autopilot install

[Duetto]

hi all,

we have a 2003 pilot 34 ht which came w/o an autopilot. i'm thinking about installing one and have a couple of questions: 1) where did the factory physically place the pump? i'm thinking i'll put it on the shelf where sterring ram is mounted. 2) does anyone know if the wiring looms were standardized? the boat has the gyro compass and course computer.

any help is welcome.

 

[Bacchus]

I can't help w wiring as mine was already installed.
Yes the shelf is where all the rudder / AP resides.
Mine is a 34HT not the 34P

 

[twistedtree]

hi all,

we have a 2003 pilot 34 ht which came w/o an autopilot. i'm thinking about installing one and have a couple of questions: 1) where did the factory physically place the pump? i'm thinking i'll put it on the shelf where sterring ram is mounted. 2) does anyone know if the wiring looms were standardized? the boat has the gyro compass and course computer.

any help is welcome.

It seems odd that a boat would have a course computer installed, but not the rest of the autopilot. Are you sure it's the course computer? Got a make/model?

 

[Duetto]

twistedtree

i think the compass & course computer are needed by the chartplotter to correctly orient the screen to heads up.

 

[wkearney99]

twistedtree

i think the compass & course computer are needed by the chartplotter to correctly orient the screen to heads up.

No, not really, the chart plotter can determine it's heading from a number of sources, most typically either a magnetic 'fluxgate' compass or an actual heading sensor. Or from GPS once the boat is moving. But for autopilot you usually need an actual heading sensor source of some kind.

A chart plotter is "the computer" that shows your position, charts and handles configuring routes. The legs of which get passed to an autopilot control "computer" that makes it happen.

In many autopilot situations you have two things involved in steering. One being the hydraulics used for the regular steering. The second being a separate pump that ties into the regular steering system. This to avoid duplicating the hydraulic ram needed to control the rudders. The autopilot controls that pump to move the rudder.

What chartplotter make/model do you have on the boat? That'd be your starting point. There are always integration issues that typically benefit from using either same brand gear or known-compatible pairings.

 

[Duetto]

thanks for the clarification. everything is raymarine circa 2003 (rl70c chartplotter, flugate, course computer, rudder indicator). hydraulics are seastar.

i know getting compatible raymarine components for that vintage will be a challenge. also where to put pump will be a compromise between making hydraulic connections simple vs snaking wire from pump to the course computer.

 

[wkearney99]

That "course computer", which make/model? It would really help if you included part or model numbers of the various pieces onboard.

It would be VERY odd for an actual course computer to be installed without the rest of the autopilot components, like the pump. But you never know what previous owners might have done...

By the time you cobbled together enough of the vintage pieces necessary to get "something" operating you'd still only have vintage gear and the limits that came with it. And you'd be at the mercy of finding more of it WHEN the pieces die.

 

[Bacchus]

In addition to AP that system is the only rudder indicator on some boats. I dont know if a simpler / less $$ system could provide rudder position w/o the AP function?

 

[wkearney99]

I have an analog rudder sensor on my EB47. It provides a signal to both flybridge and lower helm stations. It's entirely separate from the N2K or 0183 networks. I believe it's from VDO.

For autopilot I had a separate Simrad RF300 rudder sensor that fed into a Simrad autopilot computer and AP26 remotes. That was tied back into my Furuno NavNet3D chartplotters via 0183.

I've since replaced that Simrad gear with a new Furuno NavPilot 300, which also has it's own rudder sensor connected to the pilot computer; which in turn is connected to everything else via N2K.

 

[Duetto]

wkearney99...sorry not on boat and it's under the companion way steps, so it's not easy to get at but when i get to the boat i will dig out doc which i do have.

 

[SoWhat]

thanks for the clarification. everything is raymarine circa 2003 (rl70c chartplotter, flugate, course computer, rudder indicator). hydraulics are seastar.

i know getting compatible raymarine components for that vintage will be a challenge. also where to put pump will be a compromise between making hydraulic connections simple vs snaking wire from pump to the course computer.

If Seastar hydraullics were installed and a rudder indicator it is likely that a complete system was once present. PO probably removed pump due to leakage. The systems is several generations old but should be serviceable.

