12V 400AH LFP Server Rack Battery $1500

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Nice, but what would be even nicer is a 48V 400Ah rack mounted with a removable (aka external) BMS. Do those case lids open up?
 
Mako said:
Nice, but what would be even nicer is a 48V 400Ah rack mounted with a removable (aka external) BMS. Do those case lids open up?
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Prowse uses a screwdriver to open the case, so yes, appears they are easily accessible.

The 12v/400Ah battery weighs close to 100 lbs, about the same as a 48v 100ah server rack battery. Quadrupling that probably isn't practical, at least not on a boat with current technology.

This battery has full communications capabilities which opens up yet another benefit for LFP. You know exactly what is going on inside. EG4 apparently makes an inverter/charger that will full communicate, however Prowse has had harsh words for EG4 software in them. No issues with batteries.

For anyone building a new boat, I would strongly suggest consider designing in a short server rack for house batteries. 12v would not be my first choice for new build but if you're doing a major refit like I did, good there is now a 12v option. I wish I had this option a couple years ago when I made these choices.

Peter
 
These are the batteries i have chosen for my install. They talk to Victron and other product lines as well.
 
Greg QS said:
These are the batteries i have chosen for my install. They talk to Victron and other product lines as well.
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Cool - when ready, can you post pics, specs, etc? Are you 12v or 24v boat?

Peter
 
I started a post " lifepod upgrade" with the description of the system and the wiring diagrams.
All 12v . Waiting for parts to arrive hopefully next week.
 
Any concerns with longevity/reliability in a vibration and salt air environment?

I believe (hope?) that there is something to marinization/rough service rating that is more than just increasing the price.

Otherwise, I love the idea.
 
Northern Spy said:
Any concerns with longevity/reliability in a vibration and salt air environment?

I believe (hope?) that there is something to marinization/rough service rating that is more than just increasing the price.

Otherwise, I love the idea.[/QUOTE


Things to think about.

This is not a go fast boat. It can , but not the norm can do 20 knts . Vibrations minimal.
This type of boat is temp controlled 365 a year.
It is more like a house. My interior finishes are not failing , other regular appliance are not failing. I would in no way think this is a rough service environment.

The installation is under the vip bed. center line of the boat about mid ship. A pretty calm place to be. Came up from Florida in 6' seas and slept like a baby in that bunk.
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The maturation of this technology and equally importantly, the knowledge and standardization to effectively incorporate it into cruising boats is very interesting.

The possibilities are pretty darn impressive, I could see a very practical application of 6 of these units (the pre-assembled rack) and a 5kw inverter effectively negating the need for a generator as they are typically used by many cruisers in my geographic area. From my experience, and obeservation, many cruising power boats on the chesapeake bay (my home waters), tend to take a transient slip at least 1 out of every 3 nights of cruising. By my math, the 30.7 kWh rack for $9K would provide adaquate capacity for a 100% electic boat for 2 days including running 1 zone of AC each night and on the days spend in a slip, you would re-charge using the electricity from the grid at a cheaper price than what you could generate via diesel. Of course a solar array would do nothing but help and whatever alternator charging would also make the battery capacity go further. A new generator install would probably run twice the price of such a unit, allowing a pretty good budget for a quality install of the equipment, a nice inverter and a dedicated shore power inlet, if needed. I would not have been this interested even 2 years ago.
 
We will see. The batteries are arriving today in about an hour. I have started a thread and will post the progress and results when it is complete. It will take me some time. I am on the hard now doing pressing pre season maintenance. Zinks, metal paint, flipping out a prop, etc,
 
Greg QS said:
We will see. The batteries are arriving today in about an hour. I have started a thread and will post the progress and results when it is complete. It will take me some time. I am on the hard now doing pressing pre season maintenance. Zinks, metal paint, flipping out a prop, etc,
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A dock mate of mine (at HHS) had MTS install a much smaller LifePO system on his sailboat. It ended being pretty expensive for a relatively small system but he needed a lot of reconfiguration to his DC system. Future expansion should be straightforward. He was happy with the installation aside from a major DC conductor installed next to his autohelm compass which caused his boat to steer 90 degrees off course, easy fix but unnecessary surprise.
 
