Dripless Shaft Dripping

[Mainship Pilot]

Took possession of this boat a few weeks back, shaft seal was leaking during sea trial, yard fixed it, but did not test it as it was a calculated risk on my behalf, since I would have had to pay to have it relaunched then pulled out again, $$$$$. Anyway, it still leaks, albeit a lot less, an occasional drip. I’ve turned the 5 Allen nuts a 1/4 turn each, didn’t want to push it. I’m gonna do another 1/4 turn on all 5 again tomorrow. Is there a point of no return on tightening these? Any other suggestions? 6LPA Yanmar, ZF Trans
Tried to upload a 14 second video, doesn’t work. This site seems very sensitive to pics and videos.

 

[Mainship Pilot]

 

[Comodave]

What brand dripless log is it? Or a photo of it would help.

 

[Mainship Pilot]

I'm going up there tommorrow, I'll take a pic, but are video's not allowed here? More to come......

 

[Mambo42]

Is it a PSS system by any chance ?
On youtube there are some videos how you can solve the leaking problem without taking the boat out. Perhaps that may help you with your problem ?
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=leaking+pss+shaft+seal+

 

[Patemey]

If they are PSS seals, they are not dripless - they are drip less.

 

[Mainship Pilot]

If they are PSS seals, they are not dripless - they are drip less.

Ha! That seems to be the case! I'll take pix while up at the boat tommorrow. I'll also take the allen wrench and do another 1/8" tightening turn on all 5 allens on the front side of the system. It's just an annoying drip, not anything substantial. If I don't go to the boat for a few day's, it's less than a gallon of water sitting there, which I pump out.

 

[Mainship Pilot]

I screen shotted this from the video I wasn’t allowed to load, I still think that’s weird!

 

[Caballero II]

Ha! That seems to be the case! I'll take pix while up at the boat tommorrow. I'll also take the allen wrench and do another 1/8" tightening turn on all 5 allens on the front side of the system. It's just an annoying drip, not anything substantial. If I don't go to the boat for a few day's, it's less than a gallon of water sitting there, which I pump out.

Yeah, but maybe a problem. I have Pro version of PSS seals, and they do not leak a discernable drop, and haven't for the 5-6 years I've had them. They replaced the original PSS seals which had a 5 year replacement interval. The Pro Seals are supposed to go 10 years. I think you're leaking too much. I've seen some threads here that detail a technique to mate the surfaces so they don't leak. I believe you should maybe explore that. I mean I don't get a single drop. Probably, if the compression is right, you should be good. So you might need some further guidance/exploration.

 

[Bmarler]

That’s a tides shaft seal. There’s a lip seal inside it that needs replacing, or the shaft has some scoring on it causing the leak.

 

[Mainship Pilot]

That’s a tides shaft seal. There’s a lip seal inside it that needs replacing, or the shaft has some scoring on it causing the leak.

It was just serviced by the yard before I shipped it down here on the former owners dime, but it was not dropped back in to test it. What I’m wondering is what adjustments can I make to remediate the slow drip?

 

[Bmarler]

It was just serviced by the yard before I shipped it down here on the former owners dime, but it was not dropped back in to test it. What I’m wondering is what adjustments can I make to remediate the slow drip?

I’ve never had a tides seal before so I’m not intimately familiar with it. But typically, lip seals don’t have adjustments. They work or they leak. When tides are installed, they put a spare seal on the shaft so you can remove the bad seal and slide the new one into place without hauling the boat. Once the spare is used, you need to haul to fix.
This is assuming of course, that the leak is between the seal and the shaft. If the housing is leaking, maybe there’s something you can do, but like I said, I’m just not that familiar with them.
I’m surprised no by with direct experience hasn’t piped up yet. Perhaps they will.

 

[Bmarler]

One more thought. One way a lip seal can leak is if there’s excessive movement of the shaft when operating. I’d check for that and realign if needed.

 

[luna]

There is likely no adjustments available to stop the slow leak at rest. Underway while subjected to the pressurized water, the leak will probably be worse.

To fix this leak you will need to remove the shaft to gearbox coupler, the seal carrier assembly and the shaft log hose so you can ensure that there are no imperfections from the shaft end to the seal riding surface, including polishing the shaft and the keyway edges.
This likely means a haul out and shaft removal as the finishing work required on the shaft is best done on a lathe.

