New Live Aboard- Staying Warm & Dry on the Chesapeake?

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proudsailor

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
87
Location
USA
Vessel Name
La Barca Beulah
Vessel Make
DeFever 44 OC
We've moved aboard our DeFever 44 and living in Baltimore this winter (retirement and points south are next year!). Three old cruisair units, a dehumidifier, radiator type heater- what else? We plan to:
  • Weather strip our leaky doors/hatches
  • Indoor window clear insulation kit
  • Heated mattress pads
  • Cover engine room vents (when not underway)
  • Considering a portable engine room heater- any recs?
Not sure how cold bay temps get to make cruisair units ineffective. Should we also consider engine room heater? Recommendations? Although would love diesel heat, no plans as we think our winter stays in colder climes are soon over and not worth the expense. Appreciate the collective wisdom of this group and anything else we should/could do. We do not plan to winterize engines as we're hoping that some warmer days would allow for cruising.

Thanks!
Mark
 
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Be careful with mattress heating pads as they can void warranty and damage foam mattresses popular nowadays for boats/RVs as they can be compressed to fit through narrow boat doorways.

I had a fairly nice one fail in about 3 years that I can only attribute to the pad, the next one I got rid of the pad and it was fine the day I sold the boat 5 or so years later.

As far as diesel heaters, remember even snow birding (did it for 8 years) that it can be below freezing all the way to mid Florida. If planning to anchor out a lot, unless you love running your genset all night, diesel heaters are really nice....at least the Wallas I had was GREAT! (just expensive that was worth every penny).
 
Welcome to year round Baltimore boat living. In answering the question on your reverse cycle HAVC units it depends on the winter. Baltimore Harbor is right on the line. Some winters the water temps don’t fall below the high 30’s, other years it will settle in the high 20’s/low 30’s for weeks at a time. Most have some form of electric resistance heaters for the cold snaps.

As far as winterizing the engines it really depends on your usage. Those who never leave the dock in the winter generally always winterize their engines. Those of us who boat year round often use a heater as needed and winterize if/when it gets below freezing for more than a few days. Just remember, you can buy a lot of pink antifreeze for the cost of replacing a cracked block.

John
 
Agree with the above having wintered aboard in Annapolis and South Jersey areas all or part of the winter. from the late 90's to 2018.

Was also the USCG Ice Patrol liaison from USCG AirSta Cape May for years for the Chesapeake during the 90's and kept tabs on the ice line in the Northern Chesapeake. So know it does come in cycles.
 
We've moved aboard our DeFever 44 and living in Baltimore this winter (retirement and points south are next year!). Three old cruisair units, a dehumidifier, radiator type heater- what else? We plan to:
  • Weather strip our leaky doors/hatches
  • Indoor window clear insulation kit
  • Heated mattress pads
  • Cover engine room vents (when not underway)
  • Considering a portable engine room heater- any recs?
Not sure how cold bay temps get to make cruisair units ineffective. Should we also consider engine room heater? Recommendations? Although would love diesel heat, no plans as we think our winter stays in colder climes are soon over and not worth the expense. Appreciate the collective wisdom of this group and anything else we should/could do. We do not plan to winterize engines as we're hoping that some warmer days would allow for cruising.

Thanks!
Mark
If you have 50 amp 220 volt and a block heater on one engine, it's pretty simple to turn on and off one block heater on the coldest periods. Doesn't take much to keep the engine room above freezing. With twin 30 amp shorepower, it's a much greater percentage of available power.

With water cooled reverse cycle air conditioners, water flow is king. In late January of 2016 I took my boat South. The boat basin in Crisfield MD went below 32 degrees the night before I left. Slush was forming in the brackish water. While the AC units never froze up, heat had diminished to the point where electric heaters produced more heat per amp. At 35 degrees the heat was probably less than half of what it was normally. My units had 7 gallons per minute of raw water flow for a 12,000 BTU units. I would plan on periods where your reverse cycle AC units aren't going to work.

