insurance - at what point is a boat too big?

[skyhawk]

At what point is a boat too big for a new cruiser to get insurance?

I was watching a youtube video...a family looking for boats to do the great american loop. They looked at a bigger one...62ft I believe it was.... and they mentioned maybe needing to hire a captain for a boat this big.
I am only "ass-u-ming" that this is insurance related.....

So this set me to wondering....
....and I realize there's probably a lot of "it depends..." in this.....
For a person with little to no big boat experience, is there a length or tonnage limit for insurers?

This is just a general question to apply to anyone.....
but for my perspective.... I'm not really intimidated at all by the thought of operating most any "couple sized" cruising trawlers.... although for most boats I'd want time with an experienced captain for shakedown training on systems and handling.... but I would think that would be only for a few days...or even a week or so maybe to go through all the systems, etc..... but not a very long term situation
I have grown up around boats my whole life and I'm a very good small boat handler but my experience has almost all been with smaller outboard powered boats. Experience on only one inboard powered boat, and it was a small one....

 

[guy with a boat]

I just had a conversation about this with a boat insurance agent. The answer changes and varies by carrier and market conditions, but the suggestion was that anything over a 10ft jump in boat size beyond your experience level will likely bring the requirement to hire a captain. The particulars can be argued but that gets you in the ballpark.

 

[skyhawk]

hire a captain for how long? in what capacity?

anyway, thanks... seems like a reasonable rule of thumb....but nuanced.

So if I tell them I helmed a boat that was 180 ft once, does that count?
what if the boater has never owned a boat?
or if the largest owned was a 14ft skiff?

My guess would be a rule like that probably starts at something on the order of thirty something feet in length.....maybe 40ft

I've spent a lot of time on the water, and I've helmed a couple things >70ft but not enough to count for anything.... My experience actually operating boats has all be <30ft. Where does that leave me if buying say something in the 40 to 63ft range?...hire a captain to chauffeur me around till I'm qualified for a captain's license of my own? That can't be right.....

 

[SteveK]

I still recall a new boater buying a 40+ CB powerboat. First time boat owner. No problem being pushed off the purchase dock, no problem driving from A to B.
Now comes the landing into the assigned berth for the first time docking a boat.



HELP! Fortunately the docks were buzzing with people and the word went round. Human fenders made ready to hand over hand guide the vessel into the slip. I was not around when it left the dock, but he became good at handling the boat and could afford to pay for damages.

It was as easy as learning to fly a Cessna and getting a job to fly a cargo plane.

 

[GFC]

I would bet they want you to hire a captain and keep him around until you can satisfy him that you do know how to handle the boat. That depends on you.
Could be a week, a month, two months, etc.

I had to do that when I moved from a 33' to the 56'. My check ride was with the owner of the boat yard that recommissioned the 56'er after I had her shipped from Detroit to Portland. My check ride lasted about an hour and it was only that short because I had many years experience handling the 33' and also had chartered a 45' for a week.

 

[Fernweh]

So if I tell them I helmed a boat that was 180 ft once, does that count?
what if the boater has never owned a boat?
or if the largest owned was a 14ft skiff?

As @guy_with_a_boat mentioned, a 10 ft. jump from your previous boat size is about the standard, from what I've recently been told. We're in the market for a new boat, so we've been talking with our insurance broker and that's what we've been told.

One thing regarding your above comment: It doesn't matter how big of a boat you've operated; I am a retired Navy Surface Warfare Officer and Navy qualified offshore sailing skipper, so I've operated some big ships! It's about the size of the boats you've owned. Our insurance broker used to deliver 40+ foot catamarans and then train the new owners how to operate the vessels. But, he's only ever owned 20~ish ft boats. So he can only get insurance for a 30~ish footer.

Regards,
Fern

 

[Comodave]

Boat/US told me if I went more than 15’ bigger I would have to have a captain do some training. But now the wife is trying to convince me to go smaller...

 

[SteveK]

Boat/US told me if I went more than 15’ bigger I would have to have a captain do some training. But now the wife is trying to convince me to go smaller...

Dave, I thought you explained why the wife wants you to go smaller. The big boat is blocking the view from the house.

