Cost above estimate

[Seabag]

What would the collective thought be on how far over an estimate the actual yard bill should be? I understand "estimate" means just that and while one hopes for accuracy there are always some surprises. 10%? 20%? What is your "now just wait a minute" threshold?

 

[DDW]

Depends on the job and the boat obviously, but 100% over isn't at all unusual. It isn't like a car were there is a book that says, "R&R alternator 3.2 hours". Every boat is essentially a unique prototype with a unique set of problems. Often time estimates must be made with almost no idea what lurks beneath the surface of the problem. This is why most yards will only work on T&M. Sure you get jobs that are simple, accessible, visible, and maybe they've done three just like it in the last few years. But more often, not. Something like bottom paint or polishing, that is pretty predictable.

 

[BandB]

I think the auto repair laws are reasonable. Here is Florida's:

Understand your rights under the Florida Motor Vehicle Repair Act.
The Act applies to dealers of new and used cars, trucks and motorcycles; garages; service stations; self-employed persons; truck stops; and paint, body, brake, muffler, transmission, mobile repair and glass shops. Under the Act, if repair work on a vehicle will exceed $100, the shop must provide the consumer with the option of either requesting a written estimate, requiring notification if the repair exceed an amount specified by the consumer or waiving the need for a written estimate. Repair shops may never force you to waive your right to an estimate. The repair shop must contact you before exceeding the estimate by $10 or 10 percent, whichever is greater, but not to exceed $50. You may cancel repairs if they exceed the estimate and the repair shop must reassemble your vehicle, unless it is unsafe to drive. After you cancel the repairs, the repair shop may charge you for costs such as teardown and reassembly of your vehicle, provided you were notified of these possible costs in the estimate.​

Unfortunately, none of that applies to boats, but I think 10% is reasonable without further discussion and approval. It's really simple enough to call you when they realize there is something additional.

Also, the yard we uses does provide estimates and it is their policy as stated on their estimate that they will contact you if it's going to exceed the estimate by more than 10%.

 

[GFC]

Depends on the job and the boat obviously, but 100% over isn't at all unusual.

DDW, did they kiss you and pat you on the butt when they gave you your bill? I'd be in their face big time if I got a bill that was double what the estimate was.

I'd also be looking for a new place to fix my boat.

 

[Portage_Bay]

What would the collective thought be on how far over an estimate the actual yard bill should be? I understand "estimate" means just that and while one hopes for accuracy there are always some surprises. 10%? 20%? What is your "now just wait a minute" threshold?

That's a great question with no real answer. I see we're in the same general area, I'm on Whidbey Island. It seems PNW boat yards love to estimate low, then only work time and materials and up sell driving the final bill through the roof. I worked alongside the techs at a my haul out and got them to trust me, open up and say things I'm sure management didn't want customers to hear. Such as: "Never work to a bid", "Never give an estimate if you can avoid it, someone else will just estimate lower and you'll loose the job", "Upsell, upsell, upsell". And from previous experiences "Get the boat in now, even if we don't start for months, we don't want anyone else getting the work."

I asked for estimates on numerous work items, not one estimate was reasonably close. The worst being 4X the verbal estimate on labor. When the overrun was approaching 2X the estimate I stopped the work and challenged them. They denied their verbal estimate. I demanded a fresh estimate to finish the work. It went even higher than that. I worked alongside the techs, no one was goofing off or milking the job. Management didn't provide accurate estimates.

I know it doesn't have to be this way. During my career I managed many ship yard projects. They CAN be done to a bid, on time, close to on budget, as specified. With change orders to document and make decisions when "surprises" are found. Of course this means the bid will be high, because it will be honest and give the yard some wiggle room. Estimates on recreational boats seem to be made of dream stuff. The attractive dream of getting it at a good price then becomes the nightmare of reality.

OK, now that my rant is over. Next time I will, understanding I won't get a PNW recreational boat yard to bid the work:

1. Write a comprehensive and detailed spec for the work requested. If I'm not competent to do that hire someone who is.
2. Require written estimates for each work item including materials, labor and consumables.
3. Require a written start and end date. I'd love to apply penalties if they run late but i know no PNW rec yards will hear of that. It will give me a place to argue from when the schedule runs wild.
4. Require that any changes to any work item, any additional work be first authorized by me. That the estimate and schedule be amended by a change order.
5. Weekly updates on costs and progress.

So, back to your question. How far over? Based on experience with professional yards I expect 25% over. And that 25% should not be due to sloppy estimating but to dealing with surprises found.

