Boeing Banter:Split from Inflatable Boats

[Marin]

Every time i break down and buy chineese it always seems to end like your experiance. I guess they want us to just keep buying and buying

Then you better stay off Boeing and Airbus planes. All of them have major components and assemblies made in China.

 

[bfloyd4445]

Then you better stay off Boeing and Airbus planes. All of them have major components and assemblies made in China.

yes and all of them have redundant systems in case of failure. I'm sorry, i will never buy chineese anything without searching the ends of the earth first for an alternative. Failing in this quest i will buy a part made by a reputable company in a country based in a country that has enviromental qand human rights policies that i aprove of. China will never be one of isnt liekly to ever be one of those countries.

 

[SomeSailor]

Then you better stay off Boeing and Airbus planes. All of them have major components and assemblies made in China.

I'll call ya on that one. What major assembly of a Boeing aircraft is built in China?

Wing? Fuselage? Engines? Avionics? Fuel System? Hydraulics? Tires? Landing Gear? Interior?

You need to share this with us... I think you're incorrect.

 

[Marin]

We have shot footage in and done videos about the Chinese factories that make, among other things, the horizontal and vertical stabilizers for the 737, composite and aluminum control surfaces for all (IIRC) our commercial airplanes. and all sorts of interior components and structures for all of our commercial planes. We have footage of all these manufacturing activities in our library should you wish to see it.

The ENTIRE 747 Boeing Converted Freighter, including the new, complete freight door fuselage section, the new main and lower floor grids and floor panels, new bulkheads, all the wiring for the plane (the original wiring is all torn out and thrown away), etc., etc, etc. is made in China and assembled by TAECO in Xiamen, right across the channel from the Nordhavn plant. I spent two months in Xiamen producing a couple of marketing videos for our 747 BCF. And I just learned that we are starting to produce 737 converted freighters in Shanghai.

This is nothing new. For example horizontal stabilizers for the 737 have been made in China for years now.

Last year alone there were several new component manufacturing processes started in China. One of our other producers was working with the footage that was shot of the ribbon-cutting and first-part-out-of-the-shop ceremonies for videos for Albaugh and now Conner. I don't recall what components these were or what planes the parts and assemblies were for. I believe some of them were for the 787 and the others were for the 737, but I could be mistaken on this as these weren't my projects.

We are putting more and more work in China every year. I know this if for no other reason than they're sending us over there more and more to shoot it.

 

[SomeSailor]

Ironically, I worked on the BCF program personally. The parts are kitted and shipped to them. They are largely doing stick assembly at TAECO (back shop work) and retrofit. Same for the 767 BCF done in Singapore. I led projects on both of those programs. Wiring is sent from right here at Everett. You'll never haul a passenger on any of the BCFs either. They are old 747-400's and combis that will haul freight for the rest of their years.

We're trying to make in roads over there, but you make it sound like BCA is nothing but Chinese parts, that's just not true. Some of stab assemblies on the 737 are assembled there and then sent here for production, but that's about it.

Comparing them to a Chinese knock-off dinghy is absurd. Your statement "ALL of them have major components and assemblies made in China" isn't correct. Walk down the line with me in Everett and I'd be glad to show you some American quality.

 

[bfloyd4445]

Ironically, I worked on the BCF program personally. The parts are kitted and shipped to them. They are largely doing stick assembly at TAECO (back shop work) and retrofit. Same for the 767 BCF done in Singapore. I led projects on both of those programs. Wiring is sent from right here at Everett. You'll never haul a passenger on any of the BCFs either. They are old 747-400's and combis that will haul freight for the rest of their years.

We're trying to make in roads over there, but you make it sound like BCA is nothing but Chinese parts, that's just not true. Some of stab assemblies on the 737 are assembled there and then sent here for production, but that's about it.

Comparing them to a Chinese knock-off dinghy is absurd. Your statement "ALL of them have major components and assemblies made in China" isn't correct. Walk down the line with me in Everett and I'd be glad to show you some American quality.

thank you sir

 

[Marin]

Ironically, I worked on the BCF program personally. The parts are kitted and shipped to them..

The program has obviously changed a lot since you were on it. Most of the big components for the BCF are now made in China. All the floors, for example, are made there. Freight door frame, bulkheads, wiring, etc., most of it made there now. Still lots of kits from the US, yes, but fewer and fewer as that work is being shifted to China (and other countries). We've shot this stuff coming into the TAECO receiving warehouse. More and more shipping labels no longer say "USA" on them.

More and more 737 work is going to China, too (just like more and more A320 work is going to China).

A big part of our job the last few years has been helping pave the way for these and many other projects that are headed that way and then reporting on them after they are up and running. The Chinese (and the Koreans and the Japanese) are cleaning our clock in terms of cost, quality, and delivery time. It's why we are there along with Airbus.