Ted
 
I have a couple of questions for you Mark,

Do you have 30, dual 30 or 220/50 amp power on your boat?

Does your marina leave any domestic water on over the winter? In other words how are you going to get water to your boat?

Does your marina keep docks snow/ice free in winter?

Weather permitting does your marina offer in slip pump outs over winter?

John
 
Agree with the above having wintered in Annapolis and South Jersey areas all or part of the winter.

Was also the USCG Ice Patrol liaison from USCG AirSta Cape May for years for the Chesapeake during the 90's and kept tabs on the ice line in the Northern Chesapeake. So know it does come in cycles.
Then you got smart and went south in winter. Lol

John
 
I lived in Annapolis (just south of Baltimore) for a few years. The creeks would freeze over for about a month each year. A seawater cooled/heated heat pump will also freeze up in those condition, so you need to plan for another heat source.

I assume your “radiator” is a bus heater type and heated with engine coolant. That won’t do you any good.

The only real solution during that freeze up period is to use 2-3 electric space heaters, but as noted above your AC system may be limiting.

And if the living area is reasonably warm, the plumbing in the bilge and the engine room will be ok.

David
 
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I have a couple of questions for you Mark,

Do you have 30, dual 30 or 220/50 amp power on your boat?

Does your marina leave any domestic water on over the winter? In other words how are you going to get water to your boat?

Does your marina keep docks snow/ice free in winter?

Weather permitting does your marina offer in slip pump outs over winter?

John
Thanks all- single 50a. We do get "winter water" where they'll turn a line on weekly to fill up. We've got lots of water capacity so filled tanks last several weeks if we're conservative. We also can get in slip pump outs and they do clear ice/snow. So certainly doable from a utilities stand point.

And thanks on the advice of the pink stuff. I always winterized my sailboat engine, but didn't live aboard in the winter. You're right- way cheaper than a new engine block (or two in my case!).
 
I lived in Annapolis (just south of Baltimore) for a few years. The creeks would freeze over for about a month each year. A seawater cooled/heated heat pump will also freeze up in those condition, so you need to plan for another heat source.

I assume your “radiator” is a bus heater type and heated with engine coolant. That won’t do you any good.

The only real solution during that freeze up period is to use 2-3 electric space heaters, but as noted above your AC system may be limiting.

And if the living area is reasonably warm, the plumbing in the bilge and the engine room will be ok.

David
David- thanks for replying. Heater is the oil filled portable that looks like a radiator on wheels. May get more than one now....
 
You might want to put some spacers under the mattresses so condensation can get out and not cause mold. There is a product called something like Hypervent, not sure of the name. It has lots of plastic fingers that hold the mattress up about an inch to let air circulate. Maybe someone knows the proper name.
 
How many years do you plan to winter up north?

Me...I camped out on a couple liveaboards for many years.... in the South without air and Annapolis with barely enough electric space heaters.

Now....with a bigger better liveaboard.... I would look long and hard at something like a wood stove/pellet stove. Something about a Holiday season with a light snowfall and the warmth, smell and sound of a crackling fire.

Actually had a tiny wood burning heater on a 30 foot Cape Dory Ketch I was living aboard in Ft Lauderdale, FL. It was. for those "cool" winter nights and installed by the previous owner. Believe me.... at 25 years old and a helo pilot living on a sailboat in Ft Lauderdale...that fireplace was a "big hit" with those that shared an evening with me aboard. Wasn't much use for the other 11 months, probably would have preferred AC electric aboard and maybe something other than an icebox... but at that point in life I was living large.

Yep, now it would be still a hit with old bones and cold outside.
 
Lived on our sailboat in NJ for three years. Marina would freeze up for a month or so. They did have a bubbler system that would turn on periodically. Used two oil heaters but the best thing we did was have the boat shrink wrapped with semi clear wrap . It would get so warm during the day I would come home from work to find my wife sitting in the cockpit in shorts and a t-shirt. Best money spent.
 
