CO detector question...

[ancora]

Had my boat inspected by a member of the Power Squadron. He recommended that I get my CO detector calibrated(?). In the Feb/March issue of Boat U.S. magazine there is an article on CO detectors: "The chances of an exhaust leak in a boat with diesel engines causing serious harm are low enough that having a CO detector is not part of the ABYC standards for such boats." No propane on board, ergo, I do not need a CO detector?

 

[FlyWright]

I've never heard of calibrating a CO detector. I thought they just get replaced after their drop-dead date printed on the back panel.

 

[BruceK]

The mechanic servicing my previous diesel boat spotted an exhaust leak at the turbo, only because a shaft of sunlight caught it rising. He is an experienced ex Navy/subs man, and was immediately concerned, warning that children are especially susceptible to C02. Based on his advice, take care.

 

[psneeld]

Had my boat inspected by a member of the Power Squadron. He recommended that I get my CO detector calibrated(?). In the Feb/March issue of Boat U.S. magazine there is an article on CO detectors: "The chances of an exhaust leak in a boat with diesel engines causing serious harm are low enough that having a CO detector is not part of the ABYC standards for such boats." No propane on board, ergo, I do not need a CO detector?

May want to ask him how you go about calibrating a CO detector....I am curious....

 

[Delta_JimS]

I recently installed a Kiddie CO detector as I think I had previously been sickened by low-level CO.(I do have propane) It's only a $25 unit, but the next level up was over $100.

It has not registered on my boat usage, but this weekend it showed a peak reading when I got to the boat of 17ppm. Both of my neighbors are twin gassers and I suspect that is where the CO came from as they had been running their engines in their slips, including gensets.

Don't know how accurate this low-cost monitor is, but it does give me some peace of mind that it has an LCD that gives some kind of relative CO reading. I mounted it amidships above the stairway to the forward V-berth. Thought I had a picture, but could not find it. Actually, rather looks like it belongs there with the other pilot station instruments and is easy to see and monitor. Yes, I would recommend this product to a friend....

 

[ksanders]

We have diesel and no propane.

We have CO and smoke detectors. These were purchases at Home Depot, just like the ones at my dirt house.

If you do a search you will find it very difficult to locate a confirmed case of a CO poisoning death from diesel.

 

[Sisuitl]

May want to ask him how you go about calibrating a CO detector....I am curious....

I'm really curious too. On lab type equipment you use a canister of reference gas with a known concentration of CO, then adjust the readout until it matches the reference. I have never seen a boat CO detector with that capability. Usually they get torn out and replaced when the sensor reaches its expected life expectancy. I imagine most people would have a hard time even buying a reference cylinder.

Diesels can put out surprisingly little CO. I once tried to demo a detector by holding it in an exhaust stream. Didn't work, further testing showed the detector working properly.

 

[Jay N]

Only time I've had a CO alarm, was when downwind of a gas generator on another boat.

 

[CaptTom]

Not to knock the Power Squadron, but even the best organizations can have misinformed but self-confident members. Or even idiots.

But the reason I'm posting is that you may not want to buy a "dirt" CO alarm for a boat. I've read that they are set to alarm immediately at a very low concentration. Marine units are supposed to use some sort of averaging over time to reduce false alarms.

I can confirm that the one I bought at a big-box store gave frequent false alarms, even with no engines running anywhere near the boat. It may be because I was working aboard in the winter. Perhaps they're not made to work in the cold, or maybe condensation on internal parts caused the problem.

 

[jleonard]

I never heard of calibrating one either...However 2 years ago I was required by BOATUS insurance to get a "free" survey and one result was I was required to install one to keep my insurance.
So I bought one at Home Depot and installed it.
Never got a false alarm in 2 seasons.

They also have a lifespan. I had to replace one in my house in October because it was 7 years old. It wouldn't stop chirping even with new batteries. Then I read the fine print. It was done. Some are 5 years.

