Batteries - where to locate them

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Lou_tribal

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Joined
Jan 20, 2016
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Location
Canada
Vessel Name
Bleuvet
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Custom Built
Hello fellow TFers!
Next spring I plan to modify my batteries setup in order to get a bit more "juice".
Currently my batteries are located in my ER on starboard side (house and start).
I have some space on port side where I can add more.
I also have a separate compartment forward from ER, curently used to store my hoses and power cord, that could be used to store all the batteries.
So my options are keep batteries in ER or relocate all.
About relocation:
pros - forward compartment is less warm than ER (even if ER is not so hot), batteries would be easy to access from top (hatch), compartment located right in the centerline so no unbalance.
cons - will need longer cables from charger (I may be able to relocate the charger in same compartment) and from alternator

Any advice between keeping things as is or relocating?

L.
 
Its preferable to keep batteries, chargers and inverters cool. Performance drops off for everything as temp rises.

But the battery space should also be well vented, even if using sealed batteries, and its not clear that is the case for you forward compartment.
 
You may need to upgrade your alternator (s) if you increase your amp hours. I just last week got a copy of the Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual by Nigel Calder. Anything you want to know about batteries and charging systems.
 
Its preferable to keep batteries, chargers and inverters cool. Performance drops off for everything as temp rises.

But the battery space should also be well vented, even if using sealed batteries, and its not clear that is the case for you forward compartment.

Indeed, my ER is well vented with my 2 blowers and 4 vents but the forward compartment is less vented. It is opened to the ER but via 2 smaller conduct and have no direct outlet.
This is one of cons I did not mention above.

L
 
You may need to upgrade your alternator (s) if you increase your amp hours. I just last week got a copy of the Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual by Nigel Calder. Anything you want to know about batteries and charging systems.

I have the Calder's and it is a very good and complete reference, however like any other reference it cannot cover all configuration and situation so my question.
Before planning to upgrade my alternator, what would be costly, I need first to find my current alt. output.

L.
 
There are many things to consider, Lou.

Low and on the centreline is good.
If possible, I'd suggest relocating your charger rather than extending the cables.

I moved my batteries away from the engine for better access. It allowed me to crawl alongside and get close and personal in my small engine "room". Previously the two battery boxes blocked access, and I had to do all maintenance by reaching down from above.
 
The issue with the fwd compartment location seems to be airflow, maybe look at improving it. Vents high and low with the ER should give convection effect.
Consider a second charger. Wherever you move the existing one it will have an extended run to one or other bank. And can it serve another bank?
Can`t see getting around longer battery cables, though that should be ok. The cables should be well protected where they pass through bulkhead panels.
The alternator may have its output or at least the model, marked on it.
 
Be sure to wire in the Field Disconnect on the rotary switch for the start batts,

OR a bad move could cost the alt diodes .

A few feet of #14 wire could save a hundred bucks or more.
 
Currently my batteries are located in my ER on starboard side (house and start).
I have some space on port side where I can add more.
I also have a separate compartment forward from ER, curently used to store my hoses and power cord, that could be used to store all the batteries.
So my options are keep batteries in ER or relocate all.
About relocation:
pros - forward compartment is less warm than ER (even if ER is not so hot), batteries would be easy to access from top (hatch), compartment located right in the centerline so no unbalance.
cons - will need longer cables from charger (I may be able to relocate the charger in same compartment) and from alternator


An easy (the easiest?) option might be to split your current banks so that starting (and genset?) is on one side and house is on the other. And then that might also allow you space to increase your house bank even more. That might or might not effect boat balance, depending on whether there's already something on your port side that's offsetting the current starboard location.

If you can improve ventilation in the forward space, anther possible pro might be that you can easily service wet batteries... so save some $$$ on the batteries themselves.

FWIW, our original charger wasn't particularly close to our three battery banks. Didn't notice much of an issue with that. And out alternators are very close to the batteries, so maybe that compensates...

You could consider taking the opportunity to increase your charging capability, maybe. Use the original charger for one bank (your start bank?), and add an inverter/charger for the house (located very near that bank). Which could also give you an inverter in the system, if that'd be useful.

-Chris
 
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There are many things to consider, Lou.

Low and on the centreline is good.
If possible, I'd suggest relocating your charger rather than extending the cables.

