Autopilot advice?

[Mike GB32]

So, I have a Raymarine type 2 rotary autopilot drive which I plan to install in my Grand Banks 32. The way I understand it, this is a bit on the overkill side for the displacement of my boat but I like it that way. Now I need to decide on control unit to drive it. The properly matched Raymarine EV-400 is a bit pricey and I really don't need all the bells and whistles. I'm looking for a simple point and shoot autopilot just to hold a heading, not to follow course or talk to other devices that I don't have. Is there any reason to believe that the Raymarine will do a better job of keeping me pointed in the right direction than a Sitex or Comnav or any other more 'basic' unit??
This will be my first autopilot so I'm hoping those with more experience or knowledge can help me decide.

 

[SoWhat]

It depends....

What size hydraulic ram do you have?
What MFD are you using?
What type of nema network are running?
Do you have ethernet?
Do you want new or used equipment?

Note from old Raymarine forum on using ACU-200 instead of ACU-400 for Type 2 running at 5-7 amps:

"Unfortunately, the drive unit's rated power consumption is only one of the factors taken into consideration in specifying an ACU. When the drive unit is switching polarities, which it does constantly when the autopilot is operating in Auto or Track mode, it will create a current spike which can be 5-6 times that of 7 amps which you have stated. Over time these current spikes would cause damage to the drive FETs of an undersized ACU. ACU failures resulting from use of a drive unit requiring a larger ACU would void the ACU's warranty. Additionally, the inability of an undersized ACU to accommodate may cause voltage drops within the autopilot, causing it to drop to Standby from Auto or Track modes without triggering any error alarms."

 

[mvweebles]

So, I have a Raymarine type 2 rotary autopilot drive which I plan to install in my Grand Banks 32. The way I understand it, this is a bit on the overkill side for the displacement of my boat but I like it that way. Now I need to decide on control unit to drive it. The properly matched Raymarine EV-400 is a bit pricey and I really don't need all the bells and whistles. I'm looking for a simple point and shoot autopilot just to hold a heading, not to follow course or talk to other devices that I don't have. Is there any reason to believe that the Raymarine will do a better job of keeping me pointed in the right direction than a Sitex or Comnav or any other more 'basic' unit??
This will be my first autopilot so I'm hoping those with more experience or knowledge can help me decide.

I did a bit of sleuthing this morning over coffee. This drive unit (HERE) appears to be most commonly installed on sailboats. You are right - expensive kit (Drive is $1700, controls are $3500). What type of steering do you have on your GB32? A part of me says 'a drive is a drive and any control will manage it.' Another part of me looks at this particular one says 'whoa.....this may be a bit more proprietary and best served by a hand-in-glove controller.'

Is there a reason you must use this drive unit? I could see it being useful if you have an older chain/shaft drive steering system. If other GB32s are using something different, maybe you could sell this drive unit and opt for a total replacement? Otherwise, I'd be a bit reluctant to go outside of the Raymarine controller on this one - just seems a bit of a matched set.

Peter

 

[Bmarler]

If all you want is point and shoot autopilot, almost anything that has switched outputs will work. To handle the extra power draw you can install relays to handle the current spikes so the controller will never see them.
I’ve even seen the old autohelm 3000 or 4000 used in that type of situation. Doesn’t get more basic than that.

 

[Portage_Bay]

If you use relays, a very good idea to protect the autopilot from current spikes, I have a suggestion to improve redundancy in the relays. When the autopilot is working hard the relays can get burned. Not big concern but it can happen.

Use the older style heavy duty 8 pin relay and base. A pair, one for left signal and one for right signal. Looking at the wiring diagram you'll see there are two switched contacts per relay. For one signal use the 1-3-4 set of pins, for the other signal use the 8-6-5 set of pins. Should a relay bite the dust and you just need to get going again as fast as possible simply move the relays from one socket to the other. Of course buy a spare set of relays as well.

 

[twistedtree]

If you use relays, a very good idea to protect the autopilot from current spikes, I have a suggestion to improve redundancy in the relays. When the autopilot is working hard the relays can get burned. Not big concern but it can happen.

Use the older style heavy duty 8 pin relay and base. A pair, one for left signal and one for right signal. Looking at the wiring diagram you'll see there are two switched contacts per relay. For one signal use the 1-3-4 set of pins, for the other signal use the 8-6-5 set of pins. Should a relay bite the dust and you just need to get going again as fast as possible simply move the relays from one socket to the other. Of course buy a spare set of relays as well.