Lived on our sailboat in NJ for three years. Marina would freeze up for a month or so. They did have a bubbler system that would turn on periodically. Used two oil heaters but the best thing we did was have the boat shrink wrapped with semi clear wrap . It would get so warm during the day I would come home from work to find my wife sitting in the cockpit in shorts and a t-shirt. Best money spent.
Can relate to that!

First winter I had my trawler on the hard in NJ, did the flybridge in clear shrink wrap so I could pull the dead teak deck off and glass the deck. Many a February day in the 20's where I was working up there and when most people weren't around, I was stripped down to minimal and still sweating.
 
When I was living at the dock in Seattle (Lake Union) I found my electric heaters just fine for a 65 footer, with single 50A service. I kept the pilothouse closed off which itself got rather cold of course, but the staterooms and saloon were fine.

When I was cruising, the inverter and alternators, plus engine heat, seemed to be sufficient.

But I agree with above, that if spending time at anchor then a diesel fired unit of some nature (bulkhead, forced air, hydronic) is needed. Even when cruising I often found unreliable electrical service in other marinas.

BTW following to what @psneeld mentioned, although I wouldn't rely entirely on a wood burner, I think a small unit in the saloon would be the ultimate luxury for cozy winter days, wrapped in a blanket, reading a good Clive Cussler novel, while outside is the cold, miserable drooling rain... like right now in fact!
 
An enjoyable book of years ago was L Francis Herreshoff's "The Compleat Cruiser".... I would probably enjoy it again, but after 40 years of cruising I have some thoughts now of my own and boats keeps evolving.

Where he designed and cruised were the Northeastern waters of the US and much north of Cape Cod where the water remains chilly all year. He was BIG on coal stoves as they kept the cabins warm and cozy, doubled as cooking stoves and dried the sailors soggy sailing clothes.

He seem to have a writing style that matched what I envisioned how even the smallest of cruising boats should feel comforting. So what makes one happy.... so the boat should provide. I know of few people who like to be damp and cold and to me the boat should be warm and cozy, maybe not when you walk in, but in short order.
 
I've spent a few winters aboard on Lake Ontario, quite a bit colder than the Chesapeake. Around here shrink wrapping is standard procedure, and helps a lot with heating and comfort.

Last time I used 9000w of resistant electric heat on my 50' with a 50a 240v service and was quite comfortable. There was one cold snap around -20C that I turned on my diesel hydronic heat as well. That was my backup in case of power failure.

The oil filled portable radiators work well in my experience. Load balancing can be a challenge though as you add units.

I haven't winterized my engine. On my earlier boat I had a heater in the ER, and more recently I monitored temperature and found that it stayed well above freezing. As an aside it's not the block that's vulnerable to freezing, it's only the heat exchanger and exhaust system containing sea water.

I have had my reverse cycle AC freeze up as water temps get close to freezing. Around my parts it doesn't work for winter heat.
 
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One thing for the OP is... every boat is different (unless talking exact same year and model straight from the factory). They all have different layouts, air leaks, thermal masses, wind exposures, and on and on. People also have vastly different comfort temp and humidity tolerances.

So no one set of heaters (wattages) can guarantee comfort but at least some input is a start. Electric heaters are an easy add usually as long as you have the high enough electric service and high enough amperage circuits to plug into (that is one that often gets inexperienced liveaboards). But as I mentioned before...living aboard should not be camping aboard. Warm and toasty is easy with a winter sleeping bag...not my idea of retirement life.

If I had to spend a month or two in the fall and spring where below 50 degree temps were possible at night... I would have the warmest, coziest, most eye/ear/and nose appealing space I could muster to sit and enjoy things that made me happy. If all winter.... it would be a no brainer what to get.

Living aboard should be the most wonderful experience in your life if you are going to do it. The long, cold, wet walks down the dock with groceries should be rewarded with the best you can think up when stepping aboard.

