Going to look at a 08 Helmsman 38E

[capran]

What should I look for, questions to ask, problems to expect on a Helmsman 38E.? New to this forum. Long time sailor (currently on a Catalina 34). Am I crazy to want to make the switch? I know fuel consumption will be more. Any and all help appreciated!!!

 

[O C Diver]

What should I look for, questions to ask, problems to expect on a Helmsman 38E.? New to this forum. Long time sailor (currently on a Catalina 34). Am I crazy to want to make the switch? I know fuel consumption will be more. Any and all help appreciated!!!

Ask if the standing rigging has been replaced.

Seriously, you will find most of the systems to be similar to what you're use to. Many will be larger like the engine, fuel and water tanks. After that, some surveyors will do a pre survey look over to spot obvious problems and concerns.

Ted

 

[FWT]

Welcome aboard the forum.

To echo Ted, you obviously know boating and boats. The translation should be easy.

If you have not wandered this site much yet, you will find quite a number of us here have H38's or have new ones on order. Including me, with one on order. So pardon my bias when I say you have picked a darn good boat to make the switch.

I hope it works out for you.

 

[capran]

Thanks for the encouragement

The back story: We met a couple on this boat back in 2015 or so at Spencer Spit. They hadn't had the boat long and invited us aboard for a look after we gave the wife a ride back from the beach. In 16 we had just changed out our hot water tank and were driving S on 5 when Scott called us, saying it was on the market (the woman had developed serious medical issues and they could no longer boat). We stopped and had another look at the boat, but by the time we drove back to Spokane had enough reasons to stick with sailing. Last year while at Friday Harbor we saw the boat and walked by and chatted with the current owners, and gave them our number. They called us last week. We placed a quick ad on Craigs list for our boat, but with everything having to line up perfectly, didn't think there was really much chance. Had one very interested party, a very knowledgeable sailor, who wanted to buy but when he started calling around found out there is no wet moorage, and didn't want to keep on the hard like we do. After 7 other people, one has scheduled a survey before the end of the month and still getting calls. So maybe it can happen. Have the 38 older survey which noted there were a number of concerns at that time, and not sure any were addressed. Is it normal to have the original batteries? (we replace ours about every 6-7 years), and in 2016 2 caps on the Rolls batteries damaged (one melted). I couldn't find much on line, but it looks like those batteries are over 300 pounds???!!! That must be quite an expense to replace. Mention also of a "pressure drop test" of the LPG system. He said this was never a problem, but if it's losing pressure, that means it's leaking, so that's a big problem. (we use the boat all summer out cruising). Water stains by the pilothouse door, which sounds like an often encountered issue on the 38E.

 

[O C Diver]

Those sound like minor issues. If the survey said the engine was knocking, that would be a concern. Write a contract contingent on the sale of your boat, survey, and financing. Then get the boat surveyed.

Ted

 

[capran]

added thoughts/questions

Have read the thread here about dripless replacement, with some saying 6-7 years, some more. What was cost when done on a boat this size? How much to replace batteries? Are they really over 300#? When anchoring out, how long can I go without running motor to charge? (no generator). I can go 5 days or more on my sailboat I do my zincs annually on shaft and heat exchanger, and have the Zinc Saver II. Is one every 2 years when bottom painted enough? The engine intake sea valve was not bonded in 2016. Any problems with the anchor windass remote?

 

[capran]

Those sound like minor issues. If the survey said the engine was knocking, that would be a concern. Write a contract contingent on the sale of your boat, survey, and financing. Then get the boat surveyed.

Ted

We do have an understanding about the sale of our boat, and talked to the 2016 surveyor and will call him back after we have a look after we're aboard to schedule a survey. The propane, battery and shaft seal seem like bigger ticket items, since when we use the boat, we go out for the whole summer. It would be different if we kept it in a slip and just used it occasionally. Speaking of which, any concerns about keeping it on the hard? Is there a drain to completely drain the fresh water system including hoses? Or does one have to do the RV antifreeze like I do with the Catalina?