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24 volt system. Very happy so far. Look forward to seeing Greg’s system.
 
When I looked at Lifepo upgrade, I've got an impression that the batteries designed for marine use are completely sealed with BMS being inside so it can shut it down if there is a short. That waterproofing provides an extra safety in case water will get to the batteries. The boat I have now got flooded up to the batteries (lead) a few years back so it's not uncommon.

There are a lot of horror stories about lithium battery catching fire; It may depend on the technology so I do not know. Still worth considering; you do not want a raging fire dragon under your bed.

Is there any information what will happen to that battery if it gets in the water or water leak will short it inside?
 
Waterant said:
When I looked at Lifepo upgrade, I've got an impression that the batteries designed for marine use are completely sealed with BMS being inside so it can shut it down if there is a short. That waterproofing provides an extra safety in case water will get to the batteries. The boat I have now got flooded up to the batteries (lead) a few years back so it's not uncommon.

There are a lot of horror stories about lithium battery catching fire; It may depend on the technology so I do not know. Still worth considering; you do not want a raging fire dragon under your bed.

Is there any information what will happen to that battery if it gets in the water or water leak will short it inside?
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As far as LiFePO4 (LFP), the chance of fire is extremely low. In the rare case of thermal runaway, the chemistry just does not attain the temperatures high enough which is why other chemistries have issues.

Peter
 
mvweebles said:
As far as LiFePO4 (LFP), the chance of fire is extremely low. In the rare case of thermal runaway, the chemistry just does not attain the temperatures high enough which is why other chemistries have issues.
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Good to know, thanks
Battery upgrade is on my to-do list
 
Waterant said:
A simple Google search will show several ways LiFePO4 batteries can become unstable and catch fire. for example https://cleversolarpower.com/is-lifepo4-battery-safe/
they are safer than other technologies but not completely harmless.

https://www.google.com/search?q=can...33i160i579.11152j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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The article you linked concludes with : Overall, LiFePO4 batteries are considered to be a safe choice for a variety of applications due to their high level of stability and built-in protection features. In the body of the article, author notes that fire risk is mostly from shorting across the terminals such as dropping a tool which would release a lot of energy at once, a problem with any battery, especially FLA that can explode when heavily arced. He makes no mention of thermal runaway, the cause of spontaneous fires that are so scary

Large battery banks store a tremendous amount of energy. They need to be properly installed and operated within design guidelines. The risk of fire with LFP is not great, perhaps less than FLA (a guess).

Peter
 
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For what it's worth, all the battery cells (the fundamental building block in the battery) pass UN 38.3. You can't ship them without passing this test, so they all have passed it. There also is UL 1642 which is very similar to UN 38.3, but arguably a notch more demanding. An increasing portion of batteries sold now also meet UL 1642.


Both of these standards includes test that:


- Crush the batteries


- Overcharge


- Impact (smash something into the battery)


- Spike test where a metal spike is driven through the battery


- Vibration test


- Bake the battery in an oven



- A bolted short circuit test from full to empty.



These are all performed on fully charged (or nearly full) batteries, and the short circuit test runs until the battery is fully drained. To pass, the battery can't "disassemble" (e.g. explode), catch fire, etc.


And these tests are BEFORE any BMS is added into the equation.
 
I want to see those extreme tests on a lead acid battery . These tests were done on a raw cell. I would love to see the same tests with the BMS in the system.

Over charge lead acid and boil out fluid will catch fire. bet that would happen in the 30+ hours of overcharging at high current. Do not forget the explosion risk , while charging lead acid Hydron gas is released just sitting in the belly of the boat waiting for an ignition source. Witch can come from the battery itself. I would think this is the biggest problem with LA batteries. A cell goes down, the charger continues to charge, hydrogen gas builds up or the battery just goes into thermal runaway. No bms here as a safety.

