Please explain purchasing a slip

Cold Duck · Aug 22, 2024

There are as many different ways to buy a dock as docks for sale. One has to be very careful. One owner sold docks under an "agreement of sale". You owned but did not have a deed, there was a single deed that the owner held. I have bought and sold property this way but you have to understand the risks. Well, the owner went and borrowed money on the whole property not having to notify the slip owners, then failed to pay the loan off and went bankrupt. All the slip owners lost their interest in their docks as the property was foreclosed by the lender. Just a comment to be wary of how the property title is held. Read the small print.

dhays · Aug 22, 2024

tiltrider1 said:
The real problem is that you only own the dock. You lease the mud lands from the state and you lease the head lands from Delta. Should either of the lessors tire of you, you are left with nothing.

That can be an issue. Our condo marina in Gig Harbor mostly is sitting over land that we own, but small portion is sitting over leased DNR tidal lands. Our Marina was built in 1985 and I think the lease has been renewed once since then as I believe they are about 30 years. I am not sure of that however.

However, in our location, it is highly doubtful that the DNR would chose to not renew the lease. There isn't enough there to be suitable for aquaculture so leasing to the marina is the best use for the state.

tiltrider1 · Aug 23, 2024

dhays said:
That can be an issue. Our condo marina in Gig Harbor mostly is sitting over land that we own, but small portion is sitting over leased DNR tidal lands. Our Marina was built in 1985 and I think the lease has been renewed once since then as I believe they are about 30 years. I am not sure of that however.

However, in our location, it is highly doubtful that the DNR would chose to not renew the lease. There isn't enough there to be suitable for aquaculture so leasing to the marina is the best use for the state.

I believe in your situation you own the headlands. This makes it next to impossible for DNR to deny you a lease renewal.

dhays · Aug 23, 2024

tiltrider1 said:
I believe in your situation you own the headlands. This makes it next to impossible for DNR to deny you a lease renewal.

Yup. That is what I think. And hope, because the slip I own is sitting over the portion that over DNR water.

CaptTom · Aug 23, 2024

Congrats! The co-op / club option is always the best IMHO.

As for leasing the bottom lands, that's true of every marina in the state of Maine. And, yes, they can raise the rent. But it's set for 5-year terms, and it's very unlikely that they're going to shut down every working waterfront facility in the state in my lifetime.

I can't speak to leasing the uplands, but again, every land-owning business (or homeowner) is at the whim of the local municipality. They can raise rates (property tax is like rent) or change the rules any time, putting you out of business (or out of your home.)

I'd imagine leasing land from the state is similar. Terminating everyone's leases would be an economic and political nightmare. Going after just one organization, especially a not-for-profit, seems unlikely.

SteveK · Aug 23, 2024

Cold Duck said:
There are as many different ways to buy a dock as docks for sale. One has to be very careful. One owner sold docks under an "agreement of sale". You owned but did not have a deed, there was a single deed that the owner held. I have bought and sold property this way but you have to understand the risks. Well, the owner went and borrowed money on the whole property not having to notify the slip owners, then failed to pay the loan off and went bankrupt. All the slip owners lost their interest in their docks as the property was foreclosed by the lender. Just a comment to be wary of how the property title is held. Read the small print.

Interesting. Sounds like the agreements for sale were not registered against title for the overall lease holder, if they were then bank would have had to notify and even ask for 1st position.

PNW · Aug 24, 2024

To the comments about DYC, actually we do NOT own the dock this is a MEMBERSHIP CLUB ONLY they made that very clear, we know we don't own anything except a "slot" in the "club" and that slot happens to coincide with a slip number and our membership allows us to live on our boat there and they can't kick us out ever (unless we do something illegal or whatever, clearly, I just mean they are not owned by a mgmt co. or investor who could decide to develop the property another way later). but what that equals is if we ever want to stop paying rent or just want to adventure or just fulfil my dream of live at anchor and travel as a vintage diesel mechanic between Olympia and Alaska keeping analog alive, then we have that set up and ready to go, and if we don't do that and just want to have a sweet boat close to the city in fresh water without being behind the locks then that is good to go. for that value prop, we think this is a decent cost and matches with our goals, like I said YMMV, but just wanted to clear up the "ownership" aspect it is just a concept like a private campground, more of a legal framework for insuring the place really. the people who "run" DYC are just members, elected by the other members, so nobody is interested in anything besides having a functioning marina for themselves and their peers. no commercial or investor point-of-view to worry about.

