PSS clearance Helmsman 38

[capran]

Survey cites the 6-7 year replacement of the PSS needed, which had not been done when current owner bought it 6 years ago. Looks like we are purchasing a 2008 Helmsman 38 (AKA Mariner Seville 37). When the end of the shaft is released, is there enough clearance to pull the shaft out enough to install the new PSS, of does the prop and or ? need to be removed to allow the mechanic enough room to remove the old and slip on the new?

so many questions, but will keep things separated.

 

[Comodave]

Yes, the PSS needs replacing at about 6 to 7 years. Don’t know about your specific boat if there is or isn’t enough room to slide the shaft back to swap it out. Is the boat out of the water?

 

[capran]

Yes, the PSS needs replacing at about 6 to 7 years. Don’t know about your specific boat if there is or isn’t enough room to slide the shaft back to swap it out. Is the boat out of the water?

The boat is currently in the water but will be hauled out for that and a few other things like replacing a seacock. I was hoping maybe a Helmsman owner who has had the work done would know if it can be done without removing prop or rudder. For example, we had a Catalina 34 and I can say for sure that there was room to do the PSS without removing the prop or rudder.

 

[Comodave]

Some have room and some don’t. We have had boats both ways. When you haul you can measure it to ne sure.

 

[Helmsman]

Capran, if you do need to remove the rudder a couple of things to consider.

You may want to replace the seal on it also.

I believe the rudder profile has been changed since your boat was manufactured. Perhaps someone here has done that and can offer some input.

 

[capran]

Capran, if you do need to remove the rudder a couple of things to consider.

You may want to replace the seal on it also.

I believe the rudder profile has been changed since your boat was manufactured. Perhaps someone here has done that and can offer some input.

Thanks. I was hoping to get someone who has done the PSS on a similar vintage to know. Sounds like you are saying there is a rudder seal that might need replacing especially if the rudder needs to come off to replace the PSS. wonderful. (Not!) Surely there is someone out there.

 

[Helmsman]

Thanks. I was hoping to get someone who has done the PSS on a similar vintage to know. Sounds like you are saying there is a rudder seal that might need replacing especially if the rudder needs to come off to replace the PSS. wonderful. (Not!) Surely there is someone out there.

Yeah, that makes sense. Hopefully, someone will jump in with experience pulling it.

 

[Comodave]

The problem may be that even if some here have had it replaced they may have had it done instead of DIY so they may not know the specifics.

 

[Helmsman]

Thanks. I was hoping to get someone who has done the PSS on a similar vintage to know. Sounds like you are saying there is a rudder seal that might need replacing especially if the rudder needs to come off to replace the PSS. wonderful. (Not!) Surely there is someone out there.

Here is the quote from the Helmsman site

“ PYI Dripless-type prop shaft seal with inspection window
Tides Marine rudder shaft seals”

 

[capran]

Here is the quote from the Helmsman site

“ PYI Dripless-type prop shaft seal with inspection window
Tides Marine rudder shaft seals”

Interesting. It was referred to in the original survey when the current owner bought it as a PSS. I'll check with him to see if there was any documentation of what was installed and when. I wish owners would do as ai did on my sailboat. Every time I replaced something, the model #/part#, date and workorder was documented and kept in a separate folder. I gave the buyer of my sailboat everything. Probably more than he might want, but at least he has the date/hours/model/part number of everything done in my 21 years of ownership. I'd love to have that on the helmsman!

 

[MYTraveler]

When replacing the PSS seals, a good trick is to slip a second seal over the shaft. That way, when the first new seal wears out, the second can be used without moving the shaft.

 

[capran]

When replacing the PSS seals, a good trick is to slip a second seal over the shaft. That way, when the first new seal wears out, the second can be used without moving the shaft.

I had sure hoped to hear from Helmsman owners. It's been mentioned that they often do just that with the tides marine dripless, but when I look at pics of tides marine, it looks like mine has the PSS, and not sure if the rudder needs to be dropped to install a replacement, or if an additional seal is an option with the PSS.

 

[Comodave]

Most boats will either have the rudder offset so you can pull the prop and then slide the shaft back past the rudder. Or have a hole in the rudder for the shaft to slide through.