 

[C lectric]

I installed an inexpensive CO detector in the V-berth about 4 yrs ago with the intention of replacement every 5 yrs. which is ahead of the Kidde schedule 7 and now 10 yrs] simply to be on the safe side. It usually just blinks at us.

We have a diesel boat and a diesel stove for heat but I thought just in case.

Last year it screamed. I had the boat closed up , it was COLD, and had used the little alcohol Origo stove for , i guess, too long and it reacted. So they do work and it alerted me to a developing problem. We opened the door, hatch and windows to clear the cabin and it settled down.

Just because the boat is not gasoline does not mean a problem cannot occur.

 

[hmason]

Dirt CO detectors are not for marine use. If you want one for the boat, buy a proper one.

 

[Forkliftt]

I recently installed a Kiddie CO detector as I think I had previously been sickened by low-level CO.(I do have propane) It's only a $25 unit, but the next level up was over $100.

It has not registered on my boat usage, but this weekend it showed a peak reading when I got to the boat of 17ppm. Both of my neighbors are twin gassers and I suspect that is where the CO came from as they had been running their engines in their slips, including gensets.

Don't know how accurate this low-cost monitor is, but it does give me some peace of mind that it has an LCD that gives some kind of relative CO reading. I mounted it amidships above the stairway to the forward V-berth. Thought I had a picture, but could not find it. Actually, rather looks like it belongs there with the other pilot station instruments and is easy to see and monitor. Yes, I would recommend this product to a friend....

I've never thought of that possibility- but it's just another reason to have one.


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

 

[psneeld]

Dirt CO detectors are not for marine use. If you want one for the boat, buy a proper one.

Is there a link or place that supportive info is available?

Anyone have ABYC info that rules out general alarms and has specific requirements of "marine" ones?

....not sure I have ever read an official report that said they were unacceptable...especially on boats not even required to have them.

From personal experience...they work just fine and seem to work just as well as the expensive marine wired in ones.

 

[jleonard]

From what I saw the way it calculates the various ppm levels is a little different. I think it averages over a greater time which means a HD model may alarm more often.
The European spec is also different.
I know when the surveyor I had told me I had to get one, he recommended a typical HD type. Said that would meet the insurance requirement.
Not that he was the sharpest surveyor in the box, but it is what he said.

 

[psneeld]

From what I saw the way it calculates the various ppm levels is a little different. I think it averages over a greater time which means a HD model may alarm more often.
The European spec is also different.
I know when the surveyor I had told me I had to get one, he recommended a typical HD type. Said that would meet the insurance requirement.
Not that he was the sharpest surveyor in the box, but it is what he said.

that is all my understanding too.

for a gas boat that my get too many false alarms...a marine one may be better than a dirt one without a battery because of the false alarms....

but till it was an issue...I haven't seen it as an issue to use a specific kind/brand/power source.

I am curious though if a requirement has popped up...seems every day someone is changing my life ....makes me feel less safe than when I was a crazy 20 something....

 

[sbu22]

hmason - why is a "dirt CO monitor" inappropriate for boats? CO is CO. A "proper" monitor sounds like code for "pay 6 X the going price" for the magic UL label. The UL 1524 standard seems to be all about hard wired installation requirements - not sensor performance.

Reminds me of when I flew (and wrenched) light planes in the deep boonies. Amazing how many parts were sitting on the shelf at the local auto parts store that were "identical" to the unavailable in less than a week TSO'd piece. And, at 20% the cost of the TSO'd part.

Obviously, discretion (and the base knowledge to apply that discretion) is required.

The highly touted concept that diesels present no CO risk is BS, as well. Diesels present a substantially lower risk of CO generation when compared to gas engines. However, that performance has much to do with state of tune and equipment. I know, from industrial experience, that it is not unusual to see 1,000 - 2,000 ppm CO in diesel exhaust. Without effective ventilation, that concentration can put people into nausea, dizzines, headache symptoms and even fatalities within 30-60 minutes.