Lots of people don't think that way...they think "I can get by" and before you know it they are moving back to dirt dwelling. If one is going to "live the dream", then do it if you can.
 
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One thing for the OP is... every boat is different (unless talking exact same year and model straight from the factory). They all have different layouts, air leaks, thermal masses, wind exposures, and on and on. People also have vastly different comfort temp and humidity tolerances.

So no one set of heaters (wattages) can guarantee comfort but at least some input is a start. Electric heaters are an easy add usually as long as you have the high enough electric service and high enough amperage circuits to plug into (that is one that often gets inexperienced liveaboards). But as I mentioned before...living aboard should not be camping aboard. Warm and toasty is easy with a winter sleeping bag...not my idea of retirement life.

If I had to spend a month or two in the fall and spring where below 50 degree temps were possible at night... I would have the warmest, coziest, most eye/ear/and nose appealing space I could muster to sit and enjoy things that made me happy. If all winter.... it would be a no brainer what to get.

Living aboard should be the most wonderful experience in your life if you are going to do it. The long, cold, wet walks down the dock with groceries should be rewarded with the best you can think up when stepping aboard.

Lots of people don't think that way...they think "I can get by" and before you know it they are moving back to dirt dwelling. If one is going to "live the dream", then do it if you can.
Nailed it! I've installed two hydronic heaters on the two boats I've owned. Worth every penny. One of the best times I can remember anchoring out, is when it was snowing, sipping a scotch on the back deck, and knowing my Dickinson diesel stove and hydronic heater had the boat toasty warm inside. Also, living aboard the last six years, you can always count on the hydronic heater during power outages and keeping the entire boat (bilges, engine room etc) warm. I installed over 300 feet of pex in my current boat. All those lines are heated and run through all the nooks and crannies of my boat, creating a radiant heat affect. I started with electric heaters and it got old really quick with constantly tripping the breakers along with almost starting a fire at the shorepower plug-in (before switching to the smartplug).
 
I've installed two hydronic heaters on the two boats I've owned. Worth every penny. One of the best times I can remember anchoring out, is when it was snowing, sipping a scotch on the back deck, and knowing my Dickinson diesel stove and hydronic heater had the boat toasty warm inside. Also, living aboard the last six years, you can always count on the hydronic heater during power outages and keeping the entire boat (bilges, engine room etc) warm. I installed over 300 feet of pex in my current boat. All those lines are heated and run through all the nooks and crannies of my boat, creating a radiant heat affect.
Yep. I've got a 50k btu boiler and thermostats in every room. Hard to beat. I've spent lots of time underway and at anchor in freezing weather.

My problem is that I don't have sufficient tankage for the long Canadian winter. Lugging fuel gets old. And the fixed pricing on the big electrical service was attractive last time I stayed over the winter.

My boat is in a heated shed and I'm ashore for the first winter in 7 years. Not sure how I'll adjust...
 
Non-metered. The local winter marinas charge a fixed monthly price for the electrical service.

ETA: Ontario also has almost 100% green electricity. That was also a motivator for me to go electric vs diesel while plugged in.
 
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My friend Bob Bitchin (former publisher of Latitudes & Attitudes and my partner in the TV show) just asked me to write an article for his website about living aboard in the Pacific NW in winter. In case you're interested in what we have done to stay warm, dry, and comfortable, here's the copy:

LIVING ABOARD PACIFIC NW WINTERS
By Darren O'Brien

I don’t think he happens to be a boater, but Mike Tyson once famously said, “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth”. Up here in the Pacific NW, we like to say, “everyone wants to live aboard until they get punched by winter”. We’re not insinuating we have heavyweight champion winters, but they can be pretty challenging for living on the water. While Jack Frost this year doesn’t even officially start until December 21, us year ‘round live aboards in the upper left contiguous corner are already into cold season mode.

This will be our 12th winter living aboard, and it doesn’t necessarily get any easier. We are smarter, though, than we were in the beginning. It only took us a couple years to develop a solid regimen making life aboard as comfortable as possible during the darker months.