 

[STB]

When I bought my 1st boat, a 42' Californian LRC, I started calling around for insurance. When I told them "no experience at all", they mostly found ways of telling me no. BoatUS/GEICO told me, "That doesn't fit our risk profile." My boat broker told me to cite boats I'd been aboard and my sea trial and claim 2+ years experience with that size.

I ended up getting insurance with State Farm, which was actually less expensive and better in many ways than coverage others had from other providers, largely due to the way it dovetailed with other policies and my years of history with them. But, of course, if there is ever a claim, all they will do is eventually send an adjuster and write a check. They don't have the machinery for broader support of marine clients others do.

I tried hiring captains to teach me, but they, well, were either a mess or not teachers. Eventually I learned by experience -- and with the generous help of neighbors.

My boat got hit in the slip a few weeks ago by a licensed captain running charters out of the recreational marina (picks up and drops off at a local public dock). He forgot to untie a spring line before departing hot on the throttle. It happens. Even to those with experience. Wish it didn't. But, people are human.

I guess what I'm saying is to call around before buying a boat, but, for a reasonable 1st boat.....someone will insure you. I suspect.

 

[skyhawk]

so is the general idea that a hired captain will sign something for the insurance company after a time. (whatever it takes....after a commissioning cruise, or a week or so of lessons, or a month, or...)
or that if you can't find insurance, that you get it insured for owning it with a professional crew...then after a time of ownership get it re-insured based on your ownership history of the boat?

 

[Comodave]

Dave, I thought you explained why the wife wants you to go smaller. The big boat is blocking the view from the house.

No, she wants less work on the boat. My mom is the one that likes it when the boat isn’t at the dock. She sits at the dining room table and the boat blocks her view of the river and boats going up and down. But at 101 I guess she should get what she wants...

 

[MYTraveler]

The answer changes and varies by carrier and market conditions, but the suggestion was that anything over a 10ft jump in boat size beyond your experience level will likely bring the requirement to hire a captain.

In my experience over numerous boats, including at least 2 with 10'+ jumps, an increase in size will trigger scrutiny of the insured's experience, but not necessarily the requirement to hire a captain. But, insuring a boat for $500K + will also draw scrutiny. In my case, with the first jump in size, my application brought questions about my experience, and my answer brought more questions. In the end, no captain required. With my current boat, different insurer, which is >10' LOA bigger than last boat, and over 4x the insured value, I had a similar experience -- lots of questions about my prior experience, and a soft proposal that I get checked out by one of their approved captains (at their expense), but partially due to logistics (boat was being delivered off shore then going straight to Mexico), they were persuaded that no captain and no check out was necessary. And, I am happy to report, no claims ever.

Similarly, a buddy bought a new 38' fishing boat as his first boat. That drew lots of scrutiny, but he was also not required to hire a captain. It may have helped that he was using my broker and could truthfully report that he had spent many hours at the helm of my boat during long passages.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

so is the general idea that a hired captain will sign something for the insurance company after a time. (whatever it takes....after a commissioning cruise, or a week or so of lessons, or a month, or...)
or that if you can't find insurance, that you get it insured for owning it with a professional crew...then after a time of ownership get it re-insured based on your ownership history of the boat?

My experience is not personal (yet) but through friends and acquaintances - yes to the first, there is usually a checkout sheet of sorts with different areas of training listed and the training captain signs off on it when they are comfortable putting their name on the line.

As to the second part, no, short of a super yacht. Though if you are in a hurry to voyage, then the training captain and maybe mate become your professional crew as you travel and learn as you go, until insurance is satisfied. My understanding is this happens semi-often.

I’ll be having an insurance conversation this week about my personal situation, which like others is a decent boating resume for work vessels of all sorts (though not warship-sized lol) but the longest I’ve ever owned is under 30 feet. I’m looking at something fairly long and heavy so I’m sure the insurance-driven training requirements will be interesting, and will be a line item in our budget. You should call one of the independent insurance brokers others have recommended in other threads here and talk to them about hypotheticals (and then reward them with your business when the time comes.)