I’m pretty sure that chain drive is a reversing motor just like most hydraulic steering pumps. So the electrical drive to it is variable and reversing voltage and not suitable for relays. Relays would be suitable for a continuous running pump, but the pumps I’ve seen like that have the relays built in.

 

[Mike GB32]

Thanks, guys, for the interest.
I can provide more clarity: My issue is not really the size or type of the drive. I did some research and I spoke to Raymarine. Its better to go oversized than undersized with the drive. In fact, they say that one cause of drive failure is the drive being undersized and heating up from working too hard. So, I'm OK with the fact that the drive is overkill.
-The boat has the old cable steering, so I'm good there.
-I do understand that the new ACU would have to be matched as far as power output. I would confirm that with the manufacturer of the new ACU.
-I do all my navigating on iPads so networking is not what I'm lookin for.
What I'm concerned about is the ability of a simpler, lesser priced, more bare-boned autopilot to hold a heading in -say- rough following seas.
Do I need to spend a ton of money to buy a good autopilot?

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks, guys, for the interest.
I can provide more clarity: My issue is not really the size or type of the drive. I did some research and I spoke to Raymarine. Its better to go oversized than undersized with the drive. In fact, they say that one cause of drive failure is the drive being undersized and heating up from working too hard. So, I'm OK with the fact that the drive is overkill.
-The boat has the old cable steering, so I'm good there.
-I do understand that the new ACU would have to be matched as far as power output. I would confirm that with the manufacturer of the new ACU.
-I do all my navigating on iPads so networking is not what I'm lookin for.
What I'm concerned about is the ability of a simpler, lesser priced, more bare-boned autopilot to hold a heading in -say- rough following seas.
Do I need to spend a ton of money to buy a good autopilot?

I haven't done any pricing in a while. Is a Comnav really much less than a Raymarine or other brand, accounting for the required rate compass, rudder position sensor, and possible/probably GPS input? I just don't know how much you are really saving. I think all pilots will follow a chart plotter route if set up to do so, so there really aren't features like that that can be omitted for savings.

 

[Mike GB32]

Would one control unit maker have more sophisticated electronics than another?
Would more sophisticated electronics be better able to keep a heading?

 

[Portage_Bay]

Yes, you're probably right. I was thinking of the old heavy duty constant running systems. A different animal to be sure.

I’m pretty sure that chain drive is a reversing motor just like most hydraulic steering pumps. So the electrical drive to it is variable and reversing voltage and not suitable for relays. Relays would be suitable for a continuous running pump, but the pumps I’ve seen like that have the relays built in.

 

[Portage_Bay]

If OP is willing to do the installation and take a risk on used gear there is $$$ to be saved. I did just that when my antique Wesmar autopilot died. Gotta download the manual for any given pilot of interest to be sure it will work with the rotary drive. There is a used autopilot in the classifieds here, I have no idea if it will work with a rotary drive.

 

[Mike GB32]

Portage Bay- thanks for the tip.
Normally I would be happy to take a look at used gear.
That's how I got his rotary drive
But in this case I'd like to couple it with the most modern, up to-date electronics that I can afford.
Therein lies my dilemma- do I splurge for the color control head and and other features that I don't need or go with something more bare bones. I would love to use something like the Pelagic but right now (as far as I know) they're only tested on sailboats.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I'm not familiar with the Pelagic system. If you're looking at new why not go with a Raymarine system designed to work with you rotary drive?

 

[Mike GB32]

Click on 'Pelagic' in my last post. That'll take you to the website. You'll see the difference. Half the price... Not as many bells and whistles...

 

[sean9c]

That Type 2 drive only draws 7 amps at 12vdc. The Pelagic is rated at 25amps so that works. I'm not familiar with Pelagic, it'd be fun to try. Another though more expensive option might be the Sitex SP-70 or 80, they're make by Comnav so you know they're good and would be easy to get tech support. They'll drive 20amps. I tried to find tech info on the drive, the Raymarine manual I found was pretty pathetic but it did show that there was a clutch wire. Makes sense or whenever you're steering you're spinning the drive motor. You might want to figure out how that clutch is wired, I think most a/p's will actuate a clutch but you might double check on the one you chose.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Click on 'Pelagic' in my last post. That'll take you to the website. You'll see the difference. Half the price... Not as many bells and whistles...

