A rant, I'm sure most will understand.

When you decommission wires, pull them out. If it's not practical at least disconnect them from the power source and terminate properly. If, for some reason, you want to preserve the run for future use then label both ends after disconnecting from the power source. Never just cut a chunk out of the middle and call it good. Ever. It's a good idea to disconnect DC (-) or AC neutral as well. I had more than one surprise when a connected but dead end (-) or neutral hits a hot.

Follow color codes. If you can't label what it is DC (+) or (-), AC hot, neutral, ground. If you can't get the supplies to follow color codes, either current or original, then at least be consistent.

There. I had to get that off my chest. No I feel better, then you for listening.

Ummm......dare I ask what the backstory is that prompted this post now???

Peter

I hate it when people take short cuts on decommissioning wires. I always disconnect at both ends and then label both ends with a note as to where the other end can be found if I choose not to remove the wire.

LOL...Its amazing what you find. Its actually kind of interesting because if enough is left over you can surmise what was there...and in some cases what happened.

I pulled about 15 lbs of unused wires when I rewired 3/4 of the boat.

I had a very large shunt mounted to a stantion below deck near the start battery bank. When I redid the battery and inverter wire runs I was cataloging existing wires. The shunt had some 2/0 wire coming off each end so I attempted to follow it. Both ends went to the middle of large bundles about three feet away and were just lopped off. I pulled the wire and shunt out. I also found the same size power wire not connected. After some additional work and cataloging, it was clear the shunt and large wire was from an old inverter/charger that was mounted on the back bulkhead. Obviously the inverter was long gone. So they just dyked the large wires to remove the inverter and tucked them in..lol.

mvweebles said:

Ummm......dare I ask what the backstory is that prompted this post now???

Peter

Click to expand...

A relatively new to me old boat. November 23, boat is 1986. Been working through a number of electrical puzzles as anyone with an older boat will need to do. I want to install solar on the pilot house roof. I need to find the path from there to the house bank. It's well hidden. So, find a wire that is on one end or the other and start following. Nothing unusual in that. Along the way this AM I found a 4/0 cable with a 6" chunk cut out mid-run. I think, hope, it is a DC (-) cable, not sure yet. A 12 AWG red wire just cut, followed it back to one of the DC (+) busses. Yes, I said one of. Along with that a 12 AWG black wire back to the DC (-) buss. The red still had it's fuse in, still connected to the (+) buss. An unused 9 pin serial cable. 3 coax antenna leads going nowhere. Numerous audio cables going nowhere. That's just this AM.

The crowing glory was found before this season's cruising. Output from the stbd engine's alternator to a 120 AMP thermal breaker to a 60 AMP Maxi fuse labeled "Watermaker". Blown of course. Supposedly feeding the house bank through one of the DC (+) busses. At the same time that was uncovered if you want to see a puzzle that truly had me stumped check out this thread. Start / House / Combine conundrum. Took far too long to get the start and house banks charging correctly.

Lesser puzzles are fore example changing out salon flourescent lighting to LED I found confusing DC wiring. Sometimes black was (+) and sometimes (-).

It's been a continuing battle since I took possession, I don't see any end in sight. The trigger for today's rant was hours of crawling around in the engine room and under the dash. Asking my old arthritic joints to do things that I will pay for later. Getting my size 12s stuck in places I had to use my hands to extricate.

At some point in the past the boat was "re-wired". AC and DC. Lovely new blue seas panels were used. Much of the labling is nonsense. Many of the old wired are simply cut and left dangling, too many are hot. Mostly the rewire is butt joints from the blue seas to the old wires.

A complete boat re-wire is the only thing that will really fix this mess. I don't have a big enough checkbook for that.

As my sweetie will as when I get home. "Are you a little fussy?"

tiltrider1 and Barking Sands, like my post title says, I'm sure most will understand. Far too many of us have been through these miseries. I'm just one of many.

I replaced a friend's inverter and found that whoever installed it connected the start and house banks together with a big 4/0 cable.

