4 year old Lifeline and dead?

[Arthurc]

Hi,
Took our first trip out after almost a year and was surprised to be woken up 6 hours after shutting down the gen to a low battery alarm and a voltage of 11.4v. Batteries were in float before i shut down and i was drawing about 60a per my Maretron as my heating system was on. Would love some advice on best next steps. Even at a 60a draw I should have got at least 12 hours before I hit 60 percent which is what i try not to go under. Unfortunately I didn’t realize I had the mute switch flipped on my alarm so I don’t know when it went below 50.

Details:
1800ah of Lifeline L16s at 12v
Xantrex 3012 inverter/charger set to AGM profile and correct bank size.
Balmar MC-614 (200a alternator, single engine)

Questions:
-Could something have happened while on shore power that damaged the batteries or could the charge controller have been tricked into under charging? About 2 years ago while in a yard someone did knock the shore power cable loose causing the batteries to drop to 10v or below, that said lifeline didn’t seem too concerned by that as it was noticed quickly. Also last summer I had the 3012 set to 5a as I was on a private dock with only 15a 110, but without much use I can’t see how that would have harmed things since float uses way less than that.

-Any initial tests I should run?

-Is it worth equalizing the batteries? I know most agms that’s not recommended but lifeline seems to say it’s ok.

-Could the few times I run both the gen and main engine at the same time cause an issue or long term damage?

Any other suggestions or advice would be appreciated! I’d like to avoid a major retrofit of my batteries/charging as with supply shortages I’d worry I won’t get it done before our bigger trip north. Not to mention I have other boat projects I’d rather spend the money on.

Thanks much!
Arthur

 

[sunchaser]

AC
On two different occasions I've had AGMs go bad when sitting at low voltage for "too long." This was after 4 years of general thruster service. Suggest you recheck all your battery connections, Maretron and wiring. Also, check and monitor each battery for a dead cell.

 

[cafesport]

Those batteries appear to be 400 ah at the 20 hour rate which equates to a 20 amp load. If you triple that you’d be lucky to get six hours. You say you have an 1800 amp bank which doesn’t appear to add up. How many of these batteries do you have? As far as killing these goes I regularly load test my 8d’s to the equivalent of 11 volts to do an equalization cycle and they do fine. Going on six years I still get back to full rated capacity. There are a couple of ways to kill these batteries, but I don’t think you have done so. Charge them back up and load test them, then charge them again and do an equalization charge. If you’ve lost capacity then you have a problem with your charging.

 

[Arthurc]

They are 400ah at 6v, and one correction, too early in the morning when I posted that, I have 2000 ah total capacity, 10 total batteries total. The 20a at 6v would be 10 per battery if I understand it at 12v so 100a discharge rate for my system.
I think my system may be set to 1800 total ah which is what made me think of that but would need to confirm, I don’t think that would damage anything however.

 

[DDW]

Are both the Xantrex and the Balmar using a battery temp sensor? Are those accurate? Is the temp comp set to the right value for Lifeline? Is the float voltage set for Lifelines (lower than many AGM)? I've seen problems with each of those things.

When the yard tripped over the cord and said it was noticed "quickly", what did they mean? Even a week or two at 10V will be very hard on the batteries. I'm at 14 years on the (carefully treated) Lifeline bank on the sailboat, and yeah they are due for replacement. I just replaced the ones on the trawler at 10 years.

 

[Arthurc]

Temp sensors on all and they are within a few degrees if the Maretron sensor which is my independent one.

Really good question on float voltage, I’ll verify next time I’m at the boat.

I believe the batteries were 10v for a day or two as I noticed the remote monitoring and cameras went offline.

Thanks for the ideas on what to check!

 

[Barking Sands]

Really if you want to know the state of your Lifelines you might consider taking the steps in the manual. Specifically steps 5.5, 5.6, 5.7. You can even recover some performance after a deep discharge such as what you described. And once done there is a reconditioning charge as well. A true cap check as outlined in the manual will tell you exactly where you are in the life of those batteries. It does take some specific equipment to do these tests but with some research you could probably cobble together a set up for not too much.

I recently found out that Lifelines were nearly identical to the aircraft Concordes that are the industry standard in aviation (same manufacturer). They are excellent batteries. In aviation these batteries are capacity checked every 24 months and I have been involved with that since they began using them in aircraft (maybe 20 years). Many times we will remove a battery from the aircraft and send it to the battery shop for cap check. Many times the cap check fails and we then do the conditioning charge and then redo the cap check. A gain in capacity of 10-20% is not unusual and many times the capacity can be brought back to nearly 100% if the battery is not damaged. As a matter of fact generally warranty will not be available unless the conditioning charge has been done followed by a second failed cap check.

The only issue is you really cant just wing it for these procedures If it says do a constant current charge for the deep discharge recovery procedure you really have to know what that entails and have the automatic equipment to do it...or manual equipment that you monitor every 15-20 minutes during the process.
A good power supply with both voltage and amperage control and enough AMPs for the procedures isn't cheap. But then again neither is your battery bank.




https://lifelinebatteries.com/knowledge-center/

 

[Insequent]

I suspect your batteries have sulphated and are toast. But following the recovery procedure you might get some capacity back, in some if not all of them. Most people are aware that chronic undercharging leads to sulphation. Less common is sulphation from keeping fully charged, but not cycling the batteries.