 

[Rufus]

I was just watching a 28' twin Sea Ray type express boat trying to get into his cross-wind slip. Wind speed has been fairly high. The boat was like an air hocky puck. The poor guy (and wife with boat hook) struggled mightily. No question at all that a larger, heavier boat would have been far, far easier to dock. I'd tell the insurance company what they want to hear and take my chances. If you feel the need to have someone with experience on board for the first hour or two, do so....but not because someone sitting at a desk says you have to. Practice during the week when noone is around.
Our first ever boat was the current 44. I told the insurer I'd been in the Coast Guard (not that it was an aviator), and had spent time at the helm of a large cutter (not that it was for about ten minutes). Or just go with liability if that works to get a slip in a marina.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

On the other hand, I would embrace professional training if it is eventually required of you, especially if you’ve never benefitted from it. No use grousing about it. I continue to learn something new from ‘most everyone I boat with, sometimes from negative examples but mostly from good ones.

My two decades history as a small boat instructor might have something to do with this opinion

 

[SteveK]

Insurance appears to insure the primary owner/operator more so than the actual boat.

Suppose #1. I went away from the helm and my partner/or guest with basic steering knowledge finds that elusive deadhead, is the boat covered or is there small print that expects the owner/primary operator be in charge at all times away from the dock.

Suppose #2. My friend cannot get insurance so we put the boat in my name as owner for insurance purposes. would this be considered a charter operation, probably.

 

[skyhawk]

My thoughts exactly rufus!

On the other hand, I would embrace professional training if it is eventually required of you, especially if you’ve never benefited from it. No use grousing about it. I continue to learn something new from ‘most everyone I boat with, sometimes from negative examples but mostly from good ones.

My two decades history as a small boat instructor might have something to do with this opinion

I personally would embrace training if needed. I kinda think I would need a good few days anyway.....but like rufus said, I too am none too excited about some extremely big and expensive hurdle to jump through just to check a box if it's not truly necessary. Regardless, I started this thread just to find out generally what is typically required....not to complain so much, but to plan and budget for it.

 

[MYTraveler]

Insurance appears to insure the primary owner/operator more so than the actual boat.

Suppose #1. I went away from the helm and my partner/or guest with basic steering knowledge finds that elusive deadhead, is the boat covered or is there small print that expects the owner/primary operator be in charge at all times away from the dock.

Suppose #2. My friend cannot get insurance so we put the boat in my name as owner for insurance purposes. would this be considered a charter operation, probably.

I suspect the answer to #1 will depend on the language of the policy in question, but my policy, for example, provides coverage. Its only limitation is that I, or a licensed captain pre-approved by the insurance company, must be the master.

As to #2, if it comes out that you don't have an insurable interest (because you are only nominally the owner), you won't have coverage. At that point, the purpose of the subterfuge will become clear and it's insurance fraud.

 

[BandB]

At what point is a boat too big for a new cruiser to get insurance?

I was watching a youtube video...a family looking for boats to do the great american loop. They looked at a bigger one...62ft I believe it was.... and they mentioned maybe needing to hire a captain for a boat this big.
I am only "ass-u-ming" that this is insurance related.....

So this set me to wondering....
....and I realize there's probably a lot of "it depends..." in this.....
For a person with little to no big boat experience, is there a length or tonnage limit for insurers?

This is just a general question to apply to anyone.....
but for my perspective.... I'm not really intimidated at all by the thought of operating most any "couple sized" cruising trawlers.... although for most boats I'd want time with an experienced captain for shakedown training on systems and handling.... but I would think that would be only for a few days...or even a week or so maybe to go through all the systems, etc..... but not a very long term situation
I have grown up around boats my whole life and I'm a very good small boat handler but my experience has almost all been with smaller outboard powered boats. Experience on only one inboard powered boat, and it was a small one....

The very fact you're not at all intimidated and the views you've expressed in this thread give me all the more comfort in the need for the insurers to require training or the use of a captain for a while. Being around boats your whole live if not around the type and size on the waters you're talking about means little. Thinking a few days, talking about a captain as a chauffeur concerns me although not nearly as much as those talking about ways to circumvent insurers which is the sure way to pay for insurance but have none.

I had 30 years of small boat experience, enough time to qualify for a captain's license, but all was on 30' and under and I was an excellent operator as was my wife with her 11 years. The amount I had to learn was huge. I'd strongly encourage you to approach this as a learning experience and the insurer as your partner, as the one protecting you.