100% or more over is not something I will ever go through again.

I think the key is tight specs, close management by you and full understanding the impact on cost and time to add things that seem like a good idea at the time.

 

[BandB]

Depends on the job and the boat obviously, but 100% over isn't at all unusual. It isn't like a car were there is a book that says, "R&R alternator 3.2 hours". Every boat is essentially a unique prototype with a unique set of problems. Often time estimates must be made with almost no idea what lurks beneath the surface of the problem. This is why most yards will only work on T&M. Sure you get jobs that are simple, accessible, visible, and maybe they've done three just like it in the last few years. But more often, not. Something like bottom paint or polishing, that is pretty predictable.

Actually it is very much like an auto. They have books of standards for various tasks and like an auto the times are more than generous.

 

[wwestman]

My personal rule has been to expect that the yard will take twice the time at twice the cost. Usually I am not far off.

 

[BandB]

What I find most enlightening is that we use a yard for all our work that most here would probably say is expensive and would go elsewhere. However, they provide written estimates. They do the work within those estimates unless something arises and then they get advance approval to exceed. They also meet their promised completion dates and the work is done right so we don't have to return. I think they end up being less expensive than the cheaper options and I know far less stressful. They are professional and disciplined. I often find a correlation between good business practices and quality service.

 

[nwboater]

That's a great question with no real answer. I see we're in the same general area, I'm on Whidbey Island. It seems PNW boat yards love to estimate low, then only work time and materials and up sell driving the final bill through the roof. I worked alongside the techs at a my haul out and got them to trust me, open up and say things I'm sure management didn't want customers to hear. Such as: "Never work to a bid", "Never give an estimate if you can avoid it, someone else will just estimate lower and you'll loose the job", "Upsell, upsell, upsell". And from previous experiences "Get the boat in now, even if we don't start for months, we don't want anyone else getting the work."

I asked for estimates on numerous work items, not one estimate was reasonably close. The worst being 4X the verbal estimate on labor. When the overrun was approaching 2X the estimate I stopped the work and challenged them. They denied their verbal estimate. I demanded a fresh estimate to finish the work. It went even higher than that. I worked alongside the techs, no one was goofing off or milking the job. Management didn't provide accurate estimates.

I know it doesn't have to be this way. During my career I managed many ship yard projects. They CAN be done to a bid, on time, close to on budget, as specified. With change orders to document and make decisions when "surprises" are found. Of course this means the bid will be high, because it will be honest and give the yard some wiggle room. Estimates on recreational boats seem to be made of dream stuff. The attractive dream of getting it at a good price then becomes the nightmare of reality.

OK, now that my rant is over. Next time I will, understanding I won't get a PNW recreational boat yard to bid the work:

1. Write a comprehensive and detailed spec for the work requested. If I'm not competent to do that hire someone who is.
2. Require written estimates for each work item including materials, labor and consumables.
3. Require a written start and end date. I'd love to apply penalties if they run late but i know no PNW rec yards will hear of that. It will give me a place to argue from when the schedule runs wild.
4. Require that any changes to any work item, any additional work be first authorized by me. That the estimate and schedule be amended by a change order.
5. Weekly updates on costs and progress.

So, back to your question. How far over? Based on experience with professional yards I expect 25% over. And that 25% should not be due to sloppy estimating but to dealing with surprises found.

100% or more over is not something I will ever go through again.

I think the key is tight specs, close management by you and full understanding the impact on cost and time to add things that seem like a good idea at the time.

Portage bay, I agree with you 100%. After being burned too many times, I now avoid boatyards and hire independent contractors. I try to rehire same folks and often work along side as helper and gofer for supplies. Easy to track hours and especially beneficial when decisions need to be made along the way. Btw, where on Whidbey do you live...I’m in Freeland but we keep our boat in Anacortes.

 

[Portage_Bay]

What I find most enlightening is that we use a yard for all our work that most here would probably say is expensive and would go elsewhere. However, they provide written estimates. They do the work within those estimates unless something arises and then they get advance approval to exceed. They also meet their promised completion dates and the work is done right so we don't have to return. I think they end up being less expensive than the cheaper options and I know far less stressful. They are professional and disciplined. I often find a correlation between good business practices and quality service.

I agree. That was the point of my long winded post. A job managed well by the yard and the customer will seem more expensive up front but in the end will very likely be cheaper.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Portage bay, I agree with you 100%. After being burned too many times, I now avoid boatyards and hire independent contractors. I try to rehire same folks and often work along side as helper and gofer for supplies. Easy to track hours and especially beneficial when decisions need to be made along the way. Btw, where on Whidbey do you live...I’m in Freeland but we keep our boat in Anacortes.

