Tow Boat US boards my boat without my permisiom, knowledge, approval and now wants 9K

CarlF...I forget now....did you work as an assistance tower or with a salvage company? Maybe in the insurance end... I think I remember a connection from previous posts but now I am not sure.

Landshark said:

Running the AC on an unattended boat for days on end is an invitation to this sort of problem. The boat getting hot is not an issue. Mold is something all boaters must deal with. As far as the frig not being able to keep-up, well that's a separate problem. But then if the AC crapped and took down the battery, would the frig stop operating also?

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While there is some truth in this statement it is completely out of touch with reality. A similar statement would be to say leaving the heating on an unattended boat in Alaska is an invitation to a fire. Again, some truth but out of touch with reality.

CarlF said:

Welcome to Admiralty Law!



Salvors can board any unocuppied vessel without permission and pretty much do anything they want to save the boat. Salvage is federal law - it is not subject to state consumer protection or contract law. They have their own court, lawyers, and judges. The Supreme Court has repeatedly supported large salvage awards.

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This is not correct. There is a difference between unoccupied and abandoned. I seriously doubt that USTB could make a successful case that the boat was in peril. At best they can make a case that they were contracted by the marina. With out seeing the moorage agreement it is unknown if the marina has the rights to make such a contract on behalf of the tenant.

tiltrider1 said:

This is not correct. There is a difference between unoccupied and abandoned. I seriously doubt that USTB could make a successful case that the boat was in peril. At best they can make a case that they were contracted by the marina. With out seeing the moorage agreement it is unknown if the marina has the rights to make such a contract on behalf of the tenant.

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I think unoccupied and in danger of sinking is all they need to board. Better, the marina probably told them it might sink when they called. The marina would never contract because of liability issue but are quick to call a “buddy” who can do salvage - and often get a bottle of Scotch for their trouble.

Of course, legal cases are hard to predict.

tiltrider1 said:

This is not correct. There is a difference between unoccupied and abandoned. I seriously doubt that USTB could make a successful case that the boat was in peril. At best they can make a case that they were contracted by the marina. With out seeing the moorage agreement it is unknown if the marina has the rights to make such a contract on behalf of the tenant.

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My contract with the marina states the marina is not responsible for transient dockage. I have however used them regularly for the past 5 years and have a relationship with the dock master and he said he would keep an eye on things for me.


The dock master was horrified when he heard the cost and was so apologetic as he said he had no idea what the cost would be. He agreed there was no danger of the boat sinking or anything like that and shut down the ac that caused the high water alarm so there was no chance of the problem getting worse.

He said he should have left it for me to deal with as he knew my return dates. He just wanted to make sure the ac was the problem and that's why he decided to remove the water.



The dock master and the live aboard neighbor said there was zero evidence of any spillage or sheen in the water as I asked them and there was no coast guard report. There was also zero chance of the boat sinking. The way my bilges work is that if the one gets to high. the water will seep into the other engine bilge and that was dry and clean so no chance of sinking. When I asked the owner of the TBUS, he agreed the boat was not sinking or in any danger of sinking.


A lawyer has advised me to turn this over to my insurance company and request for me to suggest that they request an adjuster/survey to review the situation and demand the documentation from TBUS and basically have them and their attorneys put a stop to these shenanigans. That's what I have done and waiting for the insurance company to advise.

CarlF said:

Of course, legal cases are hard to predict.

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Would definitely agree with this statement.

Being that we have only heard from one party in this dispute I doubt we have all the facts.

Shaunc said:

My contract with the marina states the marina is not responsible for transient dockage. I have however used them regularly for the past 5 years and have a relationship with the dock master and he said he would keep an eye on things for me.


The dock master was horrified when he heard the cost and was so apologetic as he said he had no idea what the cost would be. He agreed there was no danger of the boat sinking or anything like that and shut down the ac that caused the high water alarm so there was no chance of the problem getting worse.

He said he should have left it for me to deal with as he knew my return dates. He just wanted to make sure the ac was the problem and that's why he decided to remove the water.



