Do all Mariner 37/Helmsman 38 trawlers have left hand props?

[HeadedToTexas]

I remain at an uncomfortably steep point on the backing a single screw inboard learning curve. My slip has allowed me to get by without a lot of backing, but that is a temporary thing and backing is a necessary skill.

After what seems like far too long, I think I have discovered a big part of the mystery. I learned a lot from a delivery captain that helped me get out of Lake Michigan two years ago. The way he taught maneuvering made a lot of sense, but taking the theory in to practical application was never quite as clear.

By my reckoning, the left hand prop on my 2007 Mariner 37 rotates counterclockwise in reverse meaning that the stern will walk to starboard when backing. Do all Mariner 37s and Helmsman 38s have left hand props?

 

[O C Diver]

A few points to consider:

When you say backing, do you mean into a slip or up the fairway? These can be very different. Backing into a slip often refers to pulling the boat into a slip in a curving manner. Backing up a fairway more refers to traveling in a straight line.

Understand when Backing that a boat's stern pulls to port or starboard based on a left or right wheel. The pulling occurs when the engine is in reverse, much less in neutral. Coasting in neutral makes it easier to back straight. When going backwards, having the rudder hard over increases the sideways pull in the direction of the stern edge of the rudder.

Do you have a bow thruster?

Nothing takes the place of practice.

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

First, you have a right-hand prop. When viewed from astern, prop turns to the right (clockwise) when I'm forward gear.

Prop walk is both friend and foe. There are techniques to minimize it's effect when it's not needed. As Ted suggests, using neutral helps. You can also "set" the stern moving in one direction to anticipate/offset prop walk by using rudder wash: set the rudder hard-over (to port in your case even though that's counterintuitive), then give a 1-2 second blast of forward gear, then immediately resume reverse. It takes a lot of practice not because it's difficult, but just takes time to build muscle memory because the movements are a bit counterintuitive, especially since docking can be a big stressful (at least if is for me).

Threads like these seem to bring out people who state they can drive a single as easily as a twin. Truth is you can't. There are limitations.

I recently installed a bow thruster after 20 years of owning my Willard 36. I'd like to think I'm an above average close-quarter helmsman. But the slip we now own has a couple challenges. Rather than fight and stress, decided to install a thruster as an Easy Button. It was less expensive than I would have thought. Much of the expense is getting power to it which often means new batteries and cabling.

Good luck.

Peter

 

[O C Diver]

Threads like these seem to bring out people who state they can drive a single as easily as a twin. Truth is you can't. There are limitations.

Peter, speak for yourself.

It takes a properly set up boat with large rudder, 40 degree turn angle per side, and the ability to turn the rudder in a timely manner. Add to that the knowledge of how to accomplish what you want and extensive practice. Because someone isn't willing to practice, doesn't mean it can't be done. One only has to watch a seasoned Chesapeake Bay waterman back down a ditch with his single engine boat to realize it's very doable, and the skill is mastered through repetition.

Ted

 

[HeadedToTexas]

I am no prop expert, but I believe my prop (in the photo a few posts up) pushes water when it rotates counterclockwise. Am I seeing that wrong?

 

[Fish53]

You need to learn how to use your rudder, speed in reverse and when to put it ahead to kick the stern over. It ain't hard it just takes practice. You don't need to alter the machinery you just need to understand all the dynamics at play.

 

[mvweebles]

Peter, speak for yourself.

It takes a properly set up boat with large rudder, 40 degree turn angle per side, and the ability to turn the rudder in a timely manner. Add to that the knowledge of how to accomplish what you want and extensive practice. Because someone isn't willing to practice, doesn't mean it can't be done. One only has to watch a seasoned Chesapeake Bay waterman back down a ditch with his single engine boat to realize it's very doable, and the skill is mastered through repetition.

Ted

Lot of 'ifs' in there Ted.....

I didn't say it wasn't possible to handle a single, just that there are inherrent limits compared to a twin.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

I am no prop expert, but I believe my prop (in the photo a few posts up) pushes water when it rotates counterclockwise. Am I seeing that wrong?