I moved my batteries away from the engine for better access. It allowed me to crawl alongside and get close and personal in my small engine "room". Previously the two battery boxes blocked access, and I had to do all maintenance by reaching down from above.



It would be the same for me, by moving the batteries out of the way I would gain access to the engine from the side. Currently the starboard side is occupied by the charger, 2 group 31 and the starter batteries.

L
 
The issue with the fwd compartment location seems to be airflow, maybe look at improving it. Vents high and low with the ER should give convection effect.
Consider a second charger. Wherever you move the existing one it will have an extended run to one or other bank. And can it serve another bank?
Can`t see getting around longer battery cables, though that should be ok. The cables should be well protected where they pass through bulkhead panels.
The alternator may have its output or at least the model, marked on it.



The ER and forward compartment are separated by the holding tank. There are opening on the side and bottom of the holding tank but it is not really vented per say, there is no direct vent to the outside.
I will need to replace my charger or add a second one as at 20Amp it would be on the low side of the scale if I add some juice. I may keep this one for the starter battery and add one for the house, not sure yet.

L
 
Be sure to wire in the Field Disconnect on the rotary switch for the start batts,

OR a bad move could cost the alt diodes .

A few feet of #14 wire could save a hundred bucks or more.



Yes it is wired and I take great care not to play with this switch. In fact I never used it yet as I never add any issue of depleted start batterie that would require help from house bank.

L
 
An easy (the easiest?) option might be to split your current banks so that starting (and genset?) is on one side and house is on the other. And then that might also allow you space to increase your house bank even more. That might or might not effect boat balance, depending on whether there's already something on your port side that's offsetting the current starboard location.

If you can improve ventilation in the forward space, anther possible pro might be that you can easily service wet batteries... so save some $$$ on the batteries themselves.

FWIW, our original charger wasn't particularly close to our three battery banks. Didn't notice much of an issue with that. And out alternators are very close to the batteries, so maybe that compensates...

You could consider taking the opportunity to increase your charging capability, maybe. Use the original charger for one bank (your start bank?), and add an inverter/charger for the house (located very near that bank). Which could also give you an inverter in the system, if that'd be useful.

-Chris


I have only a baby Yamaha generator aboard so no genset battery. Like you mentioned the benefit I see with forward compartment is easy access from above as currently the way the batteries are setup it is a real pita to access them. I am pretty sure I will need to increase my charging capacity as if not it will take days to get a full charge back. But as my typical usage curently is 2 to 3 days at anchor followed by weekdays at the dock it may not be an issue. I may start first by keeping the same charger ( capable of 2 banks charging) and add a new one later if needed.

Thank you all for comments, much appreciated as usually.

L
 
So much to think about when moving battery banks while upgrading the system. It's a big step to recable the large cables. How far do you want to go? If you do it right the first time, future upgrades and mods will become possible without major headaches.

Have you considered all of these issues?

Weight transfer effect on lateral balance/listing?
Venting (not critical with AGMs)
Temps
Access (especially important with FLA)
New maintenance requirements
New charging requirements
Batt size to maximize space efficiency but manageable weight/size
cable length and size re: 3% loss
Battery switching and location of switches
Need ability to tie banks for start?
Shore charger quality and capacity
Alternator quality and capacity
Alternator recabling direct to batts?
External or internal alt voltage regulation
Combiner vs isolator vs neither
Costs
Yamaha gen continuous load limits for shore charger sizing
Inverter?

I dealt with all these issues in advance of my major recable job and proceeded with the project in stages to allow me to phase in all the upgrades over time. In my case, the planning started with the physics of the job (size and access, battery, cable and switch location) then moved to my electrical needs and wishes via a detailed schematic. From that schematic, I was able to source components and prices and plan the stages of upgrade.

Maybe it's easier to do it all at once, but my budget wouldn't allow it.
 
So much to think about when moving battery banks while upgrading the system. It's a big step to recable the large cables. How far do you want to go? If you do it right the first time, future upgrades and mods will become possible without major headaches.

Have you considered all of these issues?