The dock master and the live aboard neighbor said there was zero evidence of any spillage or sheen in the water as I asked them and there was no coast guard report. There was also zero chance of the boat sinking. The way my bilges work is that if the one gets to high. the water will seep into the other engine bilge and that was dry and clean so no chance of sinking. When I asked the owner of the TBUS, he agreed the boat was not sinking or in any danger of sinking.


A lawyer has advised me to turn this over to my insurance company and request for me to suggest that they request an adjuster/survey to review the situation and demand the documentation from TBUS and basically have them and their attorneys put a stop to these shenanigans. That's what I have done and waiting for the insurance company to advise.

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Sounds like solid advice.

A sage old Coast Guard officer told me the
"Rule of Threes"
When threw things go wrong as a cascading chain of event, your situation can and usually does get bad, often in a hurry.

I would count your leaky engines which you admit put oil in the bulge, drip pans or not.
Your failed electrical system leading to failed pump
Your leaky Air on unit
That's three.

If I were in your shoes I'd feel very lucky to have had someone care enough to come aboard a strange boat and figure out all these issues
He may not have known he wasn't saving your boat from sinking, he was just being responsible on your behalf, trying to do the right thing. He may well have been thinking, "what else might go wrong here?"
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have hung up on the TBUS guys that might still be asked to save you bacon , IN YOUR ABSENCE.
As much as it hurts, I think you need to pay up and at least mend the Fence with your Marina buddy, not to mention avoiding the insurance company which in the end is going to cost probably more than the 5k, legitimate or not.

Capt Dan said:

A sage old Coast Guard officer told me the
"Rule of Threes"
When threw things go wrong as a cascading chain of event, your situation can and usually does get bad, often in a hurry.

I would count your leaky engines which you admit put oil in the bulge, drip pans or not.
Your failed electrical system leading to failed pump
Your leaky Air on unit
That's three.

If I were in your shoes I'd feel very lucky to have had someone care enough to come aboard a strange boat and figure out all these issues
He may not have known he wasn't saving your boat from sinking, he was just being responsible on your behalf, trying to do the right thing. He may well have been thinking, "what else might go wrong here?"
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have hung up on the TBUS guys that might still be asked to save you bacon , IN YOUR ABSENCE.
As much as it hurts, I think you need to pay up and at least mend the Fence with your Marina buddy, not to mention avoiding the insurance company which in the end is going to cost probably more than the 5k, legitimate or not.

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That's not accurate. Ask anyone who runs Detroit diesels and they will tell you they are bullet proof but leak oil. Actually had that comment again today from a boat Captain who came over to look at my boat as he used to have a 53MY Hatteras.


Ac's run 24/7 on Florida boats 9 out of 12 months thats just the way it is period. I am back in my slip now and I can tell you there is not 1 boat on my finger (30 boats) where you can not see the water coming out from ac pumps.


Not an electrical system issue but a single issue. Battery charger malfunctioned. Since bought a new one and running perfectly.


There is no fence to mend with my marina buddy as we are still friends and he is still apologetic that TBUS felt they could take advantage of the situation.



No one is avoiding the insurance company as they were put on notice day 1. I dont agree with them being ripped of either.



I have never said I dont owe for services rendered and I am willing to pay reasonable rates for services performed. However there still has never been an itemized bill presented. This is bad business practices in any field.


Its the lies and descent I cant stand and the fact that I was told dont worry, it wont cost you anything as we will bill your insurance is just plain wrong. We all end up paying for this type of business model.


I will resolve my situation. My hope is that my bad experience makes other boaters aware of what can happen with TBUS and how they operate their business model.

mvweebles said:

So, did the remediation team show up in HazMat suits and such?

When I was in San Francisco planning to come to Mexico, I thought about having my 15-year old diesel fuel removed as it no longer bore any resemblance to diesel fuel (it reminded me of Linseed Oil). I called around a was shocked to find it was considered hazardous waste and would cost over $4000 to remove 100 gals. My ancient Perkins seemed unphased by the crud so I triple-dosed with Stanadyne and went with the old fuel. Worked fine.

I really feel for your situation. But I have a question for you. Once called, what would you have expected the Sea Tow folks to do? If they ignored the situation and it later proved to be a large waste oil situation, they would have liability.