Used Raymarine Type 1 pumps are still current. $7-800 new, $300 used on EBay. You will also need a controller (or Pilot Head) St6001,7001, 8001 models should all work. Only available used on EBay.

(You really need to match the pump to the size of the ram so if there is a label still present that would help. Same with the course computer. Should be a model name right on the cover. An S1G only works with ST6001. S2 or S3 works with any of the controllers.)

 

[wkearney99]

Right, so it IS likely one of Raymarine's autopilot computers. Get a picture of it, and perhaps more importantly, get a picture how the wires are connected to it. That'll give you an indication as to what has already been wired up for it. Look up the model number of the unit and check the manual and/or installation guide for it.

Box

That'll give you better idea of what might actually be present (or not) if there's wires connected for it. If you don't see any wires on the Drive Motor Output connections then you likely don't have a pump already. if you DO have wires.. then you're on a bug hunt to find they go and, potentially, where the pump should be.

I'd be surprised if that much of the system was installed without a pump. Just to get rudder/heading data? I mean, stranger things have been done to boats, I guess...

 

[Lshulan]

I've been reading this thread with interest as I just purchased a 390 that doesn't have an AP and I wasn't sure where to begin. The PO says she weighs 27,000 lbs loaded so Raymarine says I need an EV400 I believe. Has anyone done this install from scratch on this model MS and can give me some overall understanding of the process? For example, where do you tap into the hydraulic lines, at the helm(s) or at the ram? If you had it done professionally, any idea as to cost?

 

[mvweebles]

I've been reading this thread with interest as I just purchased a 390 that doesn't have an AP and I wasn't sure where to begin. The PO says she weighs 27,000 lbs loaded so Raymarine says I need an EV400 I believe. Has anyone done this install from scratch on this model MS and can give me some overall understanding of the process? For example, where do you tap into the hydraulic lines, at the helm(s) or at the ram? If you had it done professionally, any idea as to cost?

Pardon my jumping in without direct knowledge of a Mainship, but you do not need to match the A/P with your old system. You could install any A/P and interface to your Raymarine system via NMEA 0183. The communication strings between chart plotter and A/P are relatively simple and they work together pretty well. If you see a future electronics upgrade in your future, you may want to make selection based on that future decision (nobreason you couldnt run a Simrad A/P if you so desired). If you want a standalone system, tough to beat Comnav.

Best guess on costs: any of the A/P systems with pump with display, rudder unit, some sort basic upper helm unit, etc. is roughly in the $3k range. Professional install would be roughly double that assuming no complications.

Good luck

Peter

 

[Lshulan]

Thanks - I'm not certain I want to go with Raymarine, just had one on a previous boat and never had any issues. I'm looking for someone with a 390 install regardless of what brand, just trying to understand basics. But thanks for the info, appreciate it

 

[Duetto]

lshulan, seastar recos placing the pump as close to the ram as possible. on pilot running tubing out of helm area strikes me as a bear, not sure about 390. if you have flybridge it's even more tubing to snake.

 

[Lshulan]

So if the pump is at the stern, would only need to run wires to helms? And then to control unit and displays That would be much better. Thanks

 

[Duetto]

maybe. i have a question in to seastar tech support on whether i can use a bottle of steering fluid next to pump instead of snaking a 3rd tube to pump.

assuming they answer, i will post the answer.

 

[Portage_Bay]

The pump can go anywhere. On my current boat it is in the engine room more than 20ft from the ram. The advantage is easier access while plumbing in and far less corrosion long term. You'll need the same amount of tubing for either location because you will be tee-ing into the helm to ram tubing. Unless you don't want manual helm(s). Agree with mvweebles that the AP and plotter/MFD do not need to match. Almost every system I've used both work and pleasure boats are not matched.



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[Duetto]

per seastar, i can't use bottle of fluid. i has to be a hose from 3rd helm port to reservoir port on pump.

 

[Capt Ray]

Shellerina is a 2000 Mainship 390. It came to us with a 12" Raymarine Axiom chart plotter and transducer. No A/P. No AIS. We knew we wanted both for our Great Loop starting May 2021.