Weight transfer effect on lateral balance/listing?
Venting (not critical with AGMs)
Temps
Access (especially important with FLA)
New maintenance requirements
New charging requirements
Batt size to maximize space efficiency but manageable weight/size
cable length and size re: 3% loss
Battery switching and location of switches
Need ability to tie banks for start?
Shore charger quality and capacity
Alternator quality and capacity
Alternator recabling direct to batts?
External or internal alt voltage regulation
Combiner vs isolator vs neither
Costs
Yamaha gen continuous load limits for shore charger sizing
Inverter?

I dealt with all these issues in advance of my major recable job and proceeded with the project in stages to allow me to phase in all the upgrades over time. In my case, the planning started with the physics of the job (size and access, battery, cable and switch location) then moved to my electrical needs and wishes via a detailed schematic. From that schematic, I was able to source components and prices and plan the stages of upgrade.

Maybe it's easier to do it all at once, but my budget wouldn't allow it.



You are right so many things to think about and I often tend to overthink too much :)
So let see some answers:
1. How far: forward compartment is around 4 to 5 feet from where the batteries are currently, and also 4 feet from the alt and the charger.

2. Weight transfer: new place is right on centerline, mid ship so balance would be nice. Removing 2 group 31 from ER starboard would certainly have an effect and on port I have a 11gal water heater. This could be compensated by storing tools and heavy stuff in place of the batteries.

3. Venting: this is my main concern, may be addressed by running a duct on the side of holding tank if space permit, this is something I will need to check.

4. Temp: will be lower in new place, even if my ER is not getting really hot, it remains that the ER is warmer than the forwards compartment.

5. Accessibility: would be far better in forward compartment.

6. Maintenance: not more than current.

7. New charging requirements: May need more beefy charger this could be addressed as a second step. Don’t want to change the alt though.

8. Battery size: would be a bunch of gc2.

9. Switch is in fact not nearer to the forward compartment than the current batteries location.

10. Ability to tie house bank to start: this is currently the case but never needed to combine house and start to startup. Hopefully will never have but who knows.

11. Shore charger: current one is a marine 20 amp 2 banks charger. Not brand new but working fine. Depending on the need I will see to replace or add a second one ( think of a 60 amp one) but plan this as a second step if the one I have does not meet the need.

12. Alt: it is new and working fine but still need to find capacity. Will check this when the ice melt :)

13. Alt recabling: think to keep the same cabling model if I can say just replace cables and reroute to new location.

14. Int/ext voltage regulator: to my current knowledge it is internal but need to confirm

15. Combiner/isolator/none: currently have a diode isolator, not the optimal setup though. May opt for something smarter that could still keep some bucks in my wallet :)

16. Costs: always a big consideration. Highest cost will be batteries. Some cable cost do not really matter. Would not want to change the alt though. Just want to keep this under control.

17. Yamaha baby gen is continuous 1400watts 110v. Only used in case of but not a regular use. Plan is to add solar as a phase 2 of the improvement plans

18. Inverter not needed at this point, everything runs out of 12v aboard. May think to add a small one to run the expresso machine but not sure I want to go that way.


Like you mentioned I look at this to be done in steps and to do it right.
I will for sure make a schematic of what I plan and post it here ( will take some time though but no hurry boat is wrapped for some months now)

L
 
You are right so many things to think about and I often tend to overthink too much :)
So let see some answers:
1. How far: forward compartment is around 4 to 5 feet from where the batteries are currently, and also 4 feet from the alt and the charger.

2. Weight transfer: new place is right on centerline, mid ship so balance would be nice. Removing 2 group 31 from ER starboard would certainly have an effect and on port I have a 11gal water heater. This could be compensated by storing tools and heavy stuff in place of the batteries.

3. Venting: this is my main concern, may be addressed by running a duct on the side of holding tank if space permit, this is something I will need to check.

4. Temp: will be lower in new place, even if my ER is not getting really hot, it remains that the ER is warmer than the forwards compartment.

5. Accessibility: would be far better in forward compartment.

6. Maintenance: not more than current.

7. New charging requirements: May need more beefy charger this could be addressed as a second step. Don’t want to change the alt though.

8. Battery size: would be a bunch of gc2.

9. Switch is in fact not nearer to the forward compartment than the current batteries location.

10. Ability to tie house bank to start: this is currently the case but never needed to combine house and start to startup. Hopefully will never have but who knows.