I stand corrected - somehow on my phone I saw it differently. You are correct.

Apologies -

Peter

 

[Fish53]

Lot of 'ifs' in there Ted.....

I didn't say it wasn't possible to handle a single, just that there are inherrent limits compared to a twin.

Peter

Sorry to disagree, I have no trouble doing anything with a properly set up single that I can with a twin. It may take slightly more time and slightly more maneuvering but it's entirely possible. There are some "inherrent limits" but they're minor and easily compensated for.

 

[mvweebles]

Sorry to disagree, I have no trouble doing anything with a properly set up single that I can with a twin. It may take slightly more time and slightly more maneuvering but it's entirely possible. There are some "inherrent limits" but they're minor and easily compensated for.

Hmmm.....how good are you with twins?

Twins are ambidextrous. Singles are not. I prefer a single, but let's be honest here. They are not the same when it comes to close quarters. Especially backing down.

Peter.

 

[Fish53]

Hmmm.....how good are you with twins?

Twins are ambidextrous. Singles are not. I prefer a single, but let's be honest here. They are not the same when it comes to close quarters. Especially backing down.

Peter.

I'm fine with twins, triples, and quads and I prefer singles simply for the pleasure of doing the same with less, but I've been doing it for years so I've had the opportunity to gain significant experience not available to most.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

I stand corrected - somehow on my phone I saw it differently. You are correct.

Apologies -

Peter

No worries, Peter. I'm just trying to get it figured out. Perhaps my prop sits horizontal enough that prop walk is just not as pronounced as more angled designs?

I understand the impact of forward thrust on the rudder; it's the prop walk that I do not feel. In my part of the Great Lakes, wind has way more impact than prop walk on my boat and our wind is nearly always blowing. Perhaps prop walk is just masked?

 

[FWT]

My H38 is on order, so I don't speak from experience. I did have a conversation with Scott about this, earlier in the process, when I asked him about prop walk on this boat. His response was that the H38 has "some" walk, but not much. That's a big keel down there that resists lateral movement more than some other designs. (But would logically react to currents more.) In terms of wind and "sail area" up top, its a lower profile boat than some, more than others especially when you begin to add a dingy up top, bimini canvas, and maybe netting around the upper rails.

It also has a large rudder compared to some other boats, so that the technique of putting the helm hard over and goosing the throttle forward for a few seconds will push the stern quite effectively. So effectively that Helmsman didn't install stern thrusters for quite a while, believing they were an unnecessary expense and complication. However, folks read this and that, and come in with their own expectations and desires so eventually they just added stern thrusters as standard gear, because the market expected them.

The rudder was enlarged at some point, but I don't know when. Early Mariners / H38's with smaller rudders may act a bit differently on this than later models.

My boat will have stern thrusters. Frankly, I heard Scott on this topic and am not expecting to "need" them. My reason for going ahead with them were a bit different. I am trying to organize the boat around ease of single handed use. I don't expect to need them to get the boat into the hole, even though a nudge here and there might be a good cheater to have on occasion. But once in the hole I'll need to step away from the helm to handle lines. Its not just the thrusters, but also a remote for them on a lanyard that I'll have to help KEEP the boat where I want it as I move around, at least side to side.

My boating experience is more sail. I have never owned a boat that would back up straight for any distance, and each one had its own mind about how it would act. I will say that I learned from experience that backing up with the helm hard over and the rudder stopped acting like a rudder and more like a brake. The capacity to steer in reverse was far less than hard over, but each boat was a bit different in how much was too much. I just had to learn each, differently.

I am looking foward to learning how the H38 reacts, looking forward to getting mine. Until then, this is the most I can offer.

 

[O C Diver]

No worries, Peter. I'm just trying to get it figured out. Perhaps my prop sits horizontal enough that prop walk is just not as pronounced as more angled designs?

I understand the impact of forward thrust on the rudder; it's the prop walk that I do not feel. In my part of the Great Lakes, wind has way more impact than prop walk on my boat and our wind is nearly always blowing. Perhaps prop walk is just masked?

