Older Vessels

Seem to come across a few older vessels that, at least online, look quite clean and in decent condition.

For instance, a 1978 Defever 43' for sale on here.

What is the realistic lifespan of these older vessels?

Not necessarily the electrical / mechanical systems, as I know they essentially require constant maintenance, but the structure of the vessel .... hull, decks, etc?

thanks for any advice!

Fiberglass isn’t known to deteriorate except the surface finish. It is the wood things that do like the core in a deck, wood trim, wood in stringers. I have seen 50 year old boats that were like new but that isn’t the norm. Usually the lack of proper maintenance is what ruins a boat. Having said that you can have a boat that old and have a lot of trouble getting it insured. So before you buy make sure you can insure it. Get a proper survey too.

Comodave said:

Fiberglass isn’t known to deteriorate except the surface finish. It is the wood things that do like the core in a deck, wood trim, wood in stringers. I have seen 50 year old boats that were like new but that isn’t the norm. Usually the lack of proper maintenance is what ruins a boat. Having said that you can have a boat that old and have a lot of trouble getting it insured. So before you buy make sure you can insure it. Get a proper survey too.

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thanks for the advice

I did hear insurance is harder to come by on these older vessels and many marinas don't want you around without it

And some marinas still won’t take an older boat even with insurance. Check before committing to buy. Your area may be fine with older boats or it may be worse.

Comodave said:

And some marinas still won’t take an older boat even with insurance. Check before committing to buy. Your area may be fine with older boats or it may be worse.

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Thank you ---understood.

somewhat off point here but as to insurance, wonder if the carrier gives me credit for the 40 years of experience although all on boats b/w 16' and 28' --- last ten years or so been insured with Progressive

Capt Pappy said:

somewhat off point here but as to insurance, wonder if the carrier gives me credit for the 40 years of experience although all on boats b/w 16' and 28' --- last ten years or so been insured with Progressive

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Nope. It helps with qualifying for insurance, but then it comes down to the boat. I will be having that issue with my steel boat. After so many years, insurance companies will not insure steel boats. They don't care if it is in immaculate condition.

Also, on older boats, I would be most concerned about the condition of the core material. Every screw/bolt is a possible entry point for water ingress resulting in rot. Make sure a good moisture meter is used for the survey.

Mac2 said:

Nope. It helps with qualifying for insurance, but then it comes down to the boat. I will be having that issue with my steel boat. After so many years, insurance companies will not insure steel boats. They don't care if it is in immaculate condition.

Also, on older boats, I would be most concerned about the condition of the core material. Every screw/bolt is a possible entry point for water ingress resulting in rot. Make sure a good moisture meter is used for the survey.

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good points, thanks

and i am sure these recent storms ain't helping with insurance coverage. case in point, USAA raised our homeowners premium so high, auto too but not as bad, that we tried to switch carriers this summer and some said they would not even write any Texas homeowner policies, period

The losses in Texas have made homeowners insurance more difficult and much more expensive to obtain. Your boating experience may get you a discount but won’t help get insurance on an older boat. Some carriers have an age cutoff and they won’t go older. There are still some companies thet write older boats but it is becoming an issue. So if you are looking to buy an older boat make sure before you buy that you can get insurance. That doesn’t mean that in a couple of years you will still be able to get coverage. Who knows?

@Capt Pappy you might not like hearing this but if you are interested in buying an older 40-50 year old vessel then I'd suggest you head up to the Pacific NW.

You'll find boats up here which have been kept covered in boathouses for the last 20 years and those are about the only ones whose wood core decks haven't grown soft spots and deckhouses haven't been plagued by leaking windows.

Of course the moment you take them out of the boathouse then the moisture intrusion starts, but you can get ahead of that by rebedding absolutely everything on the exterior and removing the teak decks (or recaulk them.... not sure which is more horrible).

Then it's a long cruise back to Texas.

Unless you are into old things like This Old House the main reason to buy an older boat is price. But if you can fit a newer boat into your budget then that is what I would do. I have bought and refurbished many older boats mostly because I loved working on them but things are changing in the boating arena. Things like insurance, dockage etc make owning older boats much more complex. My advice is if you do indeed want an older boat do your research, and then more research, before you let your heart get you in too deep.

I agree about the boathouse thing. Mine is an older boat and the deck leaks. But it only leaks if it's outside in the rain and that ain't often 'cause her home is a covered berth -

Capt Pappy said:

Seem to come across a few older vessels that, at least online, look quite clean and in decent condition.