Yes, I can read the specs. It should work. When I say I'm not familiar with Pelagic I'm saying I've never used a Pelagic autopilot, don't know anything about their quality of build or reputation. I"m familiar with Simrad, Sperry(actually a Japanese re-branded Tokyo Kieki), Comnav, Furuo and Raymarine listed in order of my hours / miles of usage. All good gear and there are others as well.

I can't tell you what to do, all I can do is offer opinions. I do see your point about keeping it simple. Not wanting all the integration with MFD or plotter, color displays etc. I had all that in my career and now really only use the autopilot to keep the boat pointed in the right direction. I also understand keeping the budget under control.

That said, in my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth, I'd go to the used market for a simple well built well supported with a good reputation autopilot.

Comnav may fit that bill if it will control a rotary drive. Certainly well built, supported and a good reputation. The older Comnav gear is as straight forward as they come. Used ones are not too hard to find. I came close to buying one, called Comnav and they were very helpful in figuring out what I needed but I went with Simrad instead. The Simrad was complete, the Comnave required chasing down some missing components.

One comment when shopping for used. The longer they are out of production the more expensive replacement components become. I put the Simrad in 2 yrs ago. Since then the price increse for components is concerning. I keep an eye out to maybe pick up some of the bits n pieces if they show up at a good price.

 

[SteveK]

I had an EV100 wheel drive on a 30 foot sailboat. It worked so well I had planned on putting one on the GB36 cable steering. IMO, it did not need a piston driver at the rudders any more than the sailboat which had a large rudder, compared to the small rudders on the GB. Steering the GB36 cable did not take any effort by hand. Travelling at trawler speed did not load the rudders.
IMO EV100 will work on a GB32. Flame away.

 

[twistedtree]

It looks like a Furuno NavPilot 300 would be about $2500 for a complete system including rudder feedback and rate compass, one control panel.


Are other products really much less?

 

[Portage_Bay]

It looks like a Furuno NavPilot 300 would be about $2500 for a complete system including rudder feedback and rate compass, one control panel.


Are other products really much less?

Probably nothing worth buying when looking at new. Will it control a rotary drive? Used if careful can save some $$. I kept the pump and helms, replaced the control panel, ACU, rudder feedback and rate compass for $500. As soon as you have to start adding components you begin to approach the cost of buying new.

 

[Mike GB32]

Yes, I can read the specs. It should work. When I say I'm not familiar with Pelagic I'm saying I've never used a Pelagic autopilot, don't know anything about their quality of build or reputation. I"m familiar with Simrad, Sperry(actually a Japanese re-branded Tokyo Kieki), Comnav, Furuo and Raymarine listed in order of my hours / miles of usage. All good gear and there are others as well.

I can't tell you what to do, all I can do is offer opinions. I do see your point about keeping it simple. Not wanting all the integration with MFD or plotter, color displays etc. I had all that in my career and now really only use the autopilot to keep the boat pointed in the right direction. I also understand keeping the budget under control.

That said, in my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth, I'd go to the used market for a simple well built well supported with a good reputation autopilot.

Comnav may fit that bill if it will control a rotary drive. Certainly well built, supported and a good reputation. The older Comnav gear is as straight forward as they come. Used ones are not too hard to find. I came close to buying one, called Comnav and they were very helpful in figuring out what I needed but I went with Simrad instead. The Simrad was complete, the Comnave required chasing down some missing components.

One comment when shopping for used. The longer they are out of production the more expensive replacement components become. I put the Simrad in 2 yrs ago. Since then the price increse for components is concerning. I keep an eye out to maybe pick up some of the bits n pieces if they show up at a good price.

So, it seems what your saying is that I shouldn't be as concerned about one manufacturer's quality being better than another as long as I find a compatible control that meets my needs and is within my budget. I appreciate your opinion.

Twistedtree- Thanks, I'll take a look at that Furuno.
.

 

[Portage_Bay]

So, it seems what your saying is that I shouldn't be as concerned about one manufacturer's quality being better than another as long as I find a compatible control that meets my needs and is within my budget. I appreciate your opinion.



Twistedtree- Thanks, I'll take a look at that Furuno.

.

That's not the point I'm trying to express. Of course quality matters. But baring objective tests all we have is a manufacturer's reputation and their accpetance in the market place. Largely those are opinions hopefully based on experience rather than repeating what some guy said. TT suggested Furuo, hard to beat anything Furuno for quailty and reputation. I suggested Comnav because you expressed your interest in a bare bones system. The Comnav 1001 is such an autopilot. Comnav also has a reputation for quailty. If you're going to mix and match autopilot with drive then you may well need support. My experience is that Furuno and Comnav do provide good support, even for no longer manufactured gear.