Thanks for all the comments, I think this is a real interesting thread. Enjoy hearing what others are trying, and definitely not trying to push DYC on anybody, just think it's a place many might not know what is going on at, we never knew about it and both grew up here lol.

-Josh

tiltrider1 · Aug 24, 2024

PNW said:
To the comments about DYC, actually we do NOT own the dock this is a MEMBERSHIP CLUB ONLY they made that very clear, we know we don't own anything except a "slot" in the "club" and that slot happens to coincide with a slip number and our membership allows us to live on our boat there and they can't kick us out ever (unless we do something illegal or whatever, clearly, I just mean they are not owned by a mgmt co. or investor who could decide to develop the property another way later). but what that equals is if we ever want to stop paying rent or just want to adventure or just fulfil my dream of live at anchor and travel as a vintage diesel mechanic between Olympia and Alaska keeping analog alive, then we have that set up and ready to go, and if we don't do that and just want to have a sweet boat close to the city in fresh water without being behind the locks then that is good to go. for that value prop, we think this is a decent cost and matches with our goals, like I said YMMV, but just wanted to clear up the "ownership" aspect it is just a concept like a private campground, more of a legal framework for insuring the place really. the people who "run" DYC are just members, elected by the other members, so nobody is interested in anything besides having a functioning marina for themselves and their peers. no commercial or investor point-of-view to worry about.

Thanks for all the comments, I think this is a real interesting thread. Enjoy hearing what others are trying, and definitely not trying to push DYC on anybody, just think it's a place many might not know what is going on at, we never knew about it and both grew up here lol.

-Joshli

I don't believe you fully understand DYC. As a member, you are partially responsible for the liabilities of the Club. The Head lands are owned by some one who at the end of the Clubs lease can choose to not release and instead redevelop the land. The Club would then be required to dispose of the docks and this cost would be passed to the members as a special assessment.

I believe that such a scenario is unlikely. I am not currently up to speed on who is currently liable for the contaminated soil under the dock that has been preventing the dredging. I have looked into DYC in the past but the unknown liabilities were always greater than the value being presented. I have not looked recently so if the headland lease has been extended out 50 years and there is a permit issued and a reasonable quote for the dredging then I could reasonably determine the value of a slip. Until then those who join are speculating.

PNW · Sep 8, 2024

tiltrider1 said:
I don't believe you fully understand DYC. As a member, you are partially responsible for the liabilities of the Club. The Head lands are owned by some one who at the end of the Clubs lease can choose to not release and instead redevelop the land. The Club would then be required to dispose of the docks and this cost would be passed to the members as a special assessment.

I believe that such a scenario is unlikely. I am not currently up to speed on who is currently liable for the contaminated soil under the dock that has been preventing the dredging. I have looked into DYC in the past but the unknown liabilities were always greater than the value being presented. I have not looked recently so if the headland lease has been extended out 50 years and there is a permit issued and a reasonable quote for the dredging then I could reasonably determine the value of a slip. Until then those who join are speculating.

Have some aphorisms:

A market without speculators would be an illiquid market.
Those who think they are not speculating are simply unaware of the bets they are placing.
Making no decision is also making a decision.
Never oversell the sold, and never sell the unsellable.

Don L · Sep 8, 2024

Duke 239 said:
How does this compare with simply paying for a slip in a marina?

It makes sense for a lot of people, especially cruisers. You always know you are going to have a slip when you come back. You get to rent it out when you are away. You have more control than just paying a marina. There are more and more boats every year, but less slips (back to you know you will have a slip). The slip mostly appreciates.