 

[RedRascal]

...When anchoring out, how long can I go without running motor to charge? (no generator). I can go 5 days or more on my sailboat...

This will most likely depend on how much energy the refrigerator uses and the size of the battery bank. I small frig will use about 25 amp hours a day but on the helmsman you may be closer to 50 amp hours per day. So roughly 5 days x 50 = 250 amp hours. For a lead acid battery bank you'd need double your consumption for capacity so about a 500 amp hour bank for just the frig. Lights don't consume much energy so it really boils down to the frig unless you keep a bunch of accessories on 24x7.

 

[O C Diver]

We do have an understanding about the sale of our boat, and talked to the 2016 surveyor and will call him back after we have a look after we're aboard to schedule a survey. The propane, battery and shaft seal seem like bigger ticket items, since when we use the boat, we go out for the whole summer.

I'm assuming you have a boatyard or mechanic that you already use for projects on your sailboat that are beyond your capabilities. Go to them and get some estimates.

The batteries should be pretty easy.

Propane shouldn't be tough. The regulator and the electric valve are in a locker. The rest is replacing tubing, if thats the issue. This shouldn't be difficult. It's not like you're doing a new install.

As far as the dripless, I would negotiate a price to have it done during the survey. Or if you want to own the boat first, it might be appropriate to do when you're painting the bottom.

Look, I'm not saying there isn't a cost, but it's certainly not trying to estimate a cost for a problem with an unknown solution.

Ted

 

[Helmsman]

I also have one on order. On my previous boat, I had two dripless shaft seals replaced in 2017 for about $1,600. That didn’t include the haul out charge. I had the seals replaced I had bottom paint done. The process is to detach the shaft from the transmission, pull it back far enough to pull the old off and put the new one on. If you go with a Tides Marine, you can have a spare seal put on the shaft to replace without pulling the boat.

The current batteries on a new 38 are 215 amp hour AGM’s that are approximately 160 lbs. Not sure what might be in yours. The water ingress around the doors would be a concern, and should be noted for the surveyor to take a hard look. These boats are solidly built compared to other boats based upon my own walk throughs on both a newer 38 and a 43.

Hope it works out for you and welcome to the forum! Keep asking questions and folks here will help. Keep us posted as you go through the process.

 

[capran]

thanks- feeling a bit overwhelmed

I also have one on order. On my previous boat, I had two dripless shaft seals replaced in 2017 for about $1,600. That didn’t include the haul out charge. I had the seals replaced I had bottom paint done. The process is to detach the shaft from the transmission, pull it back far enough to pull the old off and put the new one on. If you go with a Tides Marine, you can have a spare seal put on the shaft to replace without pulling the boat.

The current batteries on a new 38 are 215 amp hour AGM’s that are approximately 160 lbs. Not sure what might be in yours. The water ingress around the doors would be a concern, and should be noted for the surveyor to take a hard look. These boats are solidly built compared to other boats based upon my own walk throughs on both a newer 38 and a 43.

Hope it works out for you and welcome to the forum! Keep asking questions and folks here will help. Keep us posted as you go through the process.

Well, I spent over 4 hours on the boat. Feels a bit overwhelming. The Batteries are Rolls 6 CS 25PM. The water stain is on the inside wood, on the after side of the port and starboard pilot doors. They were noted in the 2016 survey. Lugger John Deere engine, simple, reliable, low hours. no Generator. Just drove back home and digesting what I saw. Also got firm offers on my sailboat. Just a huge boat in comparison to the Catalina 34. He had sent me the survey from 16 with a comment that the "bellows hose should be replaced". If we get the same surveyor wil need to clarify that. hose, or bellows.

 

[Helmsman]

Well, I spent over 4 hours on the boat. Feels a bit overwhelming. The Batteries are Rolls 6 CS 25PM. The water stain is on the inside wood, on the after side of the port and starboard pilot doors. They were noted in the 2016 survey. Lugger John Deere engine, simple, reliable, low hours. no Generator. Just drove back home and digesting what I saw. Also got firm offers on my sailboat. Just a huge boat in comparison to the Catalina 34. He had sent me the survey from 16 with a comment that the "bellows hose should be replaced". If we get the same surveyor wil need to clarify that. hose, or bellows.