By needing to pair the autopilot to a rotary drive, expressing a desire for bare bones and trying to keep costs down you are limiting your options. Should you decide to go uses you are further limiting your optoins.

 

[grahamdouglass]

You should consider your overall navigation package

When I chose my auto pilot I went with Raymarine because my navigation package I have is Raymarine. So if there are issues between your chart plotter and your auto pilot they will probably be more easily solved if both your auto pilot and navigation suite are from the same manufacturer. There may also be more functionality between the two if they are both from the same manufacturer.

 

[SoWhat]

Would one control unit maker have more sophisticated electronics than another?
Would more sophisticated electronics be better able to keep a heading?

If one mfgr adds a track to waypoint feature, the others will soon follow.
Current technology with better gyros/compasses/gps integration will track better but how thin can you slice the bacon?

If price is a major concern then you need to evaluate by price, not features.

Raymarine Course computers (or core packs):
S3G - 2003 technology, requires fluxgate compass
SPX30 - 2007, requires fluxgate compass
ACU-400 - 2013, requires EV1

Raymarine compatible controllers:
St6002/ST7002/St8002
ST70

Installation would require some minimal seatalk wiring.
All units are available on EBay. Prices for older technology are usually reasonable.
I frequently use Navionics on my ipad but my Raymarine MFD offers charting, sonar, radar, and autopilot control in one place. I also have a P70Rs control head. Redundancy is a good thing to have. My ipad will overheat and shutdown if I use it on the bridge on a sunny day.

 

[Mike GB32]

Thank-you all for your advice and suggestions.
I've decided to spend a bit more than I originally wanted and maybe go with a Simrad Nac-3 autopilot, an AP44 controller and also a remote control. The specs match as far as output amps. So I sent an email to Simrad to verify and also tried to call and sat on hold for two hours two different times before giving up. I called the local West Marine and the salesman there agreed with me that my Raymarine drive and the Simrad controls should work well together.
But I just received a reply from Simrad with this short response: "Sorry but there would be no software compatibility between the two products. Raymarine and Simrad."
I realize I'm being stubborn here...but...what do you guys think?
Am I wrong thinking that a drive motor is a drive motor as long as the power requirements match? Has anyone else had a lousy experience with Simrad customer service?

 

[Portage_Bay]

I am successfully using the boat's old Wagner hydraulic pump with the used Simrad I installed. AP26 and AC40. I had the same thoughts as you that a drive motor is a drive motor as long as the controller can handle the current.

But yours is a wheel system is it not? Will your auto pilot control that kind of motor? I don't know. Just asking.

Regarding West Marine. I'd give more credibility to a local tech with experience in your autopilot.

 

[Mike GB32]

The drive is actually a rotary chain drive.
It's 3: 33 I've been on hold for Simrad tech since 11:30

 

[Mike GB32]

so my dilemma is- do I plop down over $3k for the Simrad without speaking to a tech because I think I know what I'm doing? or $4k for a Raymarine AP because they answer their d@#m phone!!? frustrating.

 

[Cigatoo]

so my dilemma is- do I plop down over $3k for the Simrad without speaking to a tech because I think I know what I'm doing? or $4k for a Raymarine AP because they answer their d@#m phone!!? frustrating.

Mike
Call Comnav directly on the west coast. They were very helpful. I spoke extensively with them years ago regarding the 40 year old (chain drive) motor in my GB. It is coupled with a 40 year old Sharp Autopilot. (I dare you to find one of those laying around . Lol) They specifically said don’t ever get rid of that electric motor. Those old motors in general are well built and easily repairable by any electric motor shop if need be. They are all pretty much the same and either 2 wire or 4 wire (don’t quote me on the numbers) motors and will work well with a Comnav controller. The Sharp still works and simply keeps the boat pointed in the intended direction so I haven’t parted with it.
Good luck.

 

[Mike GB32]

Carl- on your advice and that of Portage Bay, maybe I'll slow my roll and have another look at the Comnav.

 

[SoWhat]

Sorry but there would be no software compatibility between the two products. Raymarine and Simrad

Their answer is correct, no software compatibility between MFD's, but software is not involved in providing any information to the drive unit.
The course computer and controller communicate using software.

The course computer then sends 12V signal to drive unit. It's on or off. No software involved unless you want to connect everything to an MFD and I can't think of any compelling reason to do that other than convenience or redundancy (and of course all the bells and whistles)