A note about working alongside. I find it important to keep my efforts out any facet of the project that may need to come under warranty. Gofer, clean up, removing interferences not related to the work item etc. I don't need to pay someone $110 / hr to run for little parts or pick up at the end of the day. Touch something that may be a warranty issue later on and you've opened the door for them to say "You did that work!" or "You made that decision!" and not stand by the work.


I'm south of Coupeville towards the PT ferry. I keep the boat at Oak Harbor.

 

[GFC]

I have used a yard in Portland a couple of times. Once when the boat was recommissioned when I bought it, a second time when my port transmission went TU. The first time they were right on budget but a week late on the delivery. The second time they were right on budget but just finishing up part of the job when I arrived at the scheduled date to pick it up. They didn't do one of the two jobs I asked them to do and tried to lie about why they couldn't get to it.


I won't go back.

 

[O C Diver]

I'm very fortunate that I have the yard I do. They don't give estimates, all jobs are Time and Materials. They are extremely fair. On almost all jobs, I'm there but often not working on the task they're doing. See no reason to get involved with sanding, painting, or waxing. I do alot of the jobs myself (OCD ), and have helped the yard with other boats when there is a skill I excell at that they don't. Been doing business with this family owned yard for 25+ years. Can't imagine putting up with the stuff you guys are subjected to. Only downside is having to travel 1,100 miles each way to take the boat to the yard from my house in Florida. Guess I'll just have to keep going North each summer.

Ted

 

[OldDan1943]

When it comes to my cabinet maker, I never ask for an estimate. And yes, he always charges me top dollar for his top of the line cabinet work. Yes, I would feel happier if he changed me less, you bet. LOL
The boat's next owner will be more than happy with the results, if not, dont buy this boat.

Per the yard work, maybe the next year when I take it up for bottom paint, I wont have a list of stuff to do other than the expected bottom prep and painting and hull valve maintenance.
It cannot hurt to have the grounding system checked too. The grounding system is one of those "doesn't make any noise and often over looked systems."

 

[Portage_Bay]

When it comes to my cabinet maker, I never ask for an estimate. And yes, he always charges me top dollar for his top of the line cabinet work. Yes, I would feel happier if he changed me less, you bet. LOL
The boat's next owner will be more than happy with the results, if not, dont buy this boat.

Choosing to pay top dollar for first rate work is one thing. Asking for an estimate and told it will be 50 hrs but comes in at 216 hrs when no problems were found, no surprises found, and the crew worked hard? No, that's simply being lied to by management just to get the job.

 

[OldDan1943]

Choosing to pay top dollar for first rate work is one thing. Asking for an estimate and told it will be 50 hrs but comes in at 216 hrs when no problems were found, no surprises found, and the crew worked hard? No, that's simply being lied to by management just to get the job.

Those bidding on Fed and State contracts often pull the same crap.
First, you ask for a detailed itemized including parts list.
You may consider taking them to small claims court.
Personally, I would never use them again and sure wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

 

[Seabag]

Well I have a written estimate that was created from the mechanical and hull surveys. I listed the items I wanted addressed and had 3 yards respond. One was twice the low estimate, the other was one and a half the low number. Only the lowest estimate addressed all the items in my original list. I spoke to all three and was surprised that the most knowledgeable seemed to be the low bidder. There have been a few surprises (2 bent shafts, 1 frozen coupling that had to be cut off meaning a new shaft, four new cutlass bearings, replacement and not rehab of the dripless shaft seals). So far the yard has cut the billable rate for some of the labor ($95 to $50) but I am awaiting an updated accounting. I understand and expect the shaft work will be on me though I will vent on the surveyor who perhaps could/should have caught the wows in both. He should have recognized the failed PSS seals as well. For those reasons alone I won't use him again.

My day of reckoning (accounting) is approaching but that also means I get my boat back. I'll post the results in the next 4-5 weeks when she's finally in the slip.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Peter

 

[DDW]

Actually it is very much like an auto. They have books of standards for various tasks and like an auto the times are more than generous.

We are probably talking about different things. Changing a water pump? Yeah, not that different than an auto or RV. Installing an inverter requiring extensive wiring changes? Not much like an auto. Lots of surprises might be found. Installing a genset? Nothing at all like an auto, no book time for that, estimate is almost a Wild A** Guess. Major repair like replacing fuel tanks which may require engine removal and significant demo and restoration, none of which can be seen until half way through the job? A whole different world than an auto.