11. Shore charger: current one is a marine 20 amp 2 banks charger. Not brand new but working fine. Depending on the need I will see to replace or add a second one ( think of a 60 amp one) but plan this as a second step if the one I have does not meet the need.

12. Alt: it is new and working fine but still need to find capacity. Will check this when the ice melt :)

13. Alt recabling: think to keep the same cabling model if I can say just replace cables and reroute to new location.

14. Int/ext voltage regulator: to my current knowledge it is internal but need to confirm

15. Combiner/isolator/none: currently have a diode isolator, not the optimal setup though. May opt for something smarter that could still keep some bucks in my wallet :)

16. Costs: always a big consideration. Highest cost will be batteries. Some cable cost do not really matter. Would not want to change the alt though. Just want to keep this under control.

17. Yamaha baby gen is continuous 1400watts 110v. Only used in case of but not a regular use. Plan is to add solar as a phase 2 of the improvement plans

18. Inverter not needed at this point, everything runs out of 12v aboard. May think to add a small one to run the expresso machine but not sure I want to go that way.


Like you mentioned I look at this to be done in steps and to do it right.
I will for sure make a schematic of what I plan and post it here ( will take some time though but no hurry boat is wrapped for some months now)

L

IIRC this project arose out of your quest for enough power to run your fridge.
Did you ever determine what amperage your fridge requires, how much of the time it is drawing that amperage? That seems to me to be the basic starting point. I am also convinced that replacing a power hogging fridge is much better than beefing up all of your power systems to make a power hog happy. I say this from some experience: When new to me, my boat had an inadequate power system for the requirements of the fridge. I had a "marine 40 amp charger", a pair of ordinary alternators, putting out the usual OEM amperage, about 50 per side, but through the usual OEM regulators, so incapable of charging the house batteries. Those were a pair of 8Ds, not even deep cycle, and a second bank - pair of 4Ds, again not even deep cycle. There was a generator but the charger limited its usefulness to a max of about 35 amps, dropping quickly to an average input to the batteries of 20 amps.
Once I learned a little about the systems, over a period of several years, I made some very drastic changes and some very simple changes.

1 Got rid of the power hog fridge. It drew over 10 amps when running, and ran more than 1/2 of the time. I now have a DC only, Danfoss, drawing 2.7 amps, less than 1/2 the time.

2 Got rid of the second battery bank. No longer required

3 Changed the primary House batteries to 4x 6v GC. Not stressed, as I recently replaced them after over 10 years of great service.

4 Added a "Smart" regulator. Mine is from Ample Power, but there are several good ones out there. Other than changing the fridge this is the most significant change you can make, and should be your top priority. All input power should come through a "Smart" three stage charging system.

5 Got rid of the "Marine charger". Its characteristics may work for a boat that is always plugged in, but if you spend any time on the hook, extends the required charging time unnecessarily, as it limits the amps that your batteries can receive to fit its own profile. In your case, 20 amps will slow your charging to around 10 amps, so that you will need to be plugged in for a week between usages of your boat.

6 installed a new, "Smart", three stage charger capable of delivering 90 amps continuously. It is rated at 100 amps. This also has the added benefit of giving me a 100 amp inverter, so I can use the microwave without running the genset.

7 installed a large capacity alternator, 130 amps, feeding through the "Smart" regulator, so that feed is not cut off after starting the engines, as the old alternator/regulator combination was set up to do.

8 installed a battery monitor, to keep an eye on what was actually going on. Mine is also from Ample Power, but there are several good ones out there. This is the least important part of the electrical refit.

9 installed a highly visible voltmeter as a quick reference to battery condition.

With the change in the fridge, all of the other changes became simple. I did most of these changes in the first 5 years of owning the boat, so have had 15 or more years to test the reliability of the rest of the system and I am happy with all of it.

I think the changes you are proposing for your boat would be much simpler if you tried a similar approach.

I hope I haven't misinterpreted what I have read in your posts and if so I apologise for going way off in the wrong direction.
 