I could never accept the fact that these Tides shaft seals expect the lone seal to run and survive while using unfiltered raw water as a lubricant/coolant. Water is a poor lubricant for a lip seal that is designed to run in oil.

Norscot makes a similar shaft seal using 3 seals, 2 of which create an oil bath to provide the lubricant/coolant. No pressurized water is required, just a reservoir of oil which if mounted just above the waterline provides a slightly pressurized system, even at rest.

The Norscots I have are 27 years old, I've replaced the seals twice, never had a water leak and only one of them drips oil at about a drop a week. Slightly more when underway.

Details are here: https://www.ibsenco.com/norscot_shaft_seal/

Raw water in the bilge is always a nasty situation. Good luck with whatever you do.

 

[Mainship Pilot]

BMarler, It would be a lot easier to illustrate if they allow video's here, but there is no visible wobble while running or underway, video shows that.

Luna, Yea, I got what I got, part of the fun of buying used, and as mentioned before, this was "Fixed" in the yard prior to shipping the boat down here to So Cal. I guess without tearing the system apart, what would tightening those 5 allen screws on the front side of the black plate help or hurt? Is it better to leave it alone until we haul next winter for bottom paint and just allow the drip to exist? Thank!!

 

[Bonedoc]

The yard seemingly did not fix the issue. Do you have any remedy to have them pay for a haul out and proper repair( ie something in writing perhaps)?

 

[Mainship Pilot]

Yard is in Canada, I'm in So Cal. Boat shipped to So Cal, right after the yardwork was done. Previous owner paid for the repair, but not the haul out test.

 

[luna]

Tightening the 5 machine screws, unless they are really loose will do nothing to fix the leak. They exist simply to mount the seal into the seal carrier.

If the leak is between the lip seal and the shaft the problem is the lip seal is damaged.
This damage to the seal could have been done by the yard when they installed the new seal (keyway corners) or done by not finishing the shaft correctly. Either way you got what you got.

I would gently snug up the machine screws and leave it alone, other than monitoring.

 

[SeaDogAK]

First place I would look is the manuals for the seal. If this is the right seal, they have a troubleshooting guide on their website with instructions on how to deal with leaks:

https://www.generalpropeller.com/pdf/trouble_shooting.pdf

 

[rgano]

Same boat and same seal here. Eight years from purchase and not one drip. Bilge under it is bone dry after a run down the bay. So, my opinion is NO collection of water in the bilge is allowable while sitting and hopefully little i9f any underway. The spare seal in its carrier is still there, and I imagine it might be the same seal sine the boat was new in 2005. I see you do not have the spare mounted in its carrier on the shaft in front of your shaft seal - maybe the yard used it to "fix" it. Maybe the yard damaged the spare when the slid it back. Maybe there is a rough portion of the shaft under the seal which will drip as well as damage the seal. While you can probably disconnect and pull the shaft aft a few inches in order to pull off the flange and install a new seal and a new spare, ensuring the shaft surface is smooth will be more difficult. Best to haul it out and do all the above, after checking the shaft for smooth running visually and with a dial indicator if available before haul out.

 

[Mainship Pilot]

Thanks guys, Was at the boat today, after not being there for 3 days, had about 1/2 gallon of water in the bilge, so it’s stil” an annoying drip. I tightened down all the clamps…..but not too much. Will see if that changes anything, but I don’t hold any hope on that. I’ll just keep an eye on it and clean out the bilge every visit.

 

[Bmarler]

you should take a few minutes and check out the link in post #19
tides implies the seal can be shifted forward on the shaft if there's a nice polished spot to go to that's within the installation area. it might be worth looking at. that seal can be disassembled in place and the shaft inspected. water will flow, don't be alarmed. heck, maybe there's just some crud there where the seal is that needs polished off. if the seal isn't damaged, it may seal up.

 

[Mainship Pilot]

Same boat and same seal here. Eight years from purchase and not one drip. Bilge under it is bone dry after a run down the bay. So, my opinion is NO collection of water in the bilge is allowable while sitting and hopefully little i9f any underway. The spare seal in its carrier is still there, and I imagine it might be the same seal sine the boat was new in 2005. I see you do not have the spare mounted in its carrier on the shaft in front of your shaft seal - maybe the yard used it to "fix" it. Maybe the yard damaged the spare when the slid it back. Maybe there is a rough portion of the shaft under the seal which will drip as well as damage the seal. While you can probably disconnect and pull the shaft aft a few inches in order to pull off the flange and install a new seal and a new spare, ensuring the shaft surface is smooth will be more difficult. Best to haul it out and do all the above, after checking the shaft for smooth running visually and with a dial indicator if available before haul out.