Which is why I said it depends a great deal on the boat and the job. And one of the reasons I do almost all the work on my own boat.

I'd expect the shop to inform me when they are exceeding the hours of the estimate and get approval - but what are you, or they, going to do if a lot of nasty stuff is uncovered?

Also, having once worked in auto repair, the book time can be beat on a new car with some experience. On an old dirty rusty car when all the studs break off and have to be drilled, parts don't fit and have to be modified, you can go way over the book time.

 

[Giggitoni]

Daily communication is a must for us.

We had several tasks performed on our boat last October. The owner of the yard called us every evening (including Saturdays) to talk about what they accomplished and what was remaining. Time and material costs were also discussed. We knew exactly where we stood with time, quality, and costs every day. From now on, we’ll only take our boat there for refits and repairs.

Communication! Lack of communication is what leads to most problems in life.

 

[BandB]

We are probably talking about different things. Changing a water pump? Yeah, not that different than an auto or RV. Installing an inverter requiring extensive wiring changes? Not much like an auto. Lots of surprises might be found. Installing a genset? Nothing at all like an auto, no book time for that, estimate is almost a Wild A** Guess. Major repair like replacing fuel tanks which may require engine removal and significant demo and restoration, none of which can be seen until half way through the job? A whole different world than an auto.

Which is why I said it depends a great deal on the boat and the job. And one of the reasons I do almost all the work on my own boat.

I'd expect the shop to inform me when they are exceeding the hours of the estimate and get approval - but what are you, or they, going to do if a lot of nasty stuff is uncovered?

Also, having once worked in auto repair, the book time can be beat on a new car with some experience. On an old dirty rusty car when all the studs break off and have to be drilled, parts don't fit and have to be modified, you can go way over the book time.

Yes, there are absolutely shop rate guides with time for installing and wiring for an inverter and for installing gensets. Now, the estimator must be knowledgeable enough to choose to add for difficult applications and extra work required.

If the job is replacing fuel tanks, they absolutely should be able to give a valid estimate. They should know before doing the estimate if they will need to remove engines and what level of demo and restoration. If they're uncertain, they should estimate boat ways and tell you when in the process they will know. Not knowing until they get half way through the job is incompetence.

There are areas that require some work to identify what needs to be done. These include things that are hidden such as moisture in the hull or blisters and they include certain engine issues. In these cases you should initially get an estimate for doing the work necessary to figure it out and they should give you a broad range of what you could ultimately be in for.

You run across similar on homes. A simple task of finding and repairing a leak is a two step process. Even removing a wall is if you don't have drawings indicating whether it's load bearing or not. However, 90% of those things discovered as complications on house flipping shows (and I recognize it's to make good television drama) are discover-able in advance. The exception is a repossession you have no access to.

Yards need to do detailed estimates and they should notify you in advance of potential unknowns and complications and how they can impact things. If the customer is surprised or shocked, they didn't do an adequate job of communicating up front. It doesn't matter how complicated the task is, no customer should ever get a final bill that shocks them.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Well I have a written estimate that was created from the mechanical and hull surveys. I listed the items I wanted addressed and had 3 yards respond. One was twice the low estimate, the other was one and a half the low number. Only the lowest estimate addressed all the items in my original list. I spoke to all three and was surprised that the most knowledgeable seemed to be the low bidder. There have been a few surprises (2 bent shafts, 1 frozen coupling that had to be cut off meaning a new shaft, four new cutlass bearings, replacement and not rehab of the dripless shaft seals). So far the yard has cut the billable rate for some of the labor ($95 to $50) but I am awaiting an updated accounting. I understand and expect the shaft work will be on me though I will vent on the surveyor who perhaps could/should have caught the wows in both. He should have recognized the failed PSS seals as well. For those reasons alone I won't use him again.

My day of reckoning (accounting) is approaching but that also means I get my boat back. I'll post the results in the next 4-5 weeks when she's finally in the slip.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Peter

I'd like to strangle my surveyors as well. Supposedly the best. Missed failed shaft seals, corrosion and pitting on the shafts, bent strut, failing cutlass bearings, failing sea strainer, failed water tank, fuel lines ready to crumble at the slightest touch, called totally failed bonding system "over zinced".


But your original question was how much over estimate to expect? I'll stick with planning for 25% at final and to be notified at 10% as work progresses. All of the missed items I listed above have to be considered change orders, they were found as work progressed, not to be included in the 10% notification and 25% expected overage. Surprises like I listed above will drive the final far beyond original estimates and that is fully understood.