On our last boat Iwas doing some rewiring. I found a #6 cable pair that was just cutoff under the brow of the flybridge. Got the volt meter and they were hot. Tracking them down they went to the house bank were directly connected to the batteries without any overcurrent protection. Dangerous.

Portage_Bay said:

When you decommission wires, pull them out. If it's not practical at least disconnect them from the power source and terminate properly. If, for some reason, you want to preserve the run for future use then label both ends after disconnecting from the power source. Never just cut a chunk out of the middle and call it good.

Click to expand...

The term I came up with was "Orphan Wires". Wasted a lot of time pulling orphans out of chases. Worst was looking for an autopilot compass that had been removed, but not the cable and connector.

I feel your pain!

Ted

Portage_Bay said:

A complete boat re-wire is the only thing that will really fix this mess. I don't have a big enough checkbook for that.

As my sweetie will as when I get home. "Are you a little fussy?"

Click to expand...

You don't need a big checkbook to fix the issues, just your time, perseverance and the a few dollars well spent over the long haul will likely make things right.

To answer your sweetie, Yes I am fussy, as you are worth every effort I make and every dollar I spend to make things safe. Nothing is more important.

How can there be any argument? What is the alternative?

Our boat's previous owner was a robotics engineer so my boat is better than most, but even so - we had it disassembled and shipped cross- country so the helm had to be removed and reconnected. The marinas on both ends did a good job generally, but about 10 wires out of 50 changed colors mid-run. I know, they didn't have one of those big carts with a bank of wiring spools to match every color and pattern under the sun. I get it - but then at least mark them! Either label that black wire "s/b turquoise blue" or label what it feeds. I have the original wiring diagram for the boat. The colors are all still intact in the engine bay, but get up to the helm and it's all scrambled.

Following advice on this forum though I did get one of those wiring tracers. Makes a huge difference, what a help straightening out the colors.

kthoennes said:

Following advice on this forum though I did get one of those wiring tracers. Makes a huge difference, what a help straightening out the colors.
Following advice on this forum though I did get one of those wiring tracers. Makes a huge difference, what a help straightening out the colors.

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Uh… “wiring tracers”? Never heard of such a thing. I have owned my boat since 2016 and there are still wires and relays that I’ve not been able to figure out.

Time for me to do some searching.

Edit: OK I did some searching and as is typical for me, am completely confused. I saw some wire tracers that looked very good (Klein AT450) but also expensive. Any suggestions for a less expensive tool that could help me trace the DC wires that I still haven’t been able to follow on the boat? Or if something like the Klein is what is needed, any suggested alternatives?

Portage_Bay said:

When you decommission wires, pull them out. If it's not practical at least disconnect them from the power source and terminate properly. If, for some reason, you want to preserve the run for future use then label both ends after disconnecting from the power source. Never just cut a chunk out of the middle and call it good. Ever. It's a good idea to disconnect DC (-) or AC neutral as well. I had more than one surprise when a connected but dead end (-) or neutral hits a hot.

Follow color codes. If you can't label what it is DC (+) or (-), AC hot, neutral, ground. If you can't get the supplies to follow color codes, either current or original, then at least be consistent.

There. I had to get that off my chest. No I feel better, then you for listening.

Click to expand...

I have to give you full support for bringing the subject up.
We bought an ex hireboat and their maintainence was abysmal, if anything went wrong on the electrical systems they just disconnected one end and left it all in place.
It took us a full afternoon to identify all redundant wiring, we removed 3 full carrier bags of redundant wiring.

I kept track of all the legacy equipment I removed from our boat in the first 6 months after we took possession of her. Wiring alone weighed in at 106 lbs at the scrap yard. Equipment was about 350 lbs. That included two old refrigeration compressors for freezers/fridges no long installed, as well as lots of other misc equipment.

What was operational was in reasonably good condition, just the "orphan" wires (by the way, I like that term, and will use it from now on) that drove me nuts. 4/0 wires from ER to main electrical bay that were cut off, and a BEAR to remove. They tie wrapped all the wires before they pulled them though the cable chases . . . .