How I came to discover this phenomenon..... 1700Ah of batteries only 15months old..... was due to looking after an ill family member 4000km away. I did not use my boat for 5 months. Victron charger set with "storage" function at 13.2V, and solar to keep charged, 13.5V float, if I lost shore power, kept the batteries fully charged. Sweet, or so I thought. But deep cycle batteries need to be cycled. Just how much and how often is not clear, but they do not like sitting at full charge without cycling.

In your post you said "first trip out in almost a year". To me that was the give-away. I'm told that some brands of batteries are more susceptible to this failure mode than others, and think Lifeline would be one of the better brands. You might recover some, or some capacity. I've just installed 900Ah of LFP.

 

[Bmarler]

i always found the first trip out of the season the batteries didn't perform very well. these were agms. not lifelines, but good agms. after a few cycles they'd come back just fine. they were always great at the end of the season, performed better than expected. after the winter hold over, not so good again.

 

[tiltrider1]

I have to ask. What type of heat system were you using? Just to verify, that was 60a at 12v and not 60a at 120v.

 

[pjtemplin]

Also to verify, is that all batteries in parallel, or are you doing series/parallel strings to create a higher voltage system?

 

[Shrew]

The life of the battery is going to be determined by how deeply you deplete and recharge them and how many cycles this deep depletion occurs. I understand that AGM is better than flooded when it comes to repeated deep cycling, but that doesn't mean it's not going to shorten their lifespan. Even a deep cycle AGM battery would have a longer life with a high frequency of shallow depletion and recharge cycles.

I would expect if you're running A/C or heat off of an inverter, you're both loosing amps in the inversion process, and you're regularly drawing down the house bank deeply. This is what is shortening the lifespan IMHO. 60A draw is huge.

I've been able to get my Lifeline AGM house banks to last over 10 years.

I'd either build a bigger house bank, use alternative methods of heating, or accept the duty cycles based on use.

 

[Arthurc]

I have to ask. What type of heat system were you using? Just to verify, that was 60a at 12v and not 60a at 120v.

Its a hydronic system powered by an Olympia boiler. My total draw was about 60amps 12v on the bank, not just the heater. Heating system uses 12-22amps 12v as measured by my battery monitor on the bank as its a mix of 110v for the boiler and 12v for the fan units. The variability is because each fan unit/space has an independent temp control that switches them on and off.

 

[Arthurc]

I would expect if you're running A/C or heat off of an inverter, you're both loosing amps in the inversion process, and you're regularly drawing down the house bank deeply. This is what is shortening the lifespan IMHO. 60A draw is huge.

I've been able to get my Lifeline AGM house banks to last over 10 years.

I'd either build a bigger house bank, use alternative methods of heating, or accept the duty cycles based on use.

Is 60amps really that high for total draw on a decent sized trawler?, it is in terms of sailboats but 60amps at 12v doesn't power much.

(2) fridges isotherm 200s = 6-12amps total
Heating = 10-20amps
Bridge Electronics = 15amps
Inverter =1-2 amps = 24ish at 12v
Lights are a small draw as all led.

Just trying to understand where I would cut back. The inverter powers a bunch of random stuff, tvs, ice maker, apple devices, etc.

Thanks
AC

 

[Arthurc]

Also to verify, is that all batteries in parallel, or are you doing series/parallel strings to create a higher voltage system?

Series/parallel to jump from 6v L16s to 12v.
But I also discovered that the last two batteries were not installed the way I would have done it, basically the two which didn't fit in the original battery box tacked onto the string versus extending it. Im going to have the yard fix that before I do anything more as I noticed higher amp draw from the 6 versus the 2 that sit next to the box.

Once I have that fixed I'm going to equalize them a few times, it was interesting that lifeline recommends doing it frequently.

AC

 

[pjtemplin]

You've said 10 batteries, and that's how you're arriving at 2000ah, but you say 6 batteries in the box and 2 next to the box (which is 8, not 10). 60A for 12 hours would be 720AH; shouldn't take you below 50% SoC unless the starting point wasn't 100%.



You mention equalizing them. Perhaps something like the https://www.victronenergy.com/batteries/battery-balancer to help deal with the midpoint of your string(s)?

 

[Arthurc]

You are correct, not sure why I put 6, too many projects/questions at once… I’m headed up to the boat tomorrow and will draw out how they are connected, I don’t know if the current wiring will cause issues but it doesn’t seem right.

I hadn’t seen the balancer before, I could see that being useful.

As far as equalizing I believe my xantrex 3012 will do it and I’ll follow lifelines “conditioning” specs, what is interesting is they say it can be done frequently so I might do a series of them over the next few months. Only issue is having to kill my dc system while it’s running as I wouldn’t want 16v being pushed to all the electronics.