The hose or bellows is the rubber tube that connects from the fiberglass stern tube (shaft leaves the boat there) to the seal that around the shaft. A dripless shaft seal life span is approximately 6 years, though many people don’t replace them for years after that. They are a normal maintenance item.

Here is a link to a Tides Marine seal with pictures. This is what I had on my boat.

https://citimarinestore.com/citiguide/tides-marine-shaft-seals-everything-you-need-to-know/


The newer Helmsman’s have another brand called PYI shaft seals.

https://citimarinestore.com/en/24-pyi-shaft-seals

Personal preference on which to use.

One of the big selling points of a Helmsman for me is the room inside and the visibility the large windows provide.

 

[FWT]

"Just a huge boat in comparison to the Catalina 34."

I smiled, in a good way, reading that.

The Eureka moment arrived.

What you CAN do (enjoyment) and what you MUST do (systems monitoring and general maintenance). Is a big leap. Both grow. A lot.

You know boating. Its not starting from scratch. You are starting with a good platform under you, assuming a new survey confirms that. Lots to learn, but of course that's true for everyone else too.

Its used. It won't be perfect.

My smile? My last boat was sail, some years back. I get the perspective.

"Speaking of which, any concerns about keeping it on the hard?"

I just can't imagine how a plan to keep it on the hard and launch it with each use could work. We are talking about a boat that is 30,000 lbs dry, and probably 35,000 lbs with fluids and equipment. People take a lot of time to settle things out after haulout, and a lot of time to settle things out to splash it. The cost of haulout would be significant. Maybe you have a yard organized around that sort of thing, but its hard to picture it. Never seen that done before, which leads to a jump to conclusions of it may not be practical. Having said that, I've never seen that plan tried with a boat as big as a Catalina 34, and yet you are doing it, so what do I know.

 

[capran]

follow up questions -dry storage and master bed footprint measurements

"Just a huge boat in comparison to the Catalina 34."

I smiled, in a good way, reading that.

The Eureka moment arrived.

What you CAN do (enjoyment) and what you MUST do (systems monitoring and general maintenance). Is a big leap. Both grow. A lot.

You know boating. Its not starting from scratch. You are starting with a good platform under you, assuming a new survey confirms that. Lots to learn, but of course that's true for everyone else too.

Its used. It won't be perfect.

My smile? My last boat was sail, some years back. I get the perspective.

"Speaking of which, any concerns about keeping it on the hard?"

I just can't imagine how a plan to keep it on the hard and launch it with each use could work. We are talking about a boat that is 30,000 lbs dry, and probably 35,000 lbs with fluids and equipment. People take a lot of time to settle things out after haulout, and a lot of time to settle things out to splash it. The cost of haulout would be significant. Maybe you have a yard organized around that sort of thing, but its hard to picture it. Never seen that done before, which leads to a jump to conclusions of it may not be practical. Having said that, I've never seen that plan tried with a boat as big as a Catalina 34, and yet you are doing it, so what do I know.

When we worked we were in education, which gave us summers off. So every summer since 1986 we have spent the whole summer out cruising and leaving the boat on the hard. Yes, easier the smaller. Pearson 26 (86-92), Neport 30 (93-2000) and the Catalina 34 from 01 to the present. Maybe I'll call Scott and get his opinion on storing it on the hard. If that's not feasible, I need to know now. The current owner said he didn't see it as problematic, but maybe that's because he wants to sell a boat. PS does anyone know the master cabin bed footprint measurements, and whether it might be feasible to scoot the mattress aft a couple of inches and make a foam inset at the forward bulkhead to give the bed a few extra inches (I'm 6' 3")

 

[FWT]