Tough situation. But sounds like you were the only one with knowledge that the situation was far from dangerous. Everyone else (marina, TBUS) erred on the side of caution.

You may want to ask TBUS what the actual disposal fees were. The stuff had to go somewhere. I would think hazardous material disposal is well tracked down to the ounce.

Best of luck. What a PITA

Peter

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Yes, contaminated fuel is both hazardous, and a waste if you want to dispose of it, so hazardous waste. The more common technique is to have a company come with pumps and filers and polish your fuel, circulating it back to tank. More work, but no haz waste generated except the used filters.

Duke 239 said:

Yes, contaminated fuel is both hazardous, and a waste if you want to dispose of it, so hazardous waste. The more common technique is to have a company come with pumps and filers and polish your fuel, circulating it back to tank. More work, but no haz waste generated except the used filters.

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Fuel wasn't contaminated so I doubt polishing would have solved snything. It was 12+ years old and had evolved into something not immediately recognizable as diesel. It was dark and smelled like Linseed Oil. I did my best to dilute it with fresh diesel and added a LOT of Stanadyne. My Perkins seemed to be fine with it. Ran happily for 500 nms straight. Go figure.

Peter

Fletcher500 said:

I am not going to comment about a specific case I know nothing about. Also, people slamming others on the internet for perceived transgressions is not my cup of tea. With that said, I have had nothing but good interactions with both Boat US and Sea Tow in my area. I have personally witnessed, and heard them on the VHF save many peoples bacon over the years.

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I second (or maybe third, fourth, fifth….) this!

Hey Shaun, I've been following this story with interest and have to say you seem like a reasonable guy doing the right thing. I'd never feel comfortable knowing I was being taken, whether it was the insurance company paying the bill or not.

I still fume over the woman who got a few thousand dollar Christmas present from my insurance company when I tapped her beat-up old vehicles bumper on shear ice. She intitially said no harm done...then I got the call from my insurance company. I have a feeling her husband spotted an opportunity.

I don't know how you can impress upon your insurance company that this is a scam, but I have a feeling they will just pay the bill and move on. I also don't think you will ever find out what they did.

Just a comment. Had a small dink 13ft with 30hp O/B sunk in a storm. I was in Hawaii, boat in Calif. Called Sea Tow and they would not take it on, said they don't do salvage at all. That was the Main office, not the franchise as Sea Tow doesn't have a franchise in Norcal, they just farm out to Boat US. This was before they even knew where the boat was. All contacts I have had with Sea Tow and Boat US have been professionally handled with reasonable fees for services rendered.

Off the Sea Tow National website....

"Most all of the on the-water services performed by Sea Tow involve vessels in some degree of peril and are therefore technically salvage. The difference is that many of these services are low peril, for example, covered ungroundings, jump starts and fuel drops, which are covered by your Sea Tow membership and are provided free of charge."

They started to really expand after the Deepwater Horizon event.... particularly Environmental Cleanup.... but salvage is still really up to the particular franchise and the level of salvage they will do.

Keep in mind that the particular Towboat/US is probably a franchise so don’t label all of them as bad. In every place in life you will find a bad apple, maybe this is one???

Comodave said:

Keep in mind that the particular Towboat/US is probably a franchise so don’t label all of them as bad. In every place in life you will find a bad apple, maybe this is one???

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I know that there are bad apples out there and as I mentioned earlier, I know someone who worked for TBUS and their boats. He has since contacted me again and said he had actually ran more than 1 boat for different operators. He said the one operation was their to scam boaters and insurance companies that he had leave them. He could not work for scammers. He did say that the reason he took the poisition is that he had such a great time working for another TBUS operation and they truly were there to help people and do the right thing. While working for them he did get to hear horror stories of how some other franchisees were scamming people.



So yes, as a former franchise owner myself I know there are some bad ones out there.



My reason for the post was to bring to attention that that Knight in shinning Armour that you call(or dont) who shows up to rescue the day may not be there to rescue you but rather screw you and your insurance company.


Be Aware!!!

That's why when people ask which tow company should they become a member with, I always say look at their equipment, meet the captains in your area and meet the franchise owners. Lastly, check around on their reputation. Like many online reviews it takes a lot more than a few good or bad ones to get a good picture.