Last year the marina I was in decided to raise the rate 30%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That plus there "will tere be a slip when I come back after 6 months" had me looking to buy a slip!

Sna · Sep 9, 2024

tiltrider1 said:
I don't believe you fully understand DYC. As a member, you are partially responsible for the liabilities of the Club. The Head lands are owned by some one who at the end of the Clubs lease can choose to not release and instead redevelop the land. The Club would then be required to dispose of the docks and this cost would be passed to the members as a special assessment.

I believe that such a scenario is unlikely. I am not currently up to speed on who is currently liable for the contaminated soil under the dock that has been preventing the dredging. I have looked into DYC in the past but the unknown liabilities were always greater than the value being presented. I have not looked recently so if the headland lease has been extended out 50 years and there is a permit issued and a reasonable quote for the dredging then I could reasonably determine the value of a slip. Until then those who join are speculating.

Just some clarification on DYC

1) The lease was extended 1.5 years ago until 2052. The lease is solely with a private company, not any government agency (though the docks do extend partway into port of seattle waters). Also, landlord isn’t Delta.

2) The club does own the docks and would be required to remove them at the end of the lease, but if the club has no money I’m not sure there’s a means to come after the individual members (language in the lease says “In no event shall any officers, directors or members of Tenant have any liability under this Lease.”)

3) The dredging wasn’t prevented by contamination. Yes, it exists from the condition of the river and ads to the cost, but dredging permitting process was postponed until there was a new lease so it has only recently started. The lease specifically says the club isn’t required to dredge or clean up normal contamination at end of lease.

That said, there are risks in the DYC slip “ownership” that it could just go away at some point in the future — end of the lease in 28 years, some big disaster, or dredging that becomes cost prohibitive or impossible. But, I think those risks are generally relfected into the relatively low cost of the membership. Not sure you can “buy” a 40-50’ slip for $20-30k (inclusive of 2025 dredging costs) in Puget Sound area (plus $400-600 per month dues).

PNW · Sep 10, 2024

Sna said:
Just some clarification on DYC

1) The lease was extended 1.5 years ago until 2052. The lease is solely with a private company, not any government agency (though the docks do extend partway into port of seattle waters). Also, landlord isn’t Delta.

2) The club does own the docks and would be required to remove them at the end of the lease, but if the club has no money I’m not sure there’s a means to come after the individual members (language in the lease says “In no event shall any officers, directors or members of Tenant have any liability under this Lease.”)

3) The dredging wasn’t prevented by contamination. Yes, it exists from the condition of the river and ads to the cost, but dredging permitting process was postponed until there was a new lease so it has only recently started. The lease specifically says the club isn’t required to dredge or clean up normal contamination at end of lease.

That said, there are risks in the DYC slip “ownership” that it could just go away at some point in the future — end of the lease in 28 years, some big disaster, or dredging that becomes cost prohibitive or impossible. But, I think those risks are generally relfected into the relatively low cost of the membership. Not sure you can “buy” a 40-50’ slip for $20-30k (inclusive of 2025 dredging costs) in Puget Sound area (plus $400-600 per month dues).

Well said! Was trying to make time to write all that up by I'm currently alternating my alternators. Cheers Sna

nvespa · Sep 12, 2024

slowgoesit said:
Ken, LOL! Unfortunately for you, it is in central Florida, fresh water, but a day's + travel either East or West to get to the either of the large lakes of bitter water . . .

Where in Central Florida? Looking at a seasonal lease in Port Canaveral for this winter, but this sounds interesting. LOA 59'10" Beam 16'8" Max Draft 5'9"

slowgoesit · Sep 12, 2024

nvespa, PM sent

Please explain purchasing a slip

Cold Duck

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dhays

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tiltrider1

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dhays

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CaptTom

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SteveK

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PNW

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tiltrider1

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PNW

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Don L

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Sna

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PNW

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nvespa

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slowgoesit

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