Yea, It’s a process, as I uncover issues as I go thru the boat. Nothing bad, just little things, you might expect in a 20 year old boat, but overall, I have been pleasantly surprised! The hull on the Mainship is a battle wagon! Question, does your numbers come pretty close to these? So far mine do. I’ve been cruising at 2800 RPM, at about 15 knots. And getting about 6.5 GPH

 

[Helmsman]

The tides shaft seals have a recommended useful life of 6 years, or did three years ago when I had them replaced on a boat I have since sold. The best course of action is to replace it. To do that, have the boat pulled, and then insure the shaft is checked for trueness, polished where the seal goes, and make sure they add a replacement seal to be used in the future. The problem will only get worse, and if it fails can be real issue for you.

Just my opinion, but not worth risking the boat over.

 

[Comodave]

We have Norscott shaft logs in our boat. They are lubricated by a small reservoir of ATF. Our boat is 25 years old and I am certain that the logs have never been worked on. This last summer the port side started loosing ATF. Called Norscott, wonderful service, and asked about how to approach the issue. They gave me some ideas but access is difficult so I did his last suggestion which was to replace the ATF with 30 weight motor oil. I did that and the leak quit. But I wanted to rebuild the shaft log this winter. What a PITA, not because of the Norscott shaft log but rather getting the shaft coupler off. It is a tapered shaft with a lock nut inside of the coupler. I tried to buy a socket to get the nut off. Finally I asked Formula what size the nut is. They sent me the information they had and also provided the manufacturer of the shaft. I called the shaft manufacturer and told them what I was trying to do. They were outstanding. They said I needed a socket that is turned down to fit inside the coupler. They made a socket and shipped it to me. I got it in 2 days and it cost $65. And it fit perfectly. 5 minutes and the nut was off. I have it all apart now and have put the new seals in the log. I want to do some cleaning while I have the shaft out of the way. But I think I am over the hill as far as getting this done. Then we will replace the cutlass bearings and call it done.

 

[luna]

Comodave.

It's not hard to install the shaft log. The Norscot installalation tool (a 3" piece of the right sized tube) is really helpful, as is having the machinist finish the shaft as to eliminate any possibility of nicking the lip seal. Lubricate it well with ATF and it slides right on.

If you are anal like me, have the shaft trued, lap the coupler to the shaft and have the machine shop index and face of the coupler as then you know that when things go back together it's all aligned. No spiral grooves on the shaft and my finish is with 400 grit wet paper. It's really no different than a rear main seal's running surface.
To survive, lip seals must run on a smooth surface.

The biggest problem with my 3" shafts is always getting the coupler off of the taper at the end of the shaft once the the end bolt is removed. I made a simple 4 bolt puller, loaded it up as much as I dared and then applied lots of heat quickly, while slowly turning the shaft. Two minutes later, bang, off jumps the coupler. No hammer blows required. You do have to refinish the coupler, white paint with a spiral black pinstripe, always looks nice.

JM Clipper lip seals bought in a box of 12 are about 20% of the cost of the same seal bought from Norscot. But support whomever you want.

Good luck with the Cutless bearing replacement.

 

[Comodave]

I should not need the installation tool since I have a tapered shaft. The coupler came off fairly easily with the plate I made to press it off. I have to prop the shaft tomorrow before I put it back together.

 

[luna]

Take your time when you prop? (prep.) the shaft, it's time consuming but important to get it right.

 

[Comodave]

Yup, I have some 150 emory cloth ready.

 

[twistedtree]

The tides shaft seals have a recommended useful life of 6 years, or did three years ago when I had them replaced on a boat I have since sold. The best course of action is to replace it. To do that, have the boat pulled, and then insure the shaft is checked for trueness, polished where the seal goes, and make sure they add a replacement seal to be used in the future. The problem will only get worse, and if it fails can be real issue for you.

Just my opinion, but not worth risking the boat over.

And with Tides you can pre-install one or more spare seals that can then be slid into place for a simple, in water seal replacement. That way you can go for a decade or more without requiring a haulout.