Most of the time it's 10'-15' depending on sizes. Generally the requirement is a licensed captain for a certain period or until they're willing to sign they feel you are capable. There are many excellent teaching captains available. Look at it as the opportunity to gain knowledge and experience.

Boating isn't about being able to dock safely although that's what many look at. It's about handling all situations, using all the equipment on board a larger boat, dealing with situations that arise. You go to areas that are new, into waters further off shore, you face new conditions. I've known people to use a captain for six months and others to be deemed ready to move on in 6 to 10 days of full time learning. If, with your background as it is, you were looking at a 40' boat, I'd see 6 to 10 days as adequate, but if it was a 60' boat, I'd definitely go for extensive boating over 6 months.

You spend a few days with captains who have done this for 20 years and really try to learn and you'll be amazed at how much they know that you can learn. It will be an amazing experience. The few hundred dollars a day will be the best expenditure of your life. From the insurer's standpoint, I can tell you that they know it will save them some "new driver's" payouts. Look at what auto insurers charge for those under 25 years old. You know a lot less than you seem to believe and have a lot more to learn than you realize. We were all there one time. Please look at this as a means to assist you in safely transitioning. It's not just your property, but it's your life.

We're both licensed captains, but the on the water training we received was incredible and I'm so thankful for it.

I'll give you an analogy. Someone has driven cars all their life. What do you think about giving them the keys to a tractor trailer and saying go drive? I don't worry about the damage to the trailer the first time they try backing it into a tight space, but I worry about the first time they face a situation on the road they aren't prepared for and lives are at stake with their handling of it.

 

[garychurch]

I went from a 27’ SeaRay I/O to a 64’ Grand Banks MY. The insurance company required me to have a qualified approved (by them) for a minimum of 100 hours and submit a letter from the Captain I was now qualified to handle the boat as an owner/operator.

Insurance runs from 1% to 2% of the boat’s value per year. Depending on coverage and assessed risk. For the Grand Banks that ran from $8,000 (US) to $11,000 (Caribbean) to $19,000 (US but within the hurricane belt).

 

[skyhawk]

I went from a 27’ SeaRay I/O to a 64’ Grand Banks MY. The insurance company required me to have a qualified approved (by them) for a minimum of 100 hours and submit a letter from the Captain I was now qualified to handle the boat as an owner/operator.

Insurance runs from 1% to 2% of the boat’s value per year. Depending on coverage and assessed risk. For the Grand Banks that ran from $8,000 (US) to $11,000 (Caribbean) to $19,000 (US but within the hurricane belt).

so you had to hire a captain for 100+ hours? Curious...how did that go?...I mean did they just stay onboard for 5 days or so and you guys just tooled around practicing and demonstrating different skills? Do a passage or some coastal cruising?
I suppose if done right that could be reasonable and a person could learn a lot.....
At what sort of cost ballpark?

 

[rgano]

It doesn't matter how big of a boat you've operated; I am a retired Navy Surface Warfare Officer and Navy qualified offshore sailing skipper, so I've operated some big ships! It's about the size of the boats you've owned. Our insurance broker used to deliver 40+ foot catamarans and then train the new owners how to operate the vessels. But, he's only ever owned 20~ish ft boats. So he can only get insurance for a 30~ish footer.

Regards,
Fern

It makes sense to me that insurance companies would be picky about novices just buying any old size boat and motoring off from the sales pier by themselves, and insurance companies seemed to have changed their requirements for new buyers since I bought my first boat. Even highly experienced SWOs like us who may not have OWNED a vessel should satisfy somebody that they have the small vessel handling skills and vessel-specific knowledge for what they are buying. Certainly, for a certified mariner, the time period for under-instruction operations can be greatly compressed before the insurance company approved instructor communicates satisfaction to the underwriter. However, I must say that in 1986 when I purchased a Grand Banks 42 with zero insured previous vessel ownership there was no mention of my previous experience. A few years later, delivery of a commercial 105-footer from New Jersey to California required the owners to certify my entire eight-person crew's experience, and in my case, a copy of my Unlimited Masters License. More recently, I have told friends whose boats I moved around for them to contact their insurance companies with my qualifications before I cast off.