It's less about the money for the membership and just as much as the service.

The other advice is read, reread and talk to people about what your membership entails. Many people have a completely different idea of what a tow service is than what they have contracted for. Services do include a lot, but not everything.... and just because you joined a franchise in your area doesn't mean all franchises provide all the same services elsewhere. There is some flexibility in services beyond the standard membership agreement.

No matter which service you join, if you are truly in a salvage situation (read a couple "salvage definitions" from each major tower and beyond), no membership is technically valid to cover a salvage event. Anyone.... even beyond the tow companies, could do what happened in this thread with a boat potentially sinking and polluting. I did say "potentially" polluting which may have to be straightened out by binding arbitration or even court if s disagreement about services rendered arises.

Something as simple as needing a bigger or second boat to pull you off from being aground can be classified as a salvage event, not covered by membership. Read your membership agreement.

Lastly a topic many thought strange/dishonest, franchises cannot charge per gallon for fuel delivery. At least not in NJ. So BY LAW, we just charged members $40 per 5 gal container (back when 5 gal of gas cost say $20 at the pump). That also helped cover the cost of taking the container(s) to get refilled. Non-members got charged that plus the hourly dispatch costs.

Cold Duck said:

Just a comment. Had a small dink 13ft with 30hp O/B sunk in a storm. I was in Hawaii, boat in Calif. Called Sea Tow and they would not take it on, said they don't do salvage at all. That was the Main office, not the franchise as Sea Tow doesn't have a franchise in Norcal, they just farm out to Boat US. This was before they even knew where the boat was. All contacts I have had with Sea Tow and Boat US have been professionally handled with reasonable fees for services rendered.

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You have to think of SeaTow and BoatUS like the FTD florist. FTD doesn't own any flower shops. They are a centralized network that has 'members'. So you don't need to know who to call to have flowers delivered in some city you've never been in before. CAll FTD and FTD hands off to one of their affiliates, which is a flower shop in that town.

Same with Boat US and SeaTow. They are part of a franchise. They are a marine towing and salvage company, much like a car wrecker might be a AAA vendor. (Again, triple AAA is another insurance company and franchise, who aren't in the actual towing business).

You call Seatow or Boat US and they dispatch and pay for the tow. IF it's a Salvage, that is between the marine towing and salvage company and your insurance company.

What is ridiculous is everyone contesting what is a legal salvage. Where the owners rights end and the salvors right begin and and misguided concept of who can authorize action.

Those arguing against legitimate salvages don't understand Salcon-89

Shrew said:

What is ridiculous is everyone contesting what is a legal salvage. Where the owners rights end and the salvors right begin and and misguided concept of who can authorize action. Those arguing against legitimate salvages don't understand Salcon-89

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+1

We live in an age where perceived environmental events can and should not be ignored. Especially so when coastal waters and wetlands are at continual risk.

Having just reread Salcon-89...not sure how it applies to salvage of vessels tied to the dock as we almost always waited for owners permission. Underway we still had to ask.

If not underway ourselves, launching to provide assistance also is not clear in my mind as a "must" item.

The environmental issue isnt always a clear part of salvage either. Its not includex in the "must provide assistance" category as paying for it isnt necessarily guaranteed though the USCG does have a fund for cleanups that may otherwisego unpaid. But the have to grant authority.

So it is murky even to those in the business and why salvage does often wind up in arbitration or court. I do agree that it does often go the way of the salvor as most arent crooked, but often the awards are beter scrutinized againt real risk.