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IIRC this project arose out of your quest for enough power to run your fridge.
Did you ever determine what amperage your fridge requires, how much of the time it is drawing that amperage? That seems to me to be the basic starting point. I am also convinced that replacing a power hogging fridge is much better than beefing up all of your power systems to make a power hog happy. I say this from some experience: When new to me, my boat had an inadequate power system for the requirements of the fridge. I had a "marine 40 amp charger", a pair of ordinary alternators, putting out the usual OEM amperage, about 50 per side, but through the usual OEM regulators, so incapable of charging the house batteries. Those were a pair of 8Ds, not even deep cycle, and a second bank - pair of 4Ds, again not even deep cycle. There was a generator but the charger limited its usefulness to a max of about 35 amps, dropping quickly to an average input to the batteries of 20 amps.
Once I learned a little about the systems, over a period of several years, I made some very drastic changes and some very simple changes.

1 Got rid of the power hog fridge. It drew over 10 amps when running, and ran more than 1/2 of the time. I now have a DC only, Danfoss, drawing 2.7 amps, less than 1/2 the time.

2 Got rid of the second battery bank. No longer required

3 Changed the primary House batteries to 4x 6v GC. Not stressed, as I recently replaced them after over 10 years of great service.

4 Added a "Smart" regulator. Mine is from Ample Power, but there are several good ones out there. Other than changing the fridge this is the most significant change you can make, and should be your top priority. All input power should come through a "Smart" three stage charging system.

5 Got rid of the "Marine charger". Its characteristics may work for a boat that is always plugged in, but if you spend any time on the hook, extends the required charging time unnecessarily, as it limits the amps that your batteries can receive to fit its own profile. In your case, 20 amps will slow your charging to around 10 amps, so that you will need to be plugged in for a week between usages of your boat.

6 installed a new, "Smart", three stage charger capable of delivering 90 amps continuously. It is rated at 100 amps. This also has the added benefit of giving me a 100 amp inverter, so I can use the microwave without running the genset.

7 installed a large capacity alternator, 130 amps, feeding through the "Smart" regulator, so that feed is not cut off after starting the engines, as the old alternator/regulator combination was set up to do.

8 installed a battery monitor, to keep an eye on what was actually going on. Mine is also from Ample Power, but there are several good ones out there. This is the least important part of the electrical refit.

9 installed a highly visible voltmeter as a quick reference to battery condition.

With the change in the fridge, all of the other changes became simple. I did most of these changes in the first 5 years of owning the boat, so have had 15 or more years to test the reliability of the rest of the system and I am happy with all of it.

I think the changes you are proposing for your boat would be much simpler if you tried a similar approach.

I hope I haven't misinterpreted what I have read in your posts and if so I apologise for going way off in the wrong direction.



No apologizes needed and thank you for your input.
You are right all this came first from this damned fridge :) But thinking about this made me also think to the batteries location and was wondering if it would not be a good idea to move them.
Like I wrote, I often maybe think too much :D

L
 
Lou,now Koliver has as if by magic distilled the "why", why not make that your first area of attention. With an efficient fridge your problem might disappear, and if it doesn`t totally resolve power issues, whatever you do add should have you at anchor well refrigerated much longer. Lots of frig threads, though many from unhappy users.
 
Lou,now Koliver has as if by magic distilled the "why", why not make that your first area of attention. With an efficient fridge your problem might disappear, and if it doesn`t totally resolve power issues, whatever you do add should have you at anchor well refrigerated much longer. Lots of frig threads, though many from unhappy users.

Yup totally agree still need to assess my freaking fridge appetite for amps (what will be done when I will unfreeze). However even if I stay with the same battery setup it may be a good setup to change location and I still would juice this up a bit. This is really not that I am power hungry as I have the minimum aboard (basically fridge, led lights and charging my tablet) and very energy conservative (not my style to light outside just for the beauty of my boat to shine) but just to stay a bit longer off grid without genset running (current setup is 220 Ah).

By the way there is no magic (sorry KOliver you did not ask me to be your agent like Oudini lol) he did just read one of my other thread :)

L
 
My 34 LRC runs with 2 fridges to be able to match load and purpose during varying cruising/fishing needs.

During the 'cold' weather fishing season, I use the 120V fridge for bait and beer fridge. It's a big hit with my fishing buddies and is very practical. We relocate several times a day so the house bank barely gets challenged with its regular recharging from the Balmar. The 12v/120V NovaKool cares for my food only.