I have six distributed about the boat, all Kidde "dirt" models, I think $20 a pop, they last 5 years (my schedule to account for effects of humid environment on sensor - think they're supposed to be good for 7-8). Periodically "calibrate" them by walking out to the parking lot and seeing if they squawk downwind of my truck's exhaust. Amortized cost - $2/month.

 

[sbu22]

And, zero problems with spurious alarms - each time they've activated, there's been a reason. 2 instances in close to 4 years that I can recall.

 

[ksanders]

hmason - why is a "dirt CO monitor" inappropriate for boats? CO is CO. A "proper" monitor sounds like code for "pay 6 X the going price" for the magic UL label. The UL 1524 standard seems to be all about hard wired installation requirements - not sensor performance.

Reminds me of when I flew (and wrenched) light planes in the deep boonies. Amazing how many parts were sitting on the shelf at the local auto parts store that were "identical" to the unavailable in less than a week TSO'd piece. And, at 20% the cost of the TSO'd part.

Obviously, discretion (and the base knowledge to apply that discretion) is required.

The highly touted concept that diesels present no CO risk is BS, as well. Diesels present a substantially lower risk of CO generation when compared to gas engines. However, that performance has much to do with state of tune and equipment. I know, from industrial experience, that it is not unusual to see 1,000 - 2,000 ppm CO in diesel exhaust. Without effective ventilation, that concentration can put people into nausea, dizzines, headache symptoms and even fatalities within 30-60 minutes.

I have six distributed about the boat, all Kidde "dirt" models, I think $20 a pop, they last 5 years (my schedule to account for effects of humid environment on sensor - think they're supposed to be good for 7-8). Periodically "calibrate" them by walking out to the parking lot and seeing if they squawk downwind of my truck's exhaust. Amortized cost - $2/month.

I liked your post, but in my research I have found it very difficult to find any reported deaths from CO with diesel as the source. I'm not saying impossible only because I could be proven wrong.

If diesel is dangerous, just how many people died in the last decade from CO poisoning sourced from diesel fuel?

 

[jleonard]

I liked your post, but in my research I have found it very difficult to find any reported deaths from CO with diesel as the source. I'm not saying impossible only because I could be proven wrong.

If diesel is dangerous, just how many people died in the last decade from CO poisoning sourced from diesel fuel?

I don't know that but I did find some articles of people who died from CO due to a faulty oil furnace. The ones I read were all due to a faulty air heat exchanger that was blowing fumes into the house.
Most of the deaths were from either natural gas or propane furnaces.
So I guess from that I would say that it's a possibility.
Don't forget that one of the effects of CO poisoning is MENTAL CONFUSION.
We may all be sucking in too many fumes!!

 

[Xsbank]

I had a wired CO detector that didn't work, (can't remember the company, big company, sorry, I'm not on the boat) just squealed when I connected it. I wrote to the customer service people for help replacing it and got no answer. Re-wrote, still no answer. So I did the expected thing, ripped it out, pulled all the wires and bought one with a battery from Home Depot and it works just fine. Marine - rubbish.

 

[sbu22]

Ksanders – You’re missing the point.
1. Diesel engine exhaust contains consistent and measurable concentrations of CO. Seems to run in the 1,000-2,000 ppm range. These units were, of course, ugly construction and oil field equipment. They do not emit the same pink, rose scented exhaust that our boats do, but still….

2. The “motor powered cabin vessel” (or something to that effect that the USCG uses as a descriptor to characterize the boats on this forum) have, in my experience and by any objective standard, generally poor interior ventilation (air exchanges per unit time).

3. CO exposure is responsible for about 15,000 ER visits and 500 deaths per year in the US. Been pretty consistent throughout 1999-2010. These numbers exclude structural fires, suicides, etc., etc. See the CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report if you want to drill down the data. I don’t believe you’ll find a data level that distinguishes between gasoline, propane, and diesel.
4. CO is not an asphyxiant – it does not do damage by displacing O2 in the atmosphere. It is a true toxic agent, inhibiting the blood's ability to carry O2 to vital organs.