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I have yet to inspect a vessel for sale that looked as good in person as it did in the online images / description. (Except, of course, the boats of my own that I advertised online)!

Greetings,
Mr. C. When perusing boat porn on line IF there are no images of ER spaces, I would never be interested in even looking at it. To me, the overall condition of the ER is a fairly accurate indication of how well it was actually maintained in spite of how good the rest of the vessel may look in the "glamour" shots.

@Capt Pappy
As the owner of an older boat (1976 Hatteras 48LRC) I agree that you need to check insurance and berthing first. Same on any boat, regardless of age. Just part of the boat buying process now. One marina in San Diego told me they now will not accept applications for boats older than 10 years. When space is limited you can make your own rules and still stay full. I hope this comes back to bite them but perhaps never will.

There are some jobs on old boats that are a pain but not crazy expensive, some that are easy and some that are hard AND expensive. The areas where I would really focus are:
1) Engines, the most expensive item to change out on most boats. Usually not a big problem if the boat has been reasonably maintained. Check cost and availability of parts and if there is a good mechanic in your area.
2) Hull/Decking: This can either be impractical to repair (economic) or take a lot of time (or both!). An older boat is higly likely to have some issues such as some blisters or rot in decks, If a wood core below the waterline I would be unlikely to take the chance. If decks are soft in multiple, extensive areas probably a no-go. But otherwise not huge turnoffs for me.
3) Big systems such as air-conditioning: On a boat like mine there are 4 units. I could actually replace the engines for less than this is going to cost. But the original units lasted 40 years and while I don't expect to see that service life, with the new self contained units they will be very easy and relatively inexpensive to replace.
4) Running gear: Not the most expensive items but very critical and can get into the weeds if you have to start tearing things out
5) Electronics are generally outdate the week after you get them installed. For <$10K you can get a very nice setup with GPS, Display. depth and RADAR. Be careful and only get what you need. A 16 inch screen is nice but a 10-12" tablet is likely more than enough.

The good news is most anything can be repaired or replaced and you end up with most of the functionality (perhaps almost all unless you are talking about a very advanced new boat) at a cost of perhaps 15-20% of new. And once you do all these repairs if you keep up with maintenance they can last many years or even decades.

Case in point: A Nordhavn 51 will run you about $1.5Mil and if you follow Awanui NZ you will learn having a new boat is NOT a trouble free experience. In CA you would pay another $105K in sales tax and about $15K-$25K in property tax every year. Even a newer "lesser" boat such as a Helmsman will run $500K+. Both of these are fantastic, beautiful boats but when looking at capabilities I would argue my 1975 Hatteras 48LRC is a fair match and at a much lower cost point. Parts for my Ford Lehman engines are probably <25% of the cost of the equivalent on a new engine. Trawler speed is trawler speed so if you are OK with 7-10 knots my non-turbo, non-electronic engines are well suited and probably will run for the useful life of me and perhaps the next owner given typical coastal navigation use. Low cost to rebuild if that comes around and not too many wear parts that could be totally obsolete.

Now don't get me wrong as I love new boats too and if money were no object I might prefer a newer boat (something 3-10 years old). But I just would not enjoy boating as much (OK I could not afford it) if I had to sink $1Mil +/- into a boat. I do enjoy some of the work to keep an old boat current so that is part of my overall boating experience. Some projects I hated to do (new hoses and toilets) but I saved $5K+ and it really was not that much work. I also know how/where everything is so if maintenance is necessary it is something I can handle.

When I buy an older boat (have owned many that are well over 10-20 years old) I do a spreadsheet and itemize all the systems and a rough estimate of replacement cost of the systems. Also a list of what I think should be added (ex. LFP batteries to me are a must have if you anchor out and easily pay for themselves vs. Generator costs). I build a timeline to see what is necessary now vs down the road and figure a worse case scenario if everything became critical in a short period of time. In general I would suggest that if you buy an older boat assume in the worse case you would spend 1x the purchase price in the first 2-3 years. But of course many variables so this is an extremely broad "rule of thumb". If that number scares you then you probably should not buy an older boat. Even with a newer boat if out of warranty I think expecting 25% upcosts near term is not unreasonable. On a newer boat with a Cummins I think the intercoolers can be $5K each. Even if serviceable I think that would still be $2K+ each. So new does not equate to saving money.