 

[Insequent]

I did an extensive, and expensive, refit in the USA. I had written estimates for all the work, probably about 9 in the end for different items. It was the way the yard worked.

However, with work on multiple estimates being concurrent it was not really feasible to track in detail against the estimates. But by the time we initiated the work in the second and subsequent estimates I had formed a favourable view on their integrity, and I was on-site for 90% of the time as well.

There will always be aspects that cause increases unless its a simple scope of work, particularly on an older boat where a history of DIY by PO's has occurred. Usually labour, but at time materials as well that requires additional labour as well. I would not want a yard to notice things needing R&M but not raise them or address them because it wasn't in the original estimate. And a bunch of little things that ought to be done can add up surprisingly quickly. Yes, you can insist that only work in the original scope and estimate be done, but in the long run that will probably lead to unexpected failures, inconvenience and even higher cost.

 

[OldDan1943]

My first yard 'visit' was the most expensive. Many things accomplished to bring the boat up to my standards.... the next visit, not so expensive, the most recent visit.... I had 3 coats of bottom paint on plus the usual.... even less. Next visit.... bottom prep and painting, I hope. We shall see.
By the way, this yard charges $1000 per prep and bottom paint coat.
I rely on my diver to keep me informed of the bottom paint and cleaning out the through hulls.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

Saw a sign in an independent Mercedes shop: Labor rates - $90/hr if you stay in waiting room, $125/hr if you want to watch, $150/hr if you try to help. Probably the same in most marine shops.

 

[O C Diver]

Saw a sign in an independent Mercedes shop: Labor rates - $90/hr if you stay in waiting room, $125/hr if you want to watch, $150/hr if you try to help. Probably the same in most marine shops.

In my scuba store I had a similar sign:

Labor Rate Per Hour: XX
If you watch: XX
If you help: XX
If you work on it first: XXX
If you purchased it somewhere else : XXX

Ted

 

[DDW]

If they're uncertain, they should estimate boat ways and tell you when in the process they will know. Not knowing until they get half way through the job is incompetence.

The problem is you don't know what you don't know. Neither do they. They might give you a high and low estimate, but in boats there are many, many jobs that are simply obscured until opened up. If there is 100% difference between the high and the low, I guess you could call that communication. I'd call it a guess.

If a shop always hits its estimate working on random boats, either it estimates high to cover contingencies, or cuts corners on the work when it turns out to be more complicated. This is no different than construction contractors.

 

[Insequent]

The problem is you don't know what you don't know. Neither do they. They might give you a high and low estimate, but in boats there are many, many jobs that are simply obscured until opened up. If there is 100% difference between the high and the low, I guess you could call that communication. I'd call it a guess.

If a shop always hits its estimate working on random boats, either it estimates high to cover contingencies, or cuts corners on the work when it turns out to be more complicated. This is no different than construction contractors.

For people with older boats, this covers it exactly.

 

[Seevee]

I don't want and estimate, I want a quote and I expect them to honor it to the penny. Most boat work is fairly predictable for someone who is experienced and for the most part, I don't want someone inexperienced working on my boat.


I in come cases, I will ask how much it costs to give me an exact quote with work that has unknowns and then proceed accordingly.



Then there will be a work order, with a penalty clause for late performance and a bonus clause for early performance... with a lot of details, including the entire scope of work and materials performed. Especially, if they has possession of my boat.


Now, for known mechanics, which is the bulk of my hired work, I may bend, even with only a verbal agreement.



Has worked well for boats and planes over the years, with minimal surprises.

 

[mvweebles]

I'm in the midst of a refit of my Willard 36. Well over 50 "projects". About 80% can be quoted with confidence without risk premium attached by yard, but some cannot. Major service on engine uncovered some very worn hydraulic hoses for example, was easier to replace RW pump and FW pump, etc. Yard has been good about honoring their quote even when minor surprises come up, presumably because the overages are balanced by the underages in a large refit. That said, I have detected the quotes for newest work seem to be relatively higher than what I perceive to be similar work done earlier in in the refit.

Bottom line is, in my opinion, you either trust the people (skills and integrity) you are working with or you don't. If for any reason you don't, move on. You may find a particular yard has excellent fiberglass work but their mechanical work is meh and thus expensive.

 

[FF]

Boatyard time is expensive , the hardest/trickiest job is estimating , so do not expect a complex written estimate to be for free!