 

[Insequent]

The equalisations are worth a try. Lifeline is the only AGM manufacturer I'm aware of that allows it, the others typically say do not exceed 15V.

It might just bring them back a bit for you, but I still suspect that lack of frequent cycling has them partially sulphated.

 

[Arthurc]

Yeah I’m worried about that, but if I can get enough back to make it through summer (hopefully installing a gen auto start) I’ll be fine to replace them later. I’d like to go to LiPo on my next set but it would make sense to also swap the inverter/charger, etc and with such limited stock for all this stuff Id rather wait.

 

[cafesport]

Once you get a handle on how your battery bank is set up you can work out a system to keep them properly charged. You will need to need to do proper discharge test to get a baseline. If you have 5 independent 400 amp banks, begin by isolating and testing one bank at a time. You probably should do this at the battery not through the inverter to insure accuracy. The inverter has probably been lying to you for a variety of reasons. I would also recommend using a separate charger for recharge and conditioning on the isolated bank. Let the inverter manage the rest of the banks for now. If the batteries can’t hit the 10 hour rate, you’ll need an equalization cycle or three. If that doesn’t bring them back, then they are done, and you need to figure out why before buying anything else.

 

[Arthurc]

Here is the layout, the 2 tacked on feels odd and I noticed a significant difference in amp draw between those batteries versus other pairs using an amp clamp.
AC

 

[DDW]

You could improve on that but would require a bit more cable. How far is the run from the eight to the extra two? They did the eight right, but the others are tacked on.

 

[Arthurc]

Prolly 2-3 feet, the 2 are right next to the original box.

The way to fix is like this, right?

 

[cafesport]

Arthur, so what you have is five parallel banks of 12 volts consisting of two 6v strings in series. The current loads will vary and will be the lowest on the series wires compared to the parallel wires and the load wires. The load wires will carry at a minimum 5 times what the series wires carry and the parallel wires will carry at least twice what the series wires carry under load and none of this is measured accurately by the inverter or a battery monitor. I don’t have time now to explain how to properly charge load test and equalize your bank but that’s where you are heading. You do have isolator switches and fuses on each 12 volt bank , yes?

 

[Arthurc]

If by banks you mean each 6v pair then no I don’t have any isolation, my bank isolation switch and fusing is for the entire bank of batteries.

 

[Barking Sands]

If you are going to do any of the procedures in the manual you really should do it 1 battery at a time. You could take a pair out of the bank at a time and then do each one of the two individually.

 

[DDW]

Prolly 2-3 feet, the 2 are right next to the original box.

The way to fix is like this, right?

'xactly. That makes the 5th pair electrically the same as the others. The idea is that any series pair has the same cable length in its current loop to a load as any other series pair. Cafesport is also correct on the relative currents in the cables, however if wired correctly the voltage drop to/from any series pair should be the same.

 

[cafesport]

Arthur I hate to break it to you but it looks like your project list just got a little longer. As per ABYC standards you’d best start by adding isolator switches to each of your five banks. You also need them for redundancy and to properly maintain these as well as any other batteries you are contemplating in the future.

I looked up the specs on your batteries. Once you can isolate your batteries into five 12 volt pairs you can do a discharge test. According to the manufacturer you can do this in pairs so you don’t have to go battery by battery.

You are going to need some new tools. A 300 watt .5 ohm resistor, a dvm and a separate cv/cc charger. Charging and conditioning are done at constant voltage, you’ll need constant current for deep discharge recovery. Specs say you should get 950 mins. From what you described you probably won’t make that number, but I think you can still get there.

Before capacity testing you need to make absolutely sure the batteries are fully charged. Do this by disconnecting them from all loads, once your inverter thinks they are charged.

Let them rest 24 hours and then charge them at 14.4 volts with a separate charger until the acceptance rate falls bellow .005C (<2 amps for your batteries).Best to also keep an eye on case temperature when doing all of this for the first time.

Rest them again for an hour or so and then begin the discharge test. Once the voltage drops to 10.5v stop the test and immediately recharge them at 14.4v until the acceptance rate drops below 2 amps.

Check the case temp, if all good then you can charge at 15.5 volts (consult the temperature tables in the manual for this before setting voltage) and 25 amps for eight hours.

Rest the batteries overnight and then do another capacity test. You may need to repeat this a few times. Consider replacement for the strings that can’t go more than 760 mins (.8 x 950mins). It’s a time consuming process the first go through. With 5 banks you might try doing one bank every x# weeks once you get everything back to spec. Use and abuse will dictate the frequency. It’s easiest to do this at the dock for starters.

 

[DDW]

You don't need isolation switches just to do a test or even an equalize. Just disconnect the battery to do it. If you do it very routinely, then switches will make it convenient - but there is no reason to do this routinely on Lifelines. Properly treated, they will last a very long time, even if it is never done.

 

[cafesport]

You could go without it but, ABYC and insurers want one on any battery over 880 cca or 100 amps. It’s also nice to be able to take a bad bank off line and not loose all your dc power. Properly treated is the issue here. Most failures are due to improper treatment. I treat mine very badly and I suspect Arthur does as well.