At some point down the road I might be selling my boat as I recently purchased a 2011 Greenline 33. The only reason for the change is I just cannot get a 50 ft slip at our yacht club but immediately got into a 40 ft slip. For now I am keeping both boats, one in San Diego and the Hatteras in the Delta. They are totally different and I find reasons to use them both. Unlike the typical owner who just defers costs for a year or two before selling (thus the reason for the big estimated repairs/improvements) I am spending a lot to insure it is around for the next 50 years. Maybe I will own it for awhile and I want to enjoy it. I know I will never recover the costs of the work but that is OK.

I am writing this here in the boat yard after some major upfits and repairs, leaving tomorrow for my slip in the Delta. Not the least of which is 4 new ACs! It has been 5 years since I purchased Freedom. It was a very solid boat but there was a lot or room for cosmetic repairs and improvements. I assumed I would have to do the ACs right away and surprisingly all 4 made it until this year. One finally failed and while it could have been repaired it was time to bite the bullet. I got 4+ years to defer this so that was a win. Looking back I have probably spent well over 100% of the purchase price to get to where she is and that was with a LOT of sweat equity. Probably would be 150-200% if I hired it all out. Every system will have been either replaced or thoroughly renewed. Still some cosmetics to deal with but she looks good from 50 feet away and is built like a tank and very dependable. All the comforts of a new boat too at perhaps 20% of the cost.

Not sure if this is helpful but just wanted to share a bit of my perspective as a serial "old boat" owner. Good luck to you with whatever you buy!

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. C. When perusing boat porn on line IF there are no images of ER spaces, I would never be interested in even looking at it. To me, the overall condition of the ER is a fairly accurate indication of how well it was actually maintained in spite of how good the rest of the vessel may look in the "glamour" shots.

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Absolutely, no engine room photos then I pass. My thought process is what are they afraid to show?

Delta Riverat said:

I agree about the boathouse thing. Mine is an older boat and the deck leaks. But it only leaks if it's outside in the rain and that ain't often 'cause her home is a covered berth -

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But remember that the water that gets into the deck to leak inside is still there when you put the boat in the boathouse and continues to cause rot and damage, unless you have no wood in the deck core.

Decks are nice and hard, no soft spots. Leak happens when water pools on aft deck and runs into aft cabin where it sits on formica covered cabinets. Have towels ready at all times, only needed when washing deck or after a strong west wind storm.

Yeah, just another item on the list. But hey, I have a roof over my boat -

been off the site for a while, working too much, but just wanted to say I appreciate all the apt advice!

truly is a welcoming board here -- thank you

Comodave said:

Absolutely, no engine room photos then I pass. My thought process is what are they afraid to show?

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i caught on to that as well --- dirty, rusty and corroded engine rooms don't look like a good start.

and no photos at all, get you thinking that what lies below

Pictures can be worthless too. Lots of rattle can engine rebuilds out there.

Without knowledge of the owner or tons of paperwork describing maintenance, one has to assume even brand new engines may need replacement or major rebuild within years of purchase.

Rust and a dirty engine room are NOT necessarily a lack of proper maintenance...however a spotless one might also come with all that paperwork I am suggesting. If the engine room is dirty and rusty to a limited degree, could be a boat that is used heavily but not necessarily unloved. Surface rust and grime are no different than dirty, hard working hands...nothing a little soap and water can't fix without the need of a surgeon.

makes sense, one could just recently paint over a worn down engine, but sure like to see those clean engine rooms and moreover, the surrounding components and their connections such as the batteries terminals

admittedly, on much smaller boats, but with the exception of a cigarette type boat in the early 90's, I did not tend to our boats very well at all. But the last two... I spend more time cleaning than boating and always perform the yearly maintenance ---- some in the neighborhood get a kick outta me washing the anchor

psneeld said:

Pictures can be worthless too. Lots of rattle can engine rebuilds out there.

Without knowledge of the owner or tons of paperwork describing maintenance, one has to assume even brand new engines may need replacement or major rebuild within years of purchase.

Rust and a dirty engine room are NOT necessarily a lack of proper maintenance...however a spotless one might also come with all that paperwork I am suggesting. If the engine room is dirty and rusty to a limited degree, could be a boat that is used heavily but not necessarily unloved. Surface rust and grime are no different than dirty, hard working hands...nothing a little soap and water can't fix without the need of a surge

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Two items that Ready above didn't mention on older boats that are often problematic and can run into LOTS of $$ are failing fuel tanks, and windows! Both can be very expensive to fix, even if you do a lot of the work yourself. Fuel tanks can run 30-40k to replace if someone else does all the work.