 

[garychurch]

Skyhawks…

We had the Captain on board from Fort Lauderdale to Washington, D.C. a total of 150 passage ICW, offshore, anchoring, moorings and a couple marinas. Captain was $300 per day. Think we spent about $4500 for the Captain.

As a sidebar owning and operating a 64’ MY from Chesapeake to Key West multiple trips to the Bahamas and through the Caribbean to Grenada and back there is no such thing as on the cheap.

 

[skyhawk]

ha ah ..yeah....the question for me isn't about doing it "on the cheap"
it's more about wrapping my head around what I might expect to run into... if this pipe dream of mine falls together some day...

 

[timb7734]

Any false statements on your insurance application are grounds for the insurance company to deny any claim and cancel you without refund. False statements include putting the boat coverage in someone else’s name, as well as glorifying your experience. Just tell the truth, and seek multiple quotes each year. Recently I had coverage that required a five month haul out for hurricane season, a competitive quote for and extra $1,000 eliminated any haul out requirement. My coverage runs at 1/2 of 1 % including a max liability amount and a $40K deductible.

 

[SteveK]

Any false statements on your insurance application are grounds for the insurance company to deny any claim and cancel you without refund. False statements include putting the boat coverage in someone else’s name, as well as glorifying your experience. Just tell the truth, and seek multiple quotes each year. Recently I had coverage that required a five month haul out for hurricane season, a competitive quote for and extra $1,000 eliminated any haul out requirement. My coverage runs at 1/2 of 1 % including a max liability amount and a $40K deductible.

I agree with most of this. Are you sure about the without refund part? Somewhere in back of the mind they must refund the unused pro rata portion to avoid legal issues of holding payment or some such for services no longer offered.

 

[timb7734]

Generally stated both in the application and the policy as misstatements can be construed as fraud therefore no refund.

 

[BandB]

I agree with most of this. Are you sure about the without refund part? Somewhere in back of the mind they must refund the unused pro rata portion to avoid legal issues of holding payment or some such for services no longer offered.

They do generally return premium for the same reason they deny the claim. Their stance is you were not insured. So, if not insured, return premium. They could likely do otherwise, claim fraud gives them the right, but the cases I know of they didn't.

I knew a guy who lived in Brooklyn, worked in Manhattan, insured his car at his brother's home in Myrtle Beach and bragged about how much he saved. That is until his car was stolen outside his brownstone in Brooklyn. One year old Mercedes, no payment, but they did return his premium.

 

[BruceK]

Insurance carries a duty of "utmost good faith", on both insurer and insured. The dishonest or tricky may have trouble understanding that and learn about it, to their disadvantage, when things go wrong.

Insurers seem to have trouble appreciating it`s a mutual obligation. Unlike the duty of disclosure which falls on the insured.

If you tell the insurer the truth, and they accept the Proposal, you should be ok. Lie to them to get cover and you might as well not bother.

Seems to me that with boats, an insurer needs to carefully assess risk, including the experience/competence of the proposer/insured. Our major marine insurer, Club Marine, part of the Allianz Group, seems to employ underwriters who actually know something about boats and boating. I once tried getting a quote from another insurer as a check, and it was obvious the person I dealt with knew zilch about boats. Better an honorable specialist insurer if you can find one.

 

[AlanT]

Insurance carries a duty of "utmost good faith", on both insurer and insured. The dishonest or tricky may have trouble understanding that and learn about it, to their disadvantage, when things go wrong.

Insurers seem to have trouble appreciating it`s a mutual obligation. Unlike the duty of disclosure which falls on the insured.

If you tell the insurer the truth, and they accept the Proposal, you should be ok. Lie to them to get cover and you might as well not bother.

Seems to me that with boats, an insurer needs to carefully assess risk, including the experience/competence of the proposer/insured. Our major marine insurer, Club Marine, part of the Allianz Group, seems to employ underwriters who actually know something about boats and boating. I once tried getting a quote from another insurer as a check, and it was obvious the person I dealt with knew zilch about boats. Better an honorable specialist insurer if you can find one.

Utmost Good Faith, or "Ubirima Fides" is the motto of Lloyd's of London where I was a broker for years before departing for the former colonies.