During the hot summer months, I carry a cooler with ice for the IPAs (no bait, typically) and use the 120V fridge for food overload on long trips. If the food needs subside and the ice stays frozen, I shut down the 120V beast. (~150-180AH/day!) Later, if the ice runs out and there's a threat that the IPAs might warm to 40*F+, I'll fire up the beast for a just cause.

My point is that is you can design a system with the flexibility to safely meet your load and charging needs, even with varying demands and charging sources, you'll find that sweet spot in the land of electrons.

It's nice to have flexibility.
 
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Greetings,
Mr. L_t. I can't remember how your boat is set up BUT have you considered locations other than the forward compartment? Lazerette? Flybrige? There ARE issues with alternate locations as has been mentioned but have you considered ALL the places they may fit regardless of extra wiring or balance? Maybe under your fly bridge seating?

It is ALWAYS a good thing to maximize space around your engine. All that being said, they've lived where they are for years so the choice is yours...
 
IIRC this project arose out of your quest for enough power to run your fridge.

Lou,now Koliver has as if by magic distilled the "why", why not make that your first area of attention. With an efficient fridge your problem might disappear, and if it doesn`t totally resolve power issues, whatever you do add should have you at anchor well refrigerated much longer. Lots of frig threads, though many from unhappy users.

Yup totally agree still need to assess my freaking fridge appetite for amps (what will be done when I will unfreeze).


What the heck is the beast of a fridge that's driving all this?

Have to admit, I've not had to buy a clue about our fridges' DC consumption, given our battery evolution that was also for other reasons.

-Chris
 
Greetings,
Mr. L_t. I can't remember how your boat is set up BUT have you considered locations other than the forward compartment? Lazerette? Flybrige? There ARE issues with alternate locations as has been mentioned but have you considered ALL the places they may fit regardless of extra wiring or balance? Maybe under your fly bridge seating?

It is ALWAYS a good thing to maximize space around your engine. All that being said, they've lived where they are for years so the choice is yours...



I thought about locating them under the bed in the aft cabin, on one side they would be right on center line, on the other side long running cables and worse I would loose my wine storage!
One drawback on putting them on the forward compartment is they would be over the speed/depth transducers so in case of any issue I would need to remove the batteries to get to them (pretty rare though)
In the ER temp is higher and access a bit more tedious.

Lot of thing to consider, matter for thought.

L
 
What the heck is the beast of a fridge that's driving all this?



Have to admit, I've not had to buy a clue about our fridges' DC consumption, given our battery evolution that was also for other reasons.



-Chris



Well chain of thought... was willing to increase my battery bank because the current config gives me only 1 day (in the best condition) of autonomy because of the fridge... so was thinking where to locate new batteries... and so the thread. :)

L
 
Well chain of thought... was willing to increase my battery bank because the current config gives me only 1 day (in the best condition) of autonomy because of the fridge... so was thinking where to locate new batteries... and so the thread. :)


Are there any new fridges -- compared to your current one -- that would offer you more time with no change to your battery configuration?

If so, how much better could it get?

I don't actually how long we can go on batteries; we need to cook (electric) and make hot water (electric)... so we have to run the genset 2x/day no matter what the fridges are doing to us. When we added battery capacity, that wasn't about fridges; instead, it was all about electronics and adding an inverter -- for microwave popcorn in the afternoon, and morning coffee before genset start-up time. :)

-Chris
 
Are there any new fridges -- compared to your current one -- that would offer you more time with no change to your battery configuration?



If so, how much better could it get?



I don't actually how long we can go on batteries; we need to cook (electric) and make hot water (electric)... so we have to run the genset 2x/day no matter what the fridges are doing to us. When we added battery capacity, that wasn't about fridges; instead, it was all about electronics and adding an inverter -- for microwave popcorn in the afternoon, and morning coffee before genset start-up time. :)



-Chris



To answer your question There is certainly capacity for improvement on the side of my fridge as it is something like 20years old but what would be the improvement I am not. To be able to answer that I will first need to measure its amp draw. One sure thing though is that any replacement will not be cheap. Any replacement would be min 1000$+ here.

Only need for power at anchor for me is fridge, lights (all 12v led so minimal draw), fresh water/head pump and tv (barely used). No oven, no microwave, no electric coffee machine, no electronic gizmo running with engine off, I am a caveman ;)

L
 
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