Normally, I am a DIY type guy. However, several persons recommended that I have the A/P system installed by a certified Raymarine shop. The MS390 is hydraulic steering with two helms [pumps] to start, and the A/P adds a 3rd 'PUMP', it involves adding a rudder sensor, and heading sensor, a "computer" and 1 or 2 control heads (we went with 2 one for each helm). There are hydraulics, mechanical, and electrical systems, and a failure of the hydraulic steering system underway was not something this DYI guy wanted to chance... at least for his first A/P, and first boat with hydraulic steering lines. Now that I've been an owner/user for over a year, perhaps I'd do my second one myself. I'm not sure.

Insurance companies like to see certified professional installs in case there is ever a claim!

I can get you part numbers if you are really interested in doing this yourself. But, I'll have to dig for them. Otherwise have your pro specify all the part numbers. It's a likely a $6K job.

For AIS we started off with the Raymarine 73 VHF with AIS receieve only. That was a snap to install and interface with Raymarine NMEA cables. Love it... and I like having two VHFs at the helm.

Then on the Loop we wanted to add AIS transmit as well. Went with EmTrak B924. I Love the Bluetooth/WiFi interface for iPhone and iPad use with Navionics and Aquamap apps. Plus can tap into an existing VHF antenna.

 

[Lshulan]

I am in agreement, originally thinking of diy but too many variables and when I get into hydraulics, I think it’s too much. Having just completed purchase, I will need to wait a bit but def next spring.

 

[Comodave]

I installed a Raymarine Evolution EV200 autopilot this past winter. I used the existing Type 1 pump. But went with a 200 in case I ever decide to upgrade the pump. Since I didn’t have to install the pump it was a very easy install. So far we love it.

 

[Duetto]

probably not doing it. snaking tubing for the reservoir return would be a bear. the rest of install is easy given what's installed on the boat.

 

[Lshulan]

I’m not sure what needs to be done as I am not familiar with the process but when you say you used the existing type 1 pump, what does that mean? My understanding was that you needed to tie into the two existing lines and also run a new line to the helm. Is that it?

 

[Duetto]

type 1 refers to the capacity of the pump. beyond that it is much as you say, but the devil is in the physical snaking hydraulic hoses and wires. all of this depends on what you have installed. we're "lucky" in that we have the course computer, gyro compass, and rudder indicator.

 

[Comodave]

There isn’t a line to the helm on mine. The pump is hooked to the lines going to the hydraulic cylinder. As said above a Type 1 pump is the size. My cylinder is just less than 15 cubic inches volume and type 1 is good up to 15 cubic inches. So I bought the Ev200 in case I decide to upgrade to a Type 2 pump the EV 200 will support it. But so far it is doing fine.

 

[boomerang]

There isn’t a line to the helm on mine. The pump is hooked to the lines going to the hydraulic cylinder. As said above a Type 1 pump is the size. My cylinder is just less than 15 cubic inches volume and type 1 is good up to 15 cubic inches. So I bought the Ev200 in case I decide to upgrade to a Type 2 pump the EV 200 will support it. But so far it is doing fine.

Dave,
You do have a return line from the pump to the reservoir, correct? I've seen pumps incorrectly plumbed into the steering without a return line and unbelievably they will work, but inevitability, the system will fail with no return line connected.
Also, the EV200 isn't rated for a bigger pump than a type 1. To use a type 2 pump without fear of burning up the motor drive fets, you would need an ev400. Just a fyi.

 

[Comodave]

I didn’t think there was one but honestly I am not sure now. It is buried in the back and all I did was replace the undersized wiring going to it with larger wiring. Maybe there is a return.

 

[Cold Duck]

I have a ST7001 on a 350. The pump is located in flybridge, less than foot run to system. I had to replace the computer (also located in flybridge) and got a whole system on ebay for $500 (except the pump). If you have everything else but pump and computer it would be a simple process to install in flybridge. The 350/390s are all wired to be run primarily from the flybridge. I added the extra control I got down in the salon which is a great help when docking and getting underway. Just knowing rudder position is of great help.