If I assume that your side of the story is complete and correct----Personally i would tell tow boat US that i would cut them a check for $400 for payment in full, if that was not satisfactory, then they could sue me, but that i would counter sue them for my costs as well as damages. i would also open a fraud complaint with the BBB on that particular franchise as well as send a letter to their corporate office. Talking about this like it is SALVAGE is absolutely ridiculous. Likewise talking about it like it was some big environmental crisis is likewise ridiculous- you get more oil runoff from a parking lot every time it rains than what this would be. They did you a small service (actually they did the dockmaster a small service.) The fact that they claim they showed up in hazmat suits etc. is silly. In the letter to them and to their corporate offices, let them know that if it goes to trial you are going to subpoena every single person that they claim was there in a hazmat suit etc. Also if it exists get copies of any cameras the marina has of the parking lot or the dock area for that day now before it is erased. Demand proof of the disposal and ask for specific names of the people that they claim were on the boat. If they are claiming all of this and it didn't happen, it would amount to an attempt to defraud the insurance company- the bit about them dropping their bill from an initial claim of 12k tells you this is a scam. Also let their corporate office know that if they persist and you find evidence that it was all BS, you are going to shout it on every internet forum you can as well as personally carry it down to the local news channels and then the district attorney's office.--one question- who let them on the boat? I would assume the harbor master/ dock master was there- what did he see?

MaDehn
There are two fatal flaws in your advice. First is the harbor master perceived an issue and absent the owner’s availability proceeds with a by the book response.

Secondly when dealing with monetary issues involving murky actions and responsibilities a simple negotiated settlement between the parties should be the starting point.

Subpoenas, legal action and bravado may get the job done but at what cost. And, there is always the rest of the story —-

sunchaser said:

MaDehn
There are two fatal flaws in your advice. First is the harbor master perceived an issue and absent the owner’s availability proceeds with a by the book response.

Secondly when dealing with monetary issues involving murky actions and responsibilities a simple negotiated settlement between the parties should be the starting point.

Subpoenas, legal action and bravado may get the job done but at what cost. And, there is always the rest of the story —-

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they are all thieves liars and crooks.

"they are all thieves liars and crooks."

Thanks...I was an assistance tower...and my 2 employers were stellar individuals....feel free with your opinions...but it does nothing for your reputation as a poster here.

As Mark Twain said, all generalizations are false, including this one.

Would note
Advice about franchises is not relevant for some. Many boaters on vessels over 36’ got those vessels with intentions of travel. They aren’t day trippers and commonly travel through the areas of multiple franchises. Although a particular franchise may apply their discretion your contract with the tow company is not with an individual franchise but rather the tow company. It’s what is in that contract that informs you what services you are entitled to and what you are not. Similarly insurance contracts are contracts. Both parties have certain rights and obligations as defined by that contract. Very worthwhile to read both your insurance contract and your tow contract.
Have heard several stories where the local tow company when arriving to provide assistance have tried to get the owner or operator to grant salvage rights before providing assistance. The discussion is loaded when the tow company is the only game in town and need for assistance urgent. Occasionally the option is to have the tow company speak directly to the insurance company via the 24h number. The concern of the owner or operator is that the assistance will leave. Important to have some level of knowledge about when salvage is appropriate. Also the obligations of the responding assistance. This varies by country and area and how the assistance was made aware of the need. In the US I will decide who to call and when. I’ve only needed one tow in my life. We were able to safely anchor before asking for assistance so felt it reasonable to not involve the CG. Had a conversation with the local franchise about where to take us, when and how. Very pleasant and uneventful. If I thought lives were at risk (usually are if salvage is required such grounding on rocks, loss of propulsion and inability to anchor etc.) would call CG first.
Both this thread and another one currently actively comment on mooring balls you pay for to use. You do have resources to determine their adequacy. I have on occasion recorded my phone call when arranging the use and asked the relevant questions. Do this if things look sketchy for any reason. You need to tell the discussion is recorded. Have called the local harbormaster and asked local rules and about a particular mooring. If necessary I have dived the chain or not used supplied pendant. My problem is we cruise as mom and pop. We get tired. Sometimes there’s no nearby anchorage or nearby marina and it’s getting dark and dangerous to travel given local setting and our fatigue. So we plan for several alternatives as to where to spend the night. Unfortunately sometimes this means a marina. Marinas are our last choice but safety first. Anchoring is our first choice, marinas second and moorings third unless it’s a harbor of refuge with maintained storm certified moorings sized appropriately.

Based upon what I have read above and what I have read about the current boat insurance market in Florida, there is no way I invite my insurer to this "party". I would work with the captain to arrive a number, cut a check for a number between $0 and $5K and get on with my life.