5. The insult (damage) produced by CO exposure is a function of CO concentration and the duration of exposure to that concentration. For example, an acute exposure to CO at the 12-13,000 ppm level will fatal in 1-3 minutes; an exposure to just 400 ppm for 4 hours is expected to be fatal.

6. The UL CO detector set point standard reflects this “dose” relationship.
a. > 400 ppm CO, device must alarm between 4 and 15 minutes
b. > 150 ppm of CO, device must alarm between 10 and 50 minutes.
c. > 70 ppm of CO, device must alarm between 60 and 240 minutes.

I did not intend to tread on the closely held belief by many recreational diesel boaters that the diesel propulsion and fuel systems are as benign as a kiddy pool in the backyard.

I have DC plugs lanyarded to every through-hull. Because I expect an imminent through-hull failure? Getting ready for a transPac? Nope. Just a firm and long held belief that Murphy was an optimist and I’m going to do everything I can to insure the safety and longevity of the boat, my passengers, and myself.

When presented with a toxic source with no (zero) warning properties, semi-confined spaces below, and a relatively inexpensive means of managing that risk (even though it’s low probability), I’ll go with the “good” vice the “proper”. To each his own.

 

[ksanders]

Ksanders – You’re missing the point.
1. Diesel engine exhaust contains consistent and measurable concentrations of CO. Seems to run in the 1,000-2,000 ppm range. These units were, of course, ugly construction and oil field equipment. They do not emit the same pink, rose scented exhaust that our boats do, but still….

2. The “motor powered cabin vessel” (or something to that effect that the USCG uses as a descriptor to characterize the boats on this forum) have, in my experience and by any objective standard, generally poor interior ventilation (air exchanges per unit time).

3. CO exposure is responsible for about 15,000 ER visits and 500 deaths per year in the US. Been pretty consistent throughout 1999-2010. These numbers exclude structural fires, suicides, etc., etc. See the CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report if you want to drill down the data. I don’t believe you’ll find a data level that distinguishes between gasoline, propane, and diesel.
4. CO is not an asphyxiant – it does not do damage by displacing O2 in the atmosphere. It is a true toxic agent, inhibiting the blood's ability to carry O2 to vital organs.

5. The insult (damage) produced by CO exposure is a function of CO concentration and the duration of exposure to that concentration. For example, an acute exposure to CO at the 12-13,000 ppm level will fatal in 1-3 minutes; an exposure to just 400 ppm for 4 hours is expected to be fatal.

6. The UL CO detector set point standard reflects this “dose” relationship.
a. > 400 ppm CO, device must alarm between 4 and 15 minutes
b. > 150 ppm of CO, device must alarm between 10 and 50 minutes.
c. > 70 ppm of CO, device must alarm between 60 and 240 minutes.

I did not intend to tread on the closely held belief by many recreational diesel boaters that the diesel propulsion and fuel systems are as benign as a kiddy pool in the backyard.

I have DC plugs lanyarded to every through-hull. Because I expect an imminent through-hull failure? Getting ready for a transPac? Nope. Just a firm and long held belief that Murphy was an optimist and I’m going to do everything I can to insure the safety and longevity of the boat, my passengers, and myself.

When presented with a toxic source with no (zero) warning properties, semi-confined spaces below, and a relatively inexpensive means of managing that risk (even though it’s low probability), I’ll go with the “good” vice the “proper”. To each his own.

That is a wonderful detailed explanation of the risks. Thanks!

Now, I'll revert to my original challenge.

Show me some documented deaths from CO that was emitted from a diesel source.

With 500 CO deaths a year you'd think that you could find some that are documented as being from diesel. I know for a fact that I can find them documented as being from gasoline, and natural gas. They're easy to find.

What I am trying to do is to separate theory from reality. Yes, in theory CO can kill. Yes in reality people actually die from CO poisioning derived from gasoline and natural gas every year.