 

[Helmsman]

I had sure hoped to hear from Helmsman owners. It's been mentioned that they often do just that with the tides marine dripless, but when I look at pics of tides marine, it looks like mine has the PSS, and not sure if the rudder needs to be dropped to install a replacement, or if an additional seal is an option with the PSS.

I am pretty sure (from research in 2017) only the Tides Marine has the capability for an additional seal.

 

[capran]

I am pretty sure (from research in 2017) only the Tides Marine has the capability for an additional seal.

Thanks. In talking to the Marine Center, sounds like they are doing many of the PSS Pro series rather than the Tides Marine, so looks like we'll go with that. At some point, it looks as if someone installed the PSS, just don't know who or when. (at least, the Tides seal looks quite different from the PSS).

 

[Helmsman]

Look at the picture in this thread of “Headed to Texas” prop and rudder. He has a Mariner 37 (Helmsman 38). You will notice a hole in the rudder. I believe that is used to slide the shaft back through when doing work on the tranny or replacing the shaft seals.

 

[Helmsman]

Forget to post the link
https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums...n-38-trawlers-have-left-hand-props-63427.html

 

[capran]

Forget to post the link
https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums...n-38-trawlers-have-left-hand-props-63427.html

Thank you. I had tried to do a search but came up empty. I thought it was due to my low tech skills. LOL. I wonder if the prop must be removed to do the PSS. with my sailboat, the shaft only needed to be released and pulled back the length of the bellows to slip the seal onto the shaft. but also the discussion about backing will add to my learning curve. With the sailboat, the moment I put it in reverse, the stern pulls to port. the owner of my boat says until water is flowing, there is no help from the propwash, but once moving it starts to pull to starboard.. but as he backed out for sea trials, I thought he turned the wheel to port. ugh! I felt so competent on the sailboat after sailing full time summers since 86.

 

[Helmsman]

Thank you. I had tried to do a search but came up empty. I thought it was due to my low tech skills. LOL. I wonder if the prop must be removed to do the PSS. with my sailboat, the shaft only needed to be released and pulled back the length of the bellows to slip the seal onto the shaft. but also the discussion about backing will add to my learning curve. With the sailboat, the moment I put it in reverse, the stern pulls to port. the owner of my boat says until water is flowing, there is no help from the propwash, but once moving it starts to pull to starboard.. but as he backed out for sea trials, I thought he turned the wheel to port. ugh! I felt so competent on the sailboat after sailing full time summers since 86.

The most important skill in close quarters you already have, and that is to go slow. I try never to go faster than I am willing to hit something. The boat seems really large to you right now. I think you will find that it handles pretty well. I owned a 40 foot Carver before that was like a sail in the wind. It didn’t have a bow or stern thruster, but did have two props, which helped in both forward and reverse. The boat seemed overwhelmingly big at first but “shrunk” quickly.

When the Helmsman arrives, my plan will be to practice in calm water until I get a good feel for backing the boat. Having owned several smaller single engine boats should help. We will see how it goes!

If you have access to a prop puller, that could make it a little easier to work on. I would check for any play in the stern tube while I was doing the rest. If you are pulling the boat may as well get that area of the boat completely settled for the next few years. The stuff adds up, but is cheaper to do it as forward maintenance item rather than under duress.

Another area I would look at (it is something I enjoy) is the entire electrical system on the boat. Look for added wiring, check for proper heat shrinking on connections, any melting, scorching, proper wire size, installed with ABYC standards in mind, etc. Look for strain relief, through bulkhead glands, wires in the bilge, etc. if someone has worked on the electrical and there is any old wires that don’t function anymore, I would try to pull them out. Hopefully the boat comes with the original electrical diagram. If so, you can add a new diagram for any additional wiring done since new. Doing so will familiarize yourself with where fusing is, and also wire pulls. Can all be done over time, but I think it is an important safety step, and will provide some peace of mind.

I think you will quickly grow to love the interior space, and the open feel of the salon and pilot house. These boats have a history of high reliability. Breaking the maintenance up into bite sized pieces will reduce the stress levels quite a bit for you, I think. It will take time to learn the boat, but that is part of the fun.

