (I don't have one) and upgrade the electronics. But I didn't do either right away as I wanted to spend time on the boat first. And I'm now glad I didn't spend $30-40k on those two items, as I've decided to buy a bigger boat!

I guess I'm saying I'm not sure a refit is the way to go. You indicated you are interested in replacing things near failure before they fail (I'm paraphrasing here). Older parts well within their lifespan are no more likely to fail than a new part; for example, on my boat, the engine experienced a catastrophic failure with less than 250 hours that resulted in Cummins replacing the block, and the failure was due to a faulty part. (Happened prior to my ownership.)

I would fix the items on the survey that you think need to be addressed, perform all due services (and perhaps advance a service if you think it may not have been done), and use the boat!

 

[Bryant]

Refit

So the question here is: if you purchased a boat that is approx 15-18 years old, single diesel engine, single head, separate shower, with genny, HVAC, bow & stern thrusters, single helm, about 36ft, with an all electric galley, 8-10 year old electronics, that surveys reasonably well for a boat with this marine age, and you chose to do a refit, how would you go about doing it?

Would you do interior first, last? Engine work first, last? When to paint etc.? I'd like to hear the good, the bad and the ugly of refitting a boat from those who have experience and a process to approach such work. Our plan if we do it is to have professionals do it.

All thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

Where do you live? What is your access to qualified, skilled workers? Boatyards? When you say "refit" are you talking about a completely new boat from the engines to the flying bridge canvas with only the hull as original or are you talking about fixing what is wrong and upgrading a few things? A true complete refit will probably cost as much as you paid for the boat if not more, the boat will be out of commission for a long time and then you'll have to fix individual issues as they arise (which they will). I've put well over $30k into refitting my boat and I haven't touched the engine, transmission or generator. I've spent about 50% on cosmetics and improvements and 50% on replacement of worn out systems and parts. While there is a certain amount of "fun" and pride in taking an older boat and re creating it with your vision, if I had it to do all over again, I"d spend the extra cash, and buy a newer boat that had already been refit at the expense and headaches of former owners. I can tell you this: With very rare exception, there is no such thing as a really good deal on a boat. Either you are going to buy a dog cheaply and then go broke with parts, labor, yard costs etc not to mention time not boating while on the hard or you are going to make a much more substantial investment up front and reap the benefits of other's money and labors. It's just a matter of which road you want to take. In the end, you'll probably have about the same amount of money in an older boat that's been refit and a newer boat that's in better shape to begin with. IMHO.

 

[Eddie W]

I am 7 months into a 6 month refit, that will probably take me 14 months to complete. I went into this eyes wide open (wallet too). Since I will be spending a lot of time on the boat as I refit (boat is in different state than I live in) I elected to start on the interior. You can replace/replace items, mechanical, electrical and cosmetic that are staring you in the face as you remove and replace interior pieces. From my experience, it has worked out well for me. Plus I wanted the major mechanical & electrical items replaced or repaired last, before I start our next adventure on the Loop.

 

[Snapdragon III]

Find a boat that someone else has already done a refit on, and is selling for pennies on the dollar compared to what it would cost to do it yourself.

 

[Eddie W]

Find a boat that someone else has already done a refit on, and is selling for pennies on the dollar compared to what it would cost to do it yourself.

Good, solid advice. Identical to auto restoration. You will never get out what you put into it, but for me the labor of love and knowledge that I gained with every auto restoration (21) was worth every dollar I lost and this will be my third boat that I have restored. Working on cars in the garage after a very stressful day in the office was very therapeutic for me and working on this boat after I retired is the hardest but most happy work I have taken on in my adult life.

 

[Mark P]

So to reply to some of the questions in earlier posts, we are in the Hilton Head area, good yards around that I've heard are good, and I am starting to talk with a couple of them.

So in terms of the refit question, I am thinking the following: (a) go over engine removing all peripherals and replacing them, including exhaust; (b) same with genny; (c) clean fuel tanks, water tanks, replace lines, Racors etc.; (d) new HVAC units; (e) new electronics - AIS, Radar, Charts, engine monitoring systems, cameras etc: (f) rebuild or replace both thrusters; (g) rebuild or replace windlass; (h) Rebuild transmission and drive shaft; (i) Replace through hulls; (j) new prop, keep old one as spare after it gets redone. Then we'll live with the other stuff, like interior, fridge, toilet, etc. See what breaks and go from there.

I did this in 1995 with a car, and it worked out real well. Basically replaced or rebuilt everything in engine except crank (could not find a Cobra 428 crank), C-6 tranny, drive shaft, rear end, 31 spline axles, brakes, suspension, steering, ball joints, idler arms, radiator, alternator and ended up with a really nice running car. Bought it for $15K, spent probably $20K in the first year on rebuild and then another probably $10K over 25 years, and sold it last year for $23K. If my boat turns out this way financially, I am ok with that. Sounds crazy, but you only go around once.

 

[mvweebles]

I am thinking the following: (a) go over engine removing all peripherals and replacing them, including exhaust; (b) same with genny; (c) clean fuel tanks, water tanks, replace lines, Racors etc.; (d) new HVAC units; (e) new electronics - AIS, Radar, Charts, engine monitoring systems, cameras etc: (f) rebuild or replace both thrusters; (g) rebuild or replace windlass; (h) Rebuild transmission and drive shaft; (i) Replace through hulls; (j) new prop, keep old one as spare after it gets redone. Then we'll live with the other stuff, like interior, fridge, toilet, etc. See what breaks and go from there.

This is a good list. There are a couple items I would inspect and not proactively repair/replace - Prop(s), Windlass and Thruster(s) are on that list. Additions to the 'proactive' list might be head; and electrical system evaluation/upgrade to ensure I can produce and store adequate amount of energy - part of which is deciding how much battery storage you need for the type of cruising you anticipate.

BTW - I had this work done by a reputable mechanic on my single Perkins 4.236 75hp diesel which is pretty inexpensive to source parts for. By the time it was done, it was around $8k. Valve on my my dual Racor 500 was seized which was $800 alone. But it sounds like you have a good handle on the work involved from your car resto work.

Good luck

 

[ktdtx]

Just passing on what I thought was good advice given to me.
Fix the safety issues
Do all deferred maintenance and remedy any issues which might make the boat other than a reliable performer.


Then, use the boat for a year and you will find that some things which were top on your list to do will fall to the bottom and others will rise in priority.