Some of the orphan wires WERE labeled at each end, but most were not.

I found one DC terminal block in the ER that ran straight to the main 12vdc bus, with no circuit protection.

All the AC wiring was wired with three wires (hot, neutral, and ground), but the ground wire was cut off short in the boxes of all the AC plugs, not connected to the outlets . . . .

One thing I did note. The boat was completed in 1982, and there is absolutely no corrosion on any of the bare copper wire ends! Awesome!

Too many people connect wires, and "Hey! The light turns on, it MUST be wired correctly, right?" paying no regard to (+) and (-) in dc, or neutral and ground in AC circuits. Scary!

When pulling orphan wires, I often graft on a length of mason's string (bright pink). The string can then be labelled as to where it goes. That way, if I need to run a wire in the future I have a pull string set up.

Unfortunately, most of my dead wires are cheap untinned household stuff. I have to throw it out before getting tempted to reuse it.

I always liked the term "abandoned in place." Orphaned is fine too. I didn't weigh the wiring I removed when I bought my boat, but it was more than one trip to the dumpster with a full dock cart.

kthoennes said:

Following advice on this forum though I did get one of those wiring tracers. Makes a huge difference, what a help straightening out the colors.

Click to expand...

I have a wire tracer, a good one by Fluke. Too often it does not help. The biggest collection of abandoned DC wires tie into a large DC buss which then ties into the ship's main DC buss. When I try to ring out a wire nearly every DC (+) wire on the boat carries the signal. Any hints on how to use it more effectively greatly appreciated.

Main ship had a standard wire bundle installed that included many options that were not installed. So I have complete wiring for a gen set not installed. On the other hand if I decide to install a gen set, all the wiring is in place lol!

Portage_Bay said:

I have a wire tracer, a good one by Fluke. Too often it does not help. The biggest collection of abandoned DC wires tie into a large DC buss which then ties into the ship's main DC buss. When I try to ring out a wire nearly every DC (+) wire on the boat carries the signal. Any hints on how to use it more effectively greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

Have you tried to disconnect the DC buss from the main DC buss to limit to that group. Now without D+ in the tail end, ground that wire you are trying to trace to create a closed loop.

SteveK said:

Have you tried to disconnect the DC buss from the main DC buss to limit to that group. Now without D+ in the tail end, ground that wire you are trying to trace to create a closed loop.

Click to expand...

Tank you. I'll give that a try.

Portage_Bay said:

Tank you. I'll give that a try.

Click to expand...

afterthought, while it will work, you will need to disconnect a wire at a time from the buss anyway as you will still get tone on the others as the signal will be picked up in all wires on the buss.

SteveK said:

afterthought, while it will work, you will need to disconnect a wire at a time from the buss anyway as you will still get tone on the others as the signal will be picked up in all wires on the buss.

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Unfortunately you're right. Gonna be a lot of work.

Cold Duck said:

Main ship had a standard wire bundle installed that included many options that were not installed. So I have complete wiring for a gen set not installed. On the other hand if I decide to install a gen set, all the wiring is in place lol!

Click to expand...

You're right, same with mine. I remember when we sea trialed the boat I kept hitting the trim tab switch to see if I could feel any difference, any effect. Couldn't feel a thing so I assumed they didn't work. Turns out the boat didn't have trim tabs, never did, nothing on the transom. Mainship still installed the switch and wiring though.

So anyone with recommendations for a wiring tracer?

Perseverance & a loud Ohm meter.

Here's a low cost tool that can help.

I find back pulling can be problematic. Most of the wires run on my boat are wrapped around the wire tie and can't be pulled. I cut each end flush, shrink a tiny bit of heat shrink on each end to seal it. Then tie them together in a loose overhand knot and tuck them away.

Shrew said:

I find back pulling can be problematic. Most of the wires run on my boat are wrapped around the wire tie and can't be pulled. I cut each end flush, shrink a tiny bit of heat shrink on each end to seal it. Then tie them together in a loose overhand knot and tuck them away.

Click to expand...

I do similar and with usable wires tag the ends in case I can make use later