 

[capran]

The most important skill in close quarters you already have, and that is to go slow. I try never to go faster than I am willing to hit something. The boat seems really large to you right now. I think you will find that it handles pretty well. I owned a 40 foot Carver before that was like a sail in the wind. It didn’t have a bow or stern thruster, but did have two props, which helped in both forward and reverse. The boat seemed overwhelmingly big at first but “shrunk” quickly.

When the Helmsman arrives, my plan will be to practice in calm water until I get a good feel for backing the boat. Having owned several smaller single engine boats should help. We will see how it goes!

If you have access to a prop puller, that could make it a little easier to work on. I would check for any play in the stern tube while I was doing the rest. If you are pulling the boat may as well get that area of the boat completely settled for the next few years. The stuff adds up, but is cheaper to do it as forward maintenance item rather than under duress.

Another area I would look at (it is something I enjoy) is the entire electrical system on the boat. Look for added wiring, check for proper heat shrinking on connections, any melting, scorching, proper wire size, installed with ABYC standards in mind, etc. Look for strain relief, through bulkhead glands, wires in the bilge, etc. if someone has worked on the electrical and there is any old wires that don’t function anymore, I would try to pull them out. Hopefully the boat comes with the original electrical diagram. If so, you can add a new diagram for any additional wiring done since new. Doing so will familiarize yourself with where fusing is, and also wire pulls. Can all be done over time, but I think it is an important safety step, and will provide some peace of mind.

I think you will quickly grow to love the interior space, and the open feel of the salon and pilot house. These boats have a history of high reliability. Breaking the maintenance up into bite sized pieces will reduce the stress levels quite a bit for you, I think. It will take time to learn the boat, but that is part of the fun.

I hope so, but not much fun yet. The seller agreed to attend to some survey items and I agreed to have the PSS at the same time at my expense. I was always just a go get put in the water and go with the sailboat, and don't do new things very well. (certainly has gotten worse as I age! I still remember with only small boat lake experience of 3 1 /2 years, flying 3000 miles to Florida, buying a boat and provisioning and heading to the Bahamas). Sure hope I can find and interpret manuals and diagrams, and hope it's not too difficult to figure it all out. The survey did identify many standards differences between when the boat was build and current standards. But initially taking care of essential things necessary to safe operation.

 

[Barrie]

So that is what the hole in the rudder is for. New boat to me and have not had to change the PSS yet. Always learn something on this site.

 

[adornato]

i have to say something then duck for cover. Dripless seals are the biggest ripoof in boat maintenace history. a solution for a problem that doesnt exist.

I have had packed stuffing boxes and dripless seals now in multiple boats for 40 years. The Sabre 42 I owned had been hauled once as an emergency from leaking bellows on a PSS, so it does happen.
I have paid $3400 rrecently in the SF bay area to replace the dripless PSS on my Mainship 30 which was 18 years old. I replaced it because if it leaks catastrophically I might lose my boat and I might also find that the insurance company would note I was out of compliance with the mfr rrecommentation of every 6 years. Every 6 years at $3400 is over $500 bucks a year. Ridiculous.
The dripless needs a fitting and hose to spray water on it from the engine and it has rubber bellows that become more potential fail sites on your boat.
My bilge is always wet anyway from washdowns. A dripping stuffing box is reliable cheap and is much better than a dripless.

I feel better. thanks for listening.

 

[Helmsman]

i have to say something then duck for cover. Dripless seals are the biggest ripoof in boat maintenace history. a solution for a problem that doesnt exist.

I have had packed stuffing boxes and dripless seals now in multiple boats for 40 years. The Sabre 42 I owned had been hauled once as an emergency from leaking bellows on a PSS, so it does happen.
I have paid $3400 rrecently in the SF bay area to replace the dripless PSS on my Mainship 30 which was 18 years old. I replaced it because if it leaks catastrophically I might lose my boat and I might also find that the insurance company would note I was out of compliance with the mfr rrecommentation of every 6 years. Every 6 years at $3400 is over $500 bucks a year. Ridiculous.
The dripless needs a fitting and hose to spray water on it from the engine and it has rubber bellows that become more potential fail sites on your boat.
My bilge is always wet anyway from washdowns. A dripping stuffing box is reliable cheap and is much better than a dripless.