We live on Traveler, a 1979 Cheoy Lee 46 Long Range Cruiser in Port Ludlow, WA. This particular model was marketed by Cheoy Lee in the mid to late ‘70s as “the largest production boat under 50-feet”. They weren’t wrong! Three large staterooms belowdecks; a main level with spacious saloon, large galley, and pilothouse; plus, a full beam, stand-up engine room with 6-foot three-inch headroom. So, there’s a lot of space to heat when it gets cold.

The first/best thing we did was install a Wallas forced air diesel heater for the belowdecks cabins. Game changer! We had previously used AC-powered oil-filled radiator heaters in the staterooms. But that required us to do the “30-amp dance”, turning off one or more of the heaters anytime we used 120-volt appliances such as the microwave or toaster oven, so the main breaker didn’t trip. Most years we start the Wallas in October and run it 24/7 on low until May. Cabins belowdecks stay consistently warm all wintI don’t think he is a boater, er long. It does help that Lisa lined any part of the inner hull she could reach with the thin silver insulation you can find at virtually any hardware store.

Of course, heat rises, so the main level doesn’t get too chilly as a byproduct of the diesel heat downstairs. We’re very appreciative the previous live aboard owners installed a household size propane fireplace in the main cabin. That wonderful, easy to use stove takes temperatures from the low 50s to 70-degrees in just a few minutes each morning. But fiberglass boats are notoriously poor at retaining heat, and we have nine large, single-pane windows in the main saloon. A big difference maker has been the application of heat shrink plastic (also found in most hardware stores). We jokingly refer to it as “hillbilly insulation”, but it really works. Not only does it help retain heat, but we can cook without steaming up all the windows when it’s 30-40 degrees outside.

Speaking of steam, all three of us also shower aboard. We have an engine room blower ducted through a vent in the master head which evacuates most of the steam to the outside. Additionally, we have two AC dehumidifiers (30 and 48-quart) that run periodically each day to keep moisture levels down. Keeping down the humidity is something of which we’re very cognizant.

Because it’s moisture that wreaks the most havoc in an otherwise closed-up boat during the winter. Which is how mold and mildew gain a foot hold. To combat those nasty germ growing elements, we use two other essential products: H2Out Space Dryers and Kanberra Gel.

To help keep the boat “dry”, we have 16 H2Out Space Dryers of various sizes placed in lockers, drawers, and cabinets throughout the boat. Space Dryers do exactly that: they dry the space utilizing desiccant. Unlike other products that condense moisture into a caustic liquid that needs to be dealt with, these are infinitely and easily rechargeable. Every few months Lisa digs them out and heats them in the toaster oven at 300-degreess for a couple of hours. Voilà! They’re ready to adsorb moisture again. And that’s not a typo. They aDsorb water, not aBsorb. After working with Nigel Calder who endorses H2Out, and because we sell them in our Boater TESTED online store, I learned the two are very different chemistries. Thus the ability for H2Out products to recharge endlessly.

To address the potential for mold and mildew, we use a similar number of containers with Kanberra Gel all around the boat. Kanberra Gel is Australian tea tree oil that evaporates into the air and literally eliminates mold and mildew. Some studies have shown tea tree oil effectively kills viruses, too. The three of us have never had Covid, so maybe there’s something to that! Plus, our boat actually smells nice. Even landlubbers who visit remark how we don’t have that “boat smell”. We also haven’t had any mold or mildew problems in a dozen years. You can find Kanberra Gel, as well as their other tea tree oil products Kanberra Spray, Kanberra Soap, and Kanberra Hand Sanitizer in our Boater TESTED store.

Lisa was always fond of saying in addition to dehumidifiers, there are three things she must have in order to comfortably live aboard during our Pacific NW winters: warm, dry heat; H2Out Space Dryers; and Kanberra Gel. Check, check, and check. Now that we’ve added a fourth with the heat shrink plastic in the main cabin, it’s even better. And we use less propane for the fireplace than we used to, so it has saved us money.

