critical oil sample result transmission

[Grahambda]

Just got back oil report from a 1990 Lehman transmission, shows red due to high levels of copper (446) and lead. (106) this was a pre purchase report on. DF 44 should I assume a rebuild is needed soon and if so any idea of cost I should budget?

 

[Arc]

Copper and lead sounds like a bronze bearing . Possibly Oilite.

 

[Taras]

How many hours on the Main and Transmission? An oil sample like that certainly raises a major red flag. If I were you, I'd look closely at the hours of the main engine as well and determine the health of the main and the tranny. A "mechanical survey" from a respected/certified professional makes a lot of sense. Once you get all the facts on the health of the main and the tranny, you can then fully understand if a rebuild is needed on the Main and/or the tranny. If so, you can ask for a significant reduction/adjustments in the price of the vessel to cover that expense. Everything is relative to the asking price. Is the boat already priced way below market to account for complete rebuilds?

 

[Grahambda]

Original transmissions??

FYI, the oil samples for the engines (3,400 hrs, 1990 build) and the gen set came back good. Waiting on the port engine transmission report. It appears that the transmission may have been changed out at some point, they are from Twin Disc Company out of WI, I thought the original transmissions would have been from BW (?). Unfortunately, the current owner does not have a record of when/if the prior owner changed out those transmissions, so no idea on hours. Transmission oil changes do not appear to have been done on a regular basis (unlike the engines), so thinking it could be a build-up from not changing the oil frequently. However when I get the other oil report back for the port transmission and that does not show any issues, then it would point to a potentially serious wear issue on the stbd. Do you agree?

 

[IRENE]

Would it be possible the new transmission never had its oil changed? The deposits could be from the run-in since new?

Potential way forward - change the oil, 6-8 hour boat ride (sea trial), and sample again? I would be asking the analysis folks this is feasible; would they expect a useful analysis with a day of run time. I have not done this myself - just the idea fairy here.

Good Luck

 

[O C Diver]

With out knowing the hours on the oil, it's hard to say. In general copper is from clutch plates an lead is from bearings.

On my transmission which is different than the one you're considering and probably with significantly less shifting, after 500 hours:

Copper is 45 PPM
Lead is 1 PPM

Universal Averages from Blackstone Labs on my model of transmission are:

Copper 74 PPM
Lead 32 PPM

IMO, which is worth what you paid for it, I would be worried if I thought it was less than 2,000 hours. Maybe less worried at 5,000 hours.

Ted

 

[Grahambda]

Report #'s

Thanks, Ted, the report came back with 446 Copper and 106 Lead. with the comment: "Copper is high, Lead is high, check for abnormal noise/performance. Check for slippage. resample at half the normal interval".

Other than stripping it down now (which would mean we lose 7-8 months by having to keep her on the hard in the winter up north), I suppose the only option is to replace the oil, check for adverse noise and gear changes under a sea trial with a mechanic and if nothing is obvious, fingers crossed it won't fail on us as we make our way south and eventually to Ft Lauderdale. There we would get her serviced/looked over by the transmission guys (approx 600 hours of run time to her there).

 

[O C Diver]

Thanks, Ted, the report came back with 446 Copper and 106 Lead. with the comment: "Copper is high, Lead is high, check for abnormal noise/performance. Check for slippage. resample at half the normal interval".

Other than stripping it down now (which would mean we lose 7-8 months by having to keep her on the hard in the winter up north), I suppose the only option is to replace the oil, check for adverse noise and gear changes under a sea trial with a mechanic and if nothing is obvious, fingers crossed it won't fail on us as we make our way south and eventually to Ft Lauderdale. There we would get her serviced/looked over by the transmission guys (approx 600 hours of run time to her there).

I wouldn't make a decision untily ou see the numbers from the other transmission.

Someone on the forum has a signature that sort of reads, "I only need one engine to cruise. That's why I have twins".

If the other transmission comes back with equally high numbers, I would have to think whether both have alot of hours on the oil or both may not make it to Florida. If you choose to go South without going into the transmission, change the oil and seatrial it with a mechanic. Then change the oil again before you leave. Then change it again after 100 hours and after 200 hours. Simply, oil has an insignificant cost, nobody ever ruined a transmission by changing oil to much, and it will take several oil changes to get all the residual stuff out of the transmission. With the exception of the first oil change, try to change engine and transmission oils after atleast a couple of hours of running so that all the stuff on the bottom has a chance to get stirred up. Finally some transmissions have screens and some have magnets on the drain plug. Find out what your transmissions have and make sure they get cleaned on the first oil change!

Ted

 

[jleonard]

Yes it is but important to know how the sample was taken.
When I took the sample from my BW tranny it came back with 3400+ ppm of iron. The expert (ADC) said the unit was toast because it was over 10 times the recommended level when it’s rebuild time.
I planned on rebuilding it anyway(already had it out of the boat and on my workbench). Took it apart and found there was a magnet epoxied to the sump. Not shown in the manual. I must have taken the sample off the magnet because everything steel/ iron inside was fine.
It did need clutches but they were the paper ones and were almost completely gone.
I don’t know how complicated your tranny is but the BW is an easy rebuild.

 

[slowgoesit]

We have a model MG509 Twindisk transmission in our boat. When we purchased it, the oil sample came back abnormally high for lead and copper, just like yours. We changed the oil, ran for about two hours and resampled. Still high, but much less.