So where are all the diesel CO deaths? Thats the reality that I'm after. I'm not being snide here. I actually at one point searched for diesel related CO deaths and they just were not there.

 

[hmason]

I've been asked why a "marine" CO detector was the correct one to use versus a Home Despot variety. I'm not an engineer but can talk from personal experience.

I installed a battery powered CO detector, I believe it was a "First Alert" or "Kidde" brand can't recall for sure. It would often alarm when running our diesel generator. I could never find an exhaust leak or source for exhaust intrusion through a window etc. I read (again I can't recall where) that a marine CO detector operates on a different algorithm than a "home" model. I bought a marine CO detector, battery powered, mounted it in the same location as the "home" model and never had an alarm since. Same generator, same dock, same windows etc., etc. Perhaps the home model was defective, or the marine model was defective. Both worked fine in test mode.

This all occurred on our previous boat. I'm still in touch with the new owner and he has not had an alarm sound either. That's a study of one, not scientific, probably not reproducible, but convincing enough for me.

One other thought, we do a lot of anchoring and also have a mooring in one of our favorite locations. I have no clue as to the exhaust conditions of boats up wind of me, and some run those gas powered Honda things. A CO detector gives me some comfort in those conditions. BTW, anyone who runs a generator during sleeping hours is not a considerate neighbor and should have their generator license revoked. Just sayin'. Howard

 

[Art]

Anyone know of statistical reports regarding annual "marine related" deaths from CO poisoning?

Interesting link and quote:

http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/pages/safety/carbon2.aspx

What "parts per million" concentrations of carbon monoxide mean to your health:

100 ppm .01% Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm .02% Slight headache within two to three hours
400 ppm .04% Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm .08% Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 minutes. Insensible within two hours.
1,600 ppm .16% Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes. Death in less than two hours.
3,200 ppm .32% Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm .64% Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm 1.28% Death in less than three minutes.

 

[Northern Spy]

If you only acted upon statistics, you wouldn't have a CO detector in your boat.

But you would always wear a pfd and you would never drive or ride in a car either.

That said I do have a CO detector in my boat. Mainly for cooking a small space. It is not a marine rated version. It uses TWA sampling and has a digital display. It does not give me nuisance alarms. The only time it has gone off is in a no wind harbour when a nearby boat started up the old crusaders and let 'em warm up for a while...

 

[Art]

Although I’ve still not located answer to…”Annual number of marine deaths due to CO?” Here’s a bit more info:

Carbon Monoxide Questions and Answers

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Safety-Education/Safety-Education-Centers/Carbon-Monoxide-Information-Center/Carbon-Monoxide-Questions-and-Answers-/

How many people are unintentionally poisoned by CO?

On average, about 170 people in the United States die every year from CO produced by non-automotive consumer products.

These products include malfunctioning fuel-burning appliances such as furnaces, ranges, water heaters and room heaters; engine-powered equipment such as portable generators; fireplaces; and charcoal that is burned in homes and other enclosed areas.

In 2005 alone, CPSC staff is aware of at least 94 generator-related CO poisoning deaths. Forty-seven of these deaths were known to have occurred during power outages due to severe weather, including Hurricane Katrina.

Still others die from CO produced by non-consumer products, such as cars left running in attached garages.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that several thousand people go to hospital emergency rooms every year to be treated for CO poisoning.

 

[Northern Spy]

You know you don't have to die to be affected, Art; CO causes bain dramage.

 

[Art]

You know you don't have to die to be affected, Art; CO causes bain dramage.

Heck - Maybe that's the mental problem with our national govt! Progressive and pervasive brain damage because of too much CO out their rears in tightly closed rooms while smoking Cuban cigars ...making illegal deals... just a thought!

I'd still like to learn the stats on number of annual deaths from CO in the marine sector. Somewhere that number exists!

 

[psneeld]

That number may exist...but without enough other info to have any meaning.

All sorts of stats are tossed around ....try and make rational sense out of most of them without the original report wrapped around them.