When we worked we were in education, which gave us summers off. So every summer since 1986 we have spent the whole summer out cruising and leaving the boat on the hard. Yes, easier the smaller. Pearson 26 (86-92), Neport 30 (93-2000) and the Catalina 34 from 01 to the present. Maybe I'll call Scott and get his opinion on storing it on the hard. If that's not feasible, I need to know now. The current owner said he didn't see it as problematic, but maybe that's because he wants to sell a boat. PS does anyone know the master cabin bed footprint measurements, and whether it might be feasible to scoot the mattress aft a couple of inches and make a foam inset at the forward bulkhead to give the bed a few extra inches (I'm 6' 3")

If you are talking about leaving it in the water for the summer season, and hauling it out for the winter, that is the most common practice in the mid east coast and points north. Not questioning that sort of plan. Back east its done due to ice, and no fun use in the winter. It just sounded like you planned to put it in and out after each weekend or week of use.

I guess a conversation with your yard and getting those costs is the only source to answer any questions about it.

Bed: look at the website pics. There is a lip around the edge and foot of the bed. That's your barrier to what you want. So look and make the judgement. I guess you "can", with some pressure on the lip, and some droop on the end.

 

[capran]

If you are talking about leaving it in the water for the summer season, and hauling it out for the winter, that is the most common practice in the mid east coast and points north. Not questioning that sort of plan. Back east its done due to ice, and no fun use in the winter. It just sounded like you planned to put it in and out after each weekend or week of use.

I guess a conversation with your yard and getting those costs is the only source to answer any questions about it.

Bed: look at the website pics. There is a lip around the edge and foot of the bed. That's your barrier to what you want. So look and make the judgement. I guess you "can", with some pressure on the lip, and some droop on the end.

Thanks. The owner just e mailed me and had recently purchased a new bed. The manufacturer told him it was 77 1/2" long. I would not have a problem if my toes had to hang over. Interestingly, my costs should remail the same for storage and haul. My yard lumps all boats into the under 50 and over 50 for haul, launch and storage is in 10 foot increments. Since I am currently 34, they said they will leave me in that catagory rather than ding me for the extra 10" of LOA.

 

[FWT]

Sounds like you are cleared for takeoff, pending survey

Hope it works out for you

 

[Barrie]

Our boat had a history of rain water coming in the pilot house doors too. We had some stains but previous owner had repaired. no big deal. It seems that when you get a heavy driving rain that goes sideways, it gets in-between the 1/2 slot between the house wall and the door.
I am actually in the middle of fixing this problem now and have one door off ready to install weather stripping on the end of the door.
We have a generator but are use to not using it as our previous boat didn't have one and we have gone solar on this boat too. We can stay out for days.
If your batteries are where mine are, under the lazarette, (back porch) they are a pain to get at and are heavy. I bought new house batteries last year and got them half price (dealer price) as i have a friend who was in "the business". So suggest you find yourself a friend.
Propane should not be a big deal to fix as others have mentioned.
We bought our boat in 10 minutes of seeing it, but it was conditional of a survey. Passed with flying colours. These are GREAT boats. Hope it works out for you. Ring my bell if you need to chat. Good ;uck
Barrie

 

[Comodave]

As to the door leaks, I would do whatever is possible to fix the gap. Then if you are going to store the boat for long periods of time I would make some waterproof covers for the outside of the doors. That is the best defense against leaks. On a previous boat I made some covers out of Stamoid for some problem windows. Since Stamoid is waterproof it fits the bill perfectly. Then install the covers when you will be away from the boat and during heavy rains. I used keder strips across the top and snaps down the sides. If you can keep the water off the door in the first place the gaskets on the door don’t have to work as hard or as well

 