I spoke to the Twindisk rep in Seattle, gave him the information, and his first questions were, "When was the oil last changed?", and "What is the material of the Transmission OIl Cooler?"
He stated that the MG509 (not sure about yours) contains no copper/lead bushings or bearings, and that if it were the friction plate was wearing, you would also have high levels of another metal, don't quote me on this, but I believe it was zinc.
Turns out the transmission oil was well, WELL overdue for changing.
Also, our transmission oil coolers are copper, soldiered together (lead).

His professional opinion was that the oil cooler was leaching copper and lead into the oil. Change oil again in a year, and resample, but he didn't feel it was an issue at all.

Now my personal opinion:
You did the fluid samples for a reason. Unless you got just a screaming deal on the boat, I would try and get the cost of a rebuild, and replacement transmission oil coolers deducted off the price, or at least split the difference with the seller. I believe you have more than enough grounds for that request.

 

[Brooksie]

Did you tell us the transmission make? Many have bronze friction plates. As mentioned above, how was the sample taken, if drained or sucked off the bottom of the housing, it could be years of plate material collected there.

 

[rgano]

fingers crossed it won't fail on us as we make our way south and eventually to Ft Lauderdale. There we would get her serviced/looked over by the transmission guys (approx 600 hours of run time to her there).

600 hours caught my eye. Are you traveling at about only 2 knots? I'm with Ted's recommendations on this one.

 

[koliver]

Yur test results included: "Copper is high, Lead is high, check for abnormal noise/performance. Check for slippage. resample at half the normal interval".

Find out what that tested considers the "normal interval".

 

[slowgoesit]

Did you tell us the transmission make? Many have bronze friction plates. As mentioned above, how was the sample taken, if drained or sucked off the bottom of the housing, it could be years of plate material collected there.

Twin Disk, see post # 4.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Can you share the report?

High copper is not unusual for hydraulic transmission, the clutches are sintered bronze bathed in oil. Copper can also leach from oil coolers, as others have noted. The change interval on many hydraulic transmissions is 1000 hrs. under normal use and 500 hrs. under heavy use. If no lube time was provided to the lab, they will err on the low side, which could skew results into the red, i.e. if the lube time is 700 and the lab inputs 100, the thresholds are much lower, and more likely to generate a red alert, which may not be warranted.

This may be legitimate, especially if the shift cable isn't adjusted properly, but I also see many analysis reports that include incorrect data, like lube time, and sampling technique errors.

More here

 

[CarlF]

This isn’t a big enough reason to lose a boat that you like and feel is well priced - and missing a winter with the boat.. Walking means another long search for a good boat - worth far more in time and travel than a transmission rebuild. And don’t hang around up north to fix it. Hauling, winterizing and storage also costs more than a transmission rebuild.

If the other sample comes back the same - assume it just needs an oil change (or three)

If the other is good, you may have a transmission in trouble but those transmissions can take a long time to fail. Or as others say it could just be the oil cooler. It could be fine for years. Rebuilds are inexpensive. It would be different if the engine oil report had come back bad.

This assumes that the transmission sounds and operates the same as the other one.

Obviously use this to try and get a discount but I wouldn’t walk away if you only get a little one.

The perfect is the enemy of the good

 

[greatpapabear]

Just got back oil report from a 1990 Lehman transmission, shows red due to high levels of copper (446) and lead. (106) this was a pre purchase report on. DF 44 should I assume a rebuild is needed soon and if so any idea of cost I should budget?

Hi - Contact Lehman and ask them for their opinion.

 

[slowgoesit]

Hi - Contact Lehman and ask them for their opinion.

IMHO, better to contact Twindisk, the manufacturer of the transmission, not Lehman, the marinizer of the engine the transmission is bolted to . . . . Also, Lehman, as such, no longer exists as it was purchased by a list of companies, the latest being Clatterpillar if I recall correctly.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Can you share the report.

 

[ronobrien]

We have a model MG509 Twindisk transmission in our boat. When we purchased it, the oil sample came back abnormally high for lead and copper, just like yours. We changed the oil, ran for about two hours and resampled. Still high, but much less.

I spoke to the Twindisk rep in Seattle, gave him the information, and his first questions were, "When was the oil last changed?", and "What is the material of the Transmission OIl Cooler?"
He stated that the MG509 (not sure about yours) contains no copper/lead bushings or bearings, and that if it were the friction plate was wearing, you would also have high levels of another metal, don't quote me on this, but I believe it was zinc.
Turns out the transmission oil was well, WELL overdue for changing.
Also, our transmission oil coolers are copper, soldiered together (lead).

His professional opinion was that the oil cooler was leaching copper and lead into the oil. Change oil again in a year, and resample, but he didn't feel it was an issue at all.

Now my personal opinion:
You did the fluid samples for a reason. Unless you got just a screaming deal on the boat, I would try and get the cost of a rebuild, and replacement transmission oil coolers deducted off the price, or at least split the difference with the seller. I believe you have more than enough grounds for that request.

Years ago I was director of maintenance for an oil tank farm. The company bought a corporate yacht (72' Hatteras) with (2) DD12V92 & Twin Disk trans. I was asked to investigate an erratic trans oil pressure reading,although everything seemed to operate normally. I started with the basics and pulled the internal filters. They were collapsed as they hadn't been changed in many, many hours. I service both units and there was no apparent change in their operation. The pressure readings were due to a defective sender unit. My point is that a lot of these units can take a fair amount of abuse and survive. I agree with others here that a fluid change is in order and then retest after some established interval. It may that there are just a lot of hours on the oil. Best of luck.