Dead short will most likely burn off the posts. Melt or burn something.

Make sure you wear a full rubber suit when hitting the lead acid with the pick ax.

Lead acid would probally due well with the torch. The case would burn but, once the acid leaked out it would probally extinguish the fire.


I liked the video. The lifepod 4 did great. Since I am not planning to take a pick ax, burn them with a torch, Purposely overcharge them for hours on end, or dead short them , I think I'm fairly safe. Dont forget these all are tests without the bms control, that simply disconnects the battery if any of the situations occur.
 
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from this article: https://cleversolarpower.com/is-lifepo4-battery-safe/

"If you work with raw lifepo4 cells, you need to have a divider in between the cells. Otherwise, the friction can rub away the blue plastic on every cell. If the blue plastic is rubbed off, the negative of one cell comes in contact with the other negative of another"

Do they have such dividers between the cells in that server battery which is not designed to be used in a moving vehicle?

"A short-circuit can occur if the positive and negative terminals of a LiFePO4 battery come into contact with each other. This can cause the battery to become unstable and potentially catch fire."

Water can short the contacts after the BMS, so BMS can not shut down the battery. There is no such risk if BMS is sealed inside. In the video, Will mentions building a watertight box for marine use, which is impractical and will greatly increase the installation cost.


i agree, LiFePO4 is the safest option. Still, for me personally, using unsealed LiFePO4 with an external BMS is riskier in the marine environment, especially when the battery is located below the deck in the engine room. And building a watertight enclosure will not be easy and will be expensive.

if someone is considering this upgrade, it's worth noting that the sealed LiFePO4 battery with BMS inside may be a safer option. Yes, there is a price difference and fewer choices, but it's not limited to very expensive Victron and BattleBorn brands any longer.

For example, bigbattery has marine-grade sealed LiFePO4 with stainless hardware:
https://bigbattery.com/products/12v-seal-lifepo4-228ah-3-0kwh/
two of them will be $2,580 for 440Ah

or IP65-rated SOK batteries: https://www.currentconnected.com/product/sok-sk12v206/
$1918 for 412Ah

I'm not saying those are great batteries - it's just an example and needs more research. There are maybe some new options now.

My point is that proper marine-grade batteries are not 3x or 4x more expensive now, as was the case not long ago.
 
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Waterant said:
from this article: https://cleversolarpower.com/is-lifepo4-battery-safe/

"If you work with raw lifepo4 cells, you need to have a divider in between the cells. Otherwise, the friction can rub away the blue plastic on every cell. If the blue plastic is rubbed off, the negative of one cell comes in contact with the other negative of another"

Do they have such dividers between the cells in that server battery which is not designed to be used in a moving vehicle?

"A short-circuit can occur if the positive and negative terminals of a LiFePO4 battery come into contact with each other. This can cause the battery to become unstable and potentially catch fire."

Water can short the contacts after the BMS, so BMS can not shut down the battery. There is no such risk if BMS is sealed inside. In the video, Will mentions building a watertight box for marine use, which is impractical and will greatly increase the installation cost.


i agree, LiFePO4 is the safest option. Still, for me personally, using unsealed LiFePO4 with an external BMS is riskier in the marine environment, especially when the battery is located below the deck in the engine room. And building a watertight enclosure will not be easy and will be expensive.

if someone is considering this upgrade, it's worth noting that the sealed LiFePO4 battery with BMS inside may be a safer option. Yes, there is a price difference and fewer choices, but it's not limited to very expensive Victron and BattleBorn brands any longer.

For example, bigbattery has marine-grade sealed LiFePO4 with stainless hardware:
https://bigbattery.com/products/12v-seal-lifepo4-228ah-3-0kwh/
two of them will be $2,580 for 440Ah

or IP65-rated SOK batteries: https://www.currentconnected.com/product/sok-sk12v206/
$1918 for 412Ah

I'm not saying those are great batteries - it's just an example and needs more research. There are maybe some new options now.