[capran]

status update

Well, looks like everything fell into place. My sailboat easily sold first week and cashed the cashiers check and signed over the title last week. Survey and sea trials- a number of issues that will be fixed before closing- two thru-hulls were not bonded, and one needs new sea cock (and when the yard opens it up, we'll rely on them to say if it's both the thru hull AND seacock or just the latter. The engine exhaust water injection stainless steel vented loop showed some corrosion on outside weld. Removed to determine if it should be replaced or cleaned and weld checked professionally. PSS to be replaced. The engine raw water sea strainer is not bonded and shows evidence of seeping and some corrosion at the inlet fitting. Replacing inlet fitting and bonding. Other things can be done as we go. looking at options to address common issue like the water seepage near the pilot house doors. Need to dry out and learning what to use to stop the water that trickles down along small wood strip at after end of door, and you can see a void where it starts to turn to form the bottom of the doorway where water finds it's way inside. A lot of mention of current ABYC standards which were not in effect when boat was built. Will tend to those as well as many smaller issues like bilge pump fuses should be 9 amp instead of the 15. I do hope to hear from Helmsman owners that have kept their boat on the hard during winter. I would love to not have to do the RV antifreeze and figure out a way to completely drain tanks, hot water and all lines to avoid freezing. Also, I'm a paper chart guy. looks like the opening to the "chart table" is tiny! and think I also need to mount a RAM mike up above. The receptacle is just sitting in the cupboard next to the upper helm station, so to use it, that door would have to be opened. A 15 year old boat and no one wanted to mount the RAM receptacle? Weird. Lugger engine simple, uncomplicated, slow but economical, and I've been going slow for 40 years of sailing, so should not be a problem. Old batteries are a concern, but I'll see how the first summer cruising goes. Wonder if I need to pick up a Honda Generator just in case.

 

[FWT]

Congratulations!

 

[Barrie]

Congratulations! You must be over the moon.

 

[Helmsman]

Congratulations! Some minor issues and you are on your way. Sounds like a lot of fun for you this summer. Please keep us posted as you work through the boat. We can all learn from each other.

 

[ranger58sb]

Well, looks like everything fell into place. My sailboat easily sold first week and cashed the cashiers check and signed over the title last week. Survey and sea trials- a number of issues that will be fixed before closing- two thru-hulls were not bonded, and one needs new sea cock (and when the yard opens it up, we'll rely on them to say if it's both the thru hull AND seacock or just the latter. The engine exhaust water injection stainless steel vented loop showed some corrosion on outside weld. Removed to determine if it should be replaced or cleaned and weld checked professionally. PSS to be replaced. The engine raw water sea strainer is not bonded and shows evidence of seeping and some corrosion at the inlet fitting. Replacing inlet fitting and bonding. Other things can be done as we go. looking at options to address common issue like the water seepage near the pilot house doors. Need to dry out and learning what to use to stop the water that trickles down along small wood strip at after end of door, and you can see a void where it starts to turn to form the bottom of the doorway where water finds it's way inside. A lot of mention of current ABYC standards which were not in effect when boat was built. Will tend to those as well as many smaller issues like bilge pump fuses should be 9 amp instead of the 15. I do hope to hear from Helmsman owners that have kept their boat on the hard during winter. I would love to not have to do the RV antifreeze and figure out a way to completely drain tanks, hot water and all lines to avoid freezing. Also, I'm a paper chart guy. looks like the opening to the "chart table" is tiny! and think I also need to mount a RAM mike up above. The receptacle is just sitting in the cupboard next to the upper helm station, so to use it, that door would have to be opened. A 15 year old boat and no one wanted to mount the RAM receptacle? Weird. Lugger engine simple, uncomplicated, slow but economical, and I've been going slow for 40 years of sailing, so should not be a problem. Old batteries are a concern, but I'll see how the first summer cruising goes. Wonder if I need to pick up a Honda Generator just in case.

Geez, that big ol' blurb with no paragraphs was hard to read online...

After draining tanks and water heater, you can often use compressed air to blow water out of the lines, potentially no AF required.

-Chris

 

[capran]

Geez, that big ol' blurb with no paragraphs was hard to read online...

After draining tanks and water heater, you can often use compressed air to blow water out of the lines, potentially no AF required.

-Chris

Thanks. I'll need to get a compressor and figure out how that is done.

I'm sorry. I will try to break issues into separate paragraphs in the future. It's probably a reflection of how everything is running together at the moment.