I feel better. thanks for listening.

No reason to duck and cover. What would it have cost you to put a stuffing box in? (if you checked into it). I paid about $2k for two. I agree with you on the cost.

 

[Comodave]

Our last boat had traditional stuffing boxes but with Duramax packing it didn’t drip at all. Simple and effective. Best of both worlds.

 

[Puffin_NT32]

Capran, I'm a little confused. You start out talking about a PSS dripless seal, and I assume you're talking about a PROP shaft PSS seal, and not a RUDDER shaft seal. Don't know anything about a Helmsman 38, but usually the biggest problem with a dripless prop shaft seal replacement is pulling the transmission coupler off the shaft to slip off the old PSS bellows, carbon stator, and stainless rotor, then reinstalling new bellows, clamps, new o-rings and set screws for the SS rotor (the PSS Maintenance Kit). No need to pull a prop. You just need to pull the shaft back enough to pull off the shaft coupler. Pictures I found of the Helmsman 38 show about one foot or more or space from the end of the prop nut to the rudder... more than enough distance to pull the coupler and prop shaft away from the transmission.

I just recently installed the PSS Maintenance Kit on my 17 year old Nordic Tug 32 (I'm original owner). The original seal worked flawlessly, and never leaked, but it was time. On my boat, the black water tank is an enclosed fiberglass tank between stringers under the engine, and I have a pump-out pipe and hose just inches behind the coupler, so no way to get a puller on the coupler. Using "old-school" technique of longer bolts and a small socket between shaft and transmission flange, the coupler just popped off the tapered shaft. Pull shaft back about 6"-10" and you got enough room to replace all components of the PSS seal. Here's a couple of pics.

 

[capran]

Capran, I'm a little confused. You start out talking about a PSS dripless seal, and I assume you're talking about a PROP shaft PSS seal, and not a RUDDER shaft seal. Don't know anything about a Helmsman 38, but usually the biggest problem with a dripless prop shaft seal replacement is pulling the transmission coupler off the shaft to slip off the old PSS bellows, carbon stator, and stainless rotor, then reinstalling new bellows, clamps, new o-rings and set screws for the SS rotor (the PSS Maintenance Kit). No need to pull a prop. You just need to pull the shaft back enough to pull off the shaft coupler. Pictures I found of the Helmsman 38 show about one foot or more or space from the end of the prop nut to the rudder... more than enough distance to pull the coupler and prop shaft away from the transmission.

I just recently installed the PSS Maintenance Kit on my 17 year old Nordic Tug 32 (I'm original owner). The original seal worked flawlessly, and never leaked, but it was time. On my boat, the black water tank is an enclosed fiberglass tank between stringers under the engine, and I have a pump-out pipe and hose just inches behind the coupler, so no way to get a puller on the coupler. Using "old-school" technique of longer bolts and a small socket between shaft and transmission flange, the coupler just popped off the tapered shaft. Pull shaft back about 6"-10" and you got enough room to replace all components of the PSS seal. Here's a couple of pics.

Thank you for that clarification and pics. Yes, I was talking about the dripless PSS shaft seal, and if I suggested a rudder shaft seal that was on me. I guess the confusion was when some comments suggested it may be necessary to drop the rudder or remove the prop. The only pic I have of the underside was at an angle that did not allow an accurate judgement of distance. In talking to the yard and reading comments elsewhere on dripless there was a discussion of the Tides system. At this point I have told the yard to use their best professional judgement as to which should be used. All I know is the current owner has not had it changed under his ownership in 6+ years, so to be safe, better to be proactive and have it done now. I know my PSS with the Catalina has clearance and have not reported any trouble disconnecting the shaft to replace the PSS. Still very overwhelmed at the whole system of all trawler components. I have always known my boat well, developed over 21 years with this particular boat.

 

[Puffin_NT32]

Capran, here's the picture I used to judge distance between prop bolt and rudder. Seems more than enough to slide shaft back to pull coupler.