For example I did not realize until a few weeks ago that the entire fuselage for the AH-64 Apache helicopter is made in Korea. Some for the whole forward fuselage, cockpit, and wings for the F-15.

You can believe the work migration out of the US is no big deal if you like. But we go to these places with our cameras, and because of why they send us there, we know what's coming.

Obviously I cannot spell out specifics. But I will give you a tip. Don't invest in real estate in Everett or Renton.

 

[JD]

Obviously I cannot spell out specifics. But I will give you a tip. Don't invest in real estate in Everett or Renton.

Charleston SC will be a better investment 10 years from now.

 

[Marin]

Charleston SC will be a better investment 10 years from now.

Absolutely. Fantastic new plant with an outstanding workforce. That's the future of this company down there, in more ways than one.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 4445. (From Inflatable Boats thread)... "auto exhibition in..??? Peking maybe?" Beijing hasn't been Peking since Oct. 1st 1949. You go back a long way!

 

[SomeSailor]

The program has obviously changed a lot since you were on it.

No it hasn't. You're incorrect is all. (I've only been gone two years and still work with Tech Services. (the Chief Engineers are good personal friends of mine). Biggest difference I think is in the perspective from being a cameraman and a project engineer is all. The TAECO facility is a real moneymaker (as is SASCO), but not from cheap Chinese parts, it's more cheap labor and manufacturing facilities (relaxed industrial controls as well). We are doing the same thing in Charleston... cheap labor, no unions, government concessions. Not much different than overseas.

Obviously I cannot spell out specifics. But I will give you a tip. Don't invest in real estate in Everett or Renton.

And your reference to Boeing's expansion in South Carolina is just as silly. Production rates for the 787 there will always pale in comparison to those in Everett and Renton. There are thousands of aircraft in the skyline for the Washington factories. I'm glad to see us expanding in South Carolina, but it's at no expense to the Washington future of commercial aircraft production or any quality. These are still US designed, US built and US Certified airplanes.

Enough Boeing though... this was about boats at some point.

 

[Marin]

I didn't say the Chinese parts are cheap, I said they are Chinese. I've got hours of video in my desk drawer showing these parts being manufactured IN CHINA. Now maybe you think they were holograms of parts behind made in the USA but I can assure you they are not. I've got interviews with the on-site Boeing engineers spelling out which factories in China are making the floor grids and door frames and whatnot. I've got footage of Boeing CATIA engineeres at Harbour Pointe creating the drawings for the BCF components for the Chinese manufacturers to make.

Sorry but reality has moved past you in this case, I'm afraid.

As to Charleston, what is there now is just the tip of the iceberg. Ask yourself why that assembly building is way, way bigger and taller than it needs to be for the 787 line that's in there now. We've seen the drawings that show why. And if you knew what lies under the employee parking lot, something we just learned about earlier this year when we were down there, which is an area much larger than even the current assembly building, you would understand immediately what is coming down the pike.

As I said, don't buy real estate in Everett thinking it's a long term investment.

PS-- As to the difference between a cameraman and an engineer, you'll have ask our cameramen about that. I'm a producer.

 

[JD]

Greetings,
Mr. 4445. (From Inflatable Boats thread)... "auto exhibition in..??? Peking maybe?" Beijing hasn't been Peking since Oct. 1st 1949. You go back a long way!

It has officially changed for sure. This last time I was there they are now referring to Peking Duck as Beijing Duck. So you know it has changed names for sure.

Hope they don't decide to change the name of Genoa. I won't be able to get the correct salami.

 

[SomeSailor]

I've got footage of Boeing CATIA engineeres at Harbour Pointe creating the drawings for the BCF components for the Chinese manufacturers to make.

And I was a Project Technical Lead (PTL) there. I worked at Harbor Point, and then we moved down to Bellevue. I worked in the Airplane Level Integration team (ALIT) for the 747 Chief Engineer and 767 Chief Engineer. I can assure you ALL of those parts are designed and sourced here in the US and shipped to both SASCO and TAECO (from Kent, WA btw). All of the assembly drawings are simply instructions on how to assemble the kits of parts.

Sorry but reality has moved past you in this case, I'm afraid.

No... not at all. You took pictures of folks working in Catia and and PDM. Other than the back shop work (stick builds), these kits are built and shipped to the MRO's for incorporation. They do terminate wire bundles, install liners, floor grids, etc. But the parts you speak of are built all around the world. These are not manufacturing facilities, they are rework facilities. They assemble / build by service bulletin. They offer cheap labor, relaxed industrial standards and agreeable government environments for this sort of work.

Ask yourself why that assembly building is way, way bigger and taller than it needs to be for the 787 line that's in there now.

Most all aircraft factories are taller and larger than they have to be.

Not sure what you're talking around, but you make it sound like some secret bunker of doom. We should talk more about boats and less about work.

PS-- As to the difference between a cameraman and an engineer, you'll have ask our cameramen about that. I'm a producer.