That said, we have two boats, one is a 1982, and the other is a 1980.

thanks again for all the advice...

Appears so much to consider with these older vessels, especially the most important issues and in my mind, in this order (somewhat getting up there in age and seems as if time is more precious than ever):

>time
>money
>insurance

We are also considering sailboats, though never sailed --- did run into an old HS friend at a funeral however who sails and recently purchased an older Cat, 27' Heavenly Twins, that's been around the world opening up the possibility of learning a lot. In any event, also watched my fair share of youtube sailing videos and this one capt goes on and on about whether one wants to commit to a ton of time in the boat yard fixing up an older vessel.

On the other hand, to have sufficient time to dedicate to such a large vessel, we pretty much have to give up our business (very time intensive on my behalf, scared to end it, but really need out of this office).

So of course have to be extremely careful with funds

have seen a fair share of ostensibly 'ready for the great loop' in the $200k range but the wife seems vastly against spending that kind of money on a 40 yr old vessel, which is why i opened this thread

slowgoesit said:

Two items that Ready above didn't mention on older boats that are often problematic and can run into LOTS of $$ are failing fuel tanks, and windows! Both can be very expensive to fix, even if you do a lot of the work yourself. Fuel tanks can run 30-40k to replace if someone else does all the work.

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Boating is definitely one of those activities where it helps to be a handyman. If you can weld together and pressure test your own fuel tanks, and aren’t afraid to remove or rebuild engines, then this hobby is for you!

A couple observations from the owner of a 1971 Hatteras. If you can get insurance, really like the boat, and have a place to keep it, there are a few basics that you'll be subject to.

Unless you buy the boat at a very low price, you're 'under water' money-wise at the get-go. Any money you invest in the boat will probably be unrecoverable on resale, based on its age and potential buyers will be scarce. This doesn't necessarily mean not to buy an old boat, but plan on getting any return on your investment through the use and enjoyment of it. This means the boat is a long-term hold or maybe your last boat, which is the justification for throwing money at it. My goal with my boat is that when I get rid of it, the use I've have with it will justify owning it. It has given me many experiences, and Alaska trips. The boat will owe me nothing at the end.

If you are planning on the loop, you can pick up say a mainship 34 in really nice condition for a VERY reasonable price. One of the members here just sold his for $32k, and it was in turn-key condition. Very capable boat for inland and coastal waters, nice amount of room for two, and VERY reasonably priced. It's a thought . . .

How prevalent is the insurance requirement at marinas / docks?

Might be willing to go insurance ‘bare’ to a certain extent

Mako said:

@Capt Pappy you might not like hearing this but if you are interested in buying an older 40-50 year old vessel then I'd suggest you head up to the Pacific NW.

You'll find boats up here which have been kept covered in boathouses for the last 20 years and those are about the only ones whose wood core decks haven't grown soft spots and deckhouses haven't been plagued by leaking windows.

Of course the moment you take them out of the boathouse then the moisture intrusion starts, but you can get ahead of that by rebedding absolutely everything on the exterior and removing the teak decks (or recaulk them.... not sure which is more horrible).

Then it's a long cruise back to Texas.

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used to live up there in early 80’s - we actually cut out teeth on a 24’ Searay in lake Washington and the puget sound, but yes, that’s a long cruise back to the GOM.

Capt Pappy said:

How prevalent is the insurance requirement at marinas / docks?

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100% requirement (or nearly so). Many require a letter from your insurance company naming the marina as additionally insured.

Liability-only (including oil spill) would do the trick but in my experience, not commonly available and isn't much of a savings.

Peter

Peter, I have disagree with your statement about Liability only insurance.
We just obtained liability only insurance for our boat earlier this month. Annual premium through State Farm was $176.75 vs the $8,160.00 we were quoted for "Full" coverage with only insured the boat for $100k, and had ridiculous deductibles and navigational area restrictions . . . .

On being asked for proof of insurance, we've been asked if staying for longer than 1 month, but otherwise, no one appears to care. That's been our experience anyway, but we don't have a deep well of experience to draw from, as we prefer to anchor out anyway, more from a peace and quiet standpoint, rather than a cost perspective.