My point is that proper marine-grade batteries are not 3x or 4x more expensive now, as was the case not long ago.
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I would give moderate to low credibility to CleverSolarPower.com - He's just another guy messing with this stuff. And it's silly to say that if you don't have dividers between batteries they will rub through and short. Standards call for the batteries to be securely mounted and protected from the elements for normal operation. You could go the extra mile to protect them from a sinking boat, but I'm not sure what gain there really is.


And BigBattery.com I would give low credibility too. Zero reputation or track record. They go on about the gasketed enclosure, but there is no IP rating for the product on the web site or in the datasheet. Vendors like this are a dime a dozen on ebay, amazon, and alibaba. Will Prose does a good job testing all the no-name stuff out there, and finding out what might actually be worth buying.


If you are worried about safety, your starting point should be credible vendors with a track record and reputation, not random two-guys-and-a-soldering-iron shops selling through amazon and alibaba.


And by the way, what does "Marine Grade" actually mean. To BigBattery, it seems to mean a gasket and 316 stainless case. My main engine isn't gasketed and made from stainless, so it is unsuitable for a boat? I can't think of any context where "Marine Grade" actually means anything, other than it's probably more expensive.
 
As I know, both bigbatteries and sok are pretty known and established battery providers with sok being one of the best Chinese lithium battery builder for years.
Will (the guy from the original video) has tested and dissembled them both to show how they are built.
For marine application, I would take those plastic enclosures vs a rack battery cover.

I'm not against those rack packs - price and features look great. I just don't want some of my marina neighbors get over excited about the price and stick one of those in the bilge where his flood battery was without more research on how they will behave in the marine environment.

Are you saying that battery will not do anything nasty if it gets submerged in the water? I understand it will probably ruin it but it would be good enough for me as long as it will not ruin the boat and anybody beside it.
 
Waterant said:
.Are you saying that battery will not do anything nasty if it gets submerged in the water? I understand it will probably ruin it but it would be good enough for me as long as it will not ruin the boat and anybody beside it.
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I can tell you one thing that won't happen of they are submerged in water: a fire. There isn't much that will burn underwater. LFP batteries is not one of them.

Your biggest risk is not the battery, it's the installation. LFP are much lighter and smaller and therefore can be mounted in many more places than their FLA/AGM counterparts. Proper cabling and circuit protection is still needed.

I think you're over-thinking this.

Peter
 
It's good to know. Thanks, Peter.
This is an interesting option for a cruising boat.
 
Will Prowse video where he tears down a new version of a $330/100ah cheap Chinese battery he's been using for 18-months. Mixed results with ultimate recommendation that the EG4 12v server rack battery is a much better deal. He continues to like the SOK build quality for smaller batteries, but believes the cheap AmpereTime type batteries are okay (not great). He's surprised they hold up as well as they do.

https://youtu.be/30HaYO_mZpg

Peter
 
Prices for dropped all round for these types of batteries. The Kilovault 200A battery I bought last year dropped from $1,400 to $900.

The SOC sounds like a great battery other than there not sealed. I do like the they will communicate with Victron. A big plus and a 10 year warranty. Mine only have a 7.5 year warranty.

On the warranty. The only thing that gets me is some sellers want you to pay for shipping both ways and some one way.
 
The "Weize" battery in the review update I just posted from Will Prowse carries a 10-year warranty. However......towards the end of the review, Prowse says the manufacturer has ignored all five of his emails, and other users report similar cricket treatment. Might as well be a lifetime warranty for all its worth.

BTW - Prowse mentions the SOK's have a very low failure rate (2-3 out of 10,000 - no idea how he knows this) and they are very responsive to tech support and warranty issues. He re-affirmed his recommendation.

Peter
 
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