... and not an Engineer...

 

[Marin]

I can assure you ALL of those parts are designed and sourced here in the US and shipped to both SASCO and TAECO (from Kent, WA btw). .

Sorry dude, you're wrong and we have the video to prove it.

And no, it's not bunkers or anything dramatic like that. Lets just say they are set up to expand the assembly facilities down there several times over on relatively short notice.

and not an engineer

No, we're creative folks so we think outside the box down here.

 

[SomeSailor]

No, we're creative folks so we think outside the box down here.

Yeah... but our boxes pay the bills.

... Back to boating

 

[Marin]

Yeah... but our boxes pay the bills.

Not lately. Can you say "787" and "7478i?"

 

[SomeSailor]

Keep that in mind while you're decided how to spend your EIP in a few months.

We certainly didn't earn those selling movie tickets.

 

[Marin]

The planes that are paying for our EIP are the old ones---- 737, 777.

That's probably one reason the 787 program has been bringing back retirees who know how to create a profitable airplane program.

 

[bluebyu]

Why don't you two just call each other. This chatter in a public forumn is just down right child like.

 

[Marin]

Yes, mommy.

 

[SomeSailor]

Yep. Back to arguing about boats.

No hard feelings Marin. I'll bet we've crossed paths somewhere. If you filmed at Harbor Point, I was there at the time. I'll buy ya a coffee if we run into each other somewhere. Gimme a shout next time you're in Everett.

 

[Marin]

Sounds good, but we don't do much in Everett anymore. Mostly Renton, Longacres, BFI, Charleston, and overseas.

 

[BruceK]

Marin, Can you post a photo of Air NZs new 777-300, in Lord of the Rings "Hobbit" paint job?

 

[bfloyd4445]

Greetings,
Mr. 4445. (From Inflatable Boats thread)... "auto exhibition in..??? Peking maybe?" Beijing hasn't been Peking since Oct. 1st 1949. You go back a long way!

sorry i dont know the names of current cities over there but it was in about 2000 when they unveiled their new van for the chinese market. Must have been Bejing. Peking sticking in my mind because of a book i have been reading that was printed in 1936 on Japanese expansionisum in China

 

[Marin]

Marin, Can you post a photo of Air NZs new 777-300, in Lord of the Rings "Hobbit" paint job?

According to the web we had no role in the special paint job. In fact it's not paint but decals applied over a standard ANZ livery on an existing 777. It appears the application was done in NZ. There are a lot of photos of the plane on the web.

 

[SomeSailor]

... they mix this up to conclude that that beautiful things are much more likely to be good design than ugly things.

I judge engineering design on the simplicity of the solution with regards to the complexity of the problem.

As mentioned earlier, the 787 wing design is an amazingly simple and elegant design. Hugely efficient and very striking to eye.

 

[alormaria]

I judge engineering design on the simplicity of the solution with regards to the complexity of the problem.

As mentioned earlier, the 787 wing design is an amazingly simple and elegant design. Hugely efficient and very striking to eye.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pCCRTRC5E...s/pPFuOFJNErw/s1600/boeing_787_dreamliner.jpg

I always admired the 757. It looks like a woman I was close to for a while.
Long, thin, with a beautiful face and two very large "engines" .
I still get aroused driving past Newark airport.

 

[SomeSailor]

I still get aroused driving past Newark airport.

Serious over-share / party foul.

 

[Marin]

I always admired the 757.

The 757 is the only jetliner Boeing made with an asymmetrical nose, like a DC-8/9. While this gave the plane a more aesthetic look in a lot of people's eyes (including mine) it was not done for aesthetics. It was done so the 757 and 767 could have identical flight decks so they could have a common type rating. The only way to fit the 767's flight deck into the 757 was to install it lower. So that's why there is a step down into a 757's flight deck and it's why the nose is "drooped." While it was in production if you asked our flight department pilots what their favorite plane to fly was, almost all of them said the 757 because it was so overpowered and had faster control response than any of our other planes.

Eric-- The 787 photo SomeSailor posted was from a photo/video air-to-air session we did with the prototype 787 a couple of years ago. The photos were shot by Ed Turner, Boeing's top still photographer. Here's another angle on the wing. As SomeSailor says, it is a very elegant design, although the reason for it is aerodynamics. The wing on the new 747-8, which is based on this design, is even prettier in some ways.

BTW, the scallops or chevrons on the trailing edge of the cowl are a noise-reduction system patented by Boeing and they bend in flight to alter the mix of the air blasting back from the fan and the slipstream air flowing over the outside of the cowl. Like thunder, the shear between these two moving masses of air is what makes a lot of the jet noise we hear. The chevrons vary their "bend" on their own-- there are no actuators. We did a bunch of videos about this when our engineers were coming up with the idea and then making it work. Very clever and simple system.

Engineers may not be very creative aesthetically, but they sure are smart.