However, I’d have to say the Wallas heater is my favorite winter mitigation champ. Not only does it wonderfully elevate our comfort living aboard, anytime I need to work in the engine room during the cold, dark days of winter I don’t freeze my nuts and bolts off!

##
 
Nailed it! I've installed two hydronic heaters on the two boats I've owned. Worth every penny. One of the best times I can remember anchoring out, is when it was snowing, sipping a scotch on the back deck, and knowing my Dickinson diesel stove and hydronic heater had the boat toasty warm inside. Also, living aboard the last six years, you can always count on the hydronic heater during power outages and keeping the entire boat (bilges, engine room etc) warm. I installed over 300 feet of pex in my current boat. All those lines are heated and run through all the nooks and crannies of my boat, creating a radiant heat affect. I started with electric heaters and it got old really quick with constantly tripping the breakers along with almost starting a fire at the shorepower plug-in (before switching to the smartplug).
Which make/model of hydronic, and did you run PEX-Al-PEX or regular, and what size. This has long been on my to-do list, current thinking is Hurricane.
 
Which make/model of hydronic, and did you run PEX-Al-PEX or regular, and what size. This has long been on my to-do list, current thinking is Hurricane.
Pex A (3/4 inch) using the expansion tool (highly recommended). I got the Olympia 105. I came close to getting a Kabola, but after installing a hydronic heater on my last boat, I went with the Oly 105 due to the customer service I got from Sure Marine in Ballard. They are a five minute drive from my boat. If you are DIY, plan on dozens of trips/questions for parts. There is only one guy in my area that sells the Kabola and he's an hour away. He also doesn't have a store front. None of the Pex connections leaked. My only mistake was not putting pipe sealant on the female threads of radiators. Halfway through I read something about how the sealant can be squeezed out if you only put it on the male threads. True. I ended up draining the system three times (had to purchase a two way pump) to fix the leaks. I have manifolds for the output and return. I have spare connections to add radiators, engine heat exchangers, hot water tank, etc. I did this last summer and it took me 3-4 months. I took my time and most of the problem was figuring out where to run the Pex and place the radiators. Ounce I had everything hooked up, I hired the tech at Sure Marine to confirm my electrical connections and do the initial start up. I had one wire reversed. A yellow wire ended up being positive- posted on the electrical device and easily read if I had bothered to look. You can PM me if you have additional questions.
 
I have lived aboard for 30 years in the PNW. I have used every form of heat source, portable space heaters, diesel forced air, diesel hydronic, radiant, built in electric resistance and heat pumps.

There is no one answer, a lot depends on the boat and your budget.

Heat pumps are the cheapest on a power consumption cost, they are one of the most effective as they circulate air through the whole boat, most have built in dehumidifiers. They are the most expensive to purchase initially and installation expense is high. Shore power or generator required.

Diesel hydronic is very effective with air circulation, no dehumidifier. Initial purchase is less than heat pump, maintenance is higher and installation is expensive. Operating costs are also very hight but shore power is not a requirement.

Resistance heaters such as King’s pick-a-watt are initially very inexpensive, both to purchase and install. Maintenance is almost non existent. Space requirements are their biggest issue. Not as efficient as a heat pump but probably still cheaper in the long run. 30a is rarely enough power to heat a 40’ boat with this method.

Plug in heating devices. Cheapest to buy and install. Not very good with air circulation. Not very safe. There tends not to be enough adequate circuitry to safely support the number of portable units to supply the necessary heat. 30a shore power likely not enough on a boat over 30’.

The smaller the boat the less concern for cost per BTU and the greater the concern for space required. Circulation is less critical and dehumidification can be achieved relatively easily. As boats get larger, cost per BTU becomes more relevant as does air circulation, space needed for installation becomes less of an issue.

This is just the beginning of any discussion on what it takes to heat a boat for the winter.
 
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