Are you familiar with the term "back and fill"? This refers to setting the rudder to push the stern over with some forward propulsion. Having the rudder set to push the boat back will increase the prop walk when operating in reverse. Bringing the rudder back to 0 angle or opposite the prop walk, can significantly reduce the walk.

Ted

 

[HeadedToTexas]

I understand back and fill, at least in concept. I have just always had a slip that requires no backing and therefore have never had to use it since training a couple years ago. The time will come, of course, so that's on the list of objectives for this season.

 

[mvweebles]

If you're backng into a slip with a single, well, it can be difficult. Without a thruster there is no control over the boat, and in reverse, there is very little rudder so not a lot of control over the stern. So don't feel bad.

In my opinion, trying to learn close-quarter maneuvering in wind/current is difficult. I know, you need to learn those conditions, but they are not the right place to learn feel. For example, back & fill has a technical description, but it works best once you 'feel' the boat as it develops rotational momentum.

There are two exercises that in my mind really help develop feel:

1. Open side-tie. This is a common docking situation such as a fuel dock or pump-out dock. Find an open dock on a quiet day to practice. Without wind or current. Pick a cleat where you want your bow to land. Aim for the clear at about 35-45 degree angle at slow speed (in/out of forward - less than walking speed). With your prop-walk, your boat pulls to starboard in reverse so you'll want to land to starboard. When you're within a boat-length, with gear in neutral, put the helm hard-over to port and put the gear into idle-reverse. Prop-walk will not immediately kick-in but will become most pronounced just as the boat slows to a stop. If you're coming-in a bit hot, raise the RPMs to slow the boat. If you're coming in too slow, go to neutral. Goal is to induce the stern to swing into the dock. Chances are, the first couple times you'll land several feet off the dock - you have to start your turn much later.

2. Making a U-Turn in a fairway. As you already know, you will want to make a turn to port so you can leverage prop-walk which will drag your stern to starboard. This excercise really develops a cadence and timing of forward/reverse to develop rotational momentum. Any breeze or current really hinders the learning process. Once you know the "art of the possible," its much easier to understand how to feather-in other conditions.

TIP - When I first purchased my prior boat - a Willard 30, it too had a pull-to-starboard as your boat does. The previous owner spent a day with me teaching me docking. The slip required a starboard turn - bow-in. It was also down-wind in San Francisco which complicates the challenge. He suggested going past the slip and making a U-Turn, then approaching the slip from the opposite direction so I could land with prop-walk helping me instead of hurting me. Of course, I could do this because there was plenty of fairway to make a U-Turn. Without that, would have been more difficult (an example of why I say singles are inherrently less maneuverable than twins).

Best to you -

Peter

 

[Maerin]

I understand back and fill, at least in concept. I have just always had a slip that requires no backing and therefore have never had to use it since training a couple years ago. The time will come, of course, so that's on the list of objectives for this season.

Keep in mind that the rudder has minimal effect in reverse. When you have any distance to back, set the rudder hard to stbd. Back slowly using intermittent gear engaging. When the stern starts to pull the bow off track, pause in neutral, then fwd & give it a quick hard shot of throttle, then out of gear. Be deliberate, you don't want to reverse direction, you just need to bump the stern over. With back & fill, neutral is your friend. Use moderate bursts of propulsion.
You want to take advantage of momentum, so if you use too light a touch, it'll be more difficult to control. If you keep it in gear, you'll have more trouble. There's a balance to find. Practice in easy areas to learn that balance. Don't pussyfoot!

 

[ProMaritime]

If HeadedtoTexas had taken the photo from the side it would have easier to identified, left or right.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Here’s a side view.

 

[OldDan1943]

I have a 34ft, single prop boat and a wireless Dockmate. It gives me control of bow and stern thrusters plus control of the transmission fwd or reverse at crawl speed. I could have added anchor up or down but, they talked me out of it. My anchor control station, foot pedals, is at the bow. Saved an additional, about, $2k too.
It still requires a bit of practice to become familiar with the Dockmaster.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

I have not looked in to wireless controls, but it sure seems like a great extension.