Finally got steadying sail rigged

[Lostsailor13]

Mounted the flip up screw on steps to the mast to mount halyard,gotta take it out for test run this long holiday weekend

 

[rgano]

Are ya gonna find you a "blow" to test out the steadying sail ride versus no-sail ride?

 

[OldDan1943]

loose foot or with a boom?

picture of step and sail rigged, what is the height of mast?

Is it an official Willard rig or something you designed?

 

[Lostsailor13]

It is the original setup from Willard,except besides the halyard setup,but mast,boom,sail track and sail are all original and I added flip up screw on steps up the mast so I could add halyard without dropping mast

 

[markpierce]

Does such a small sail of yours have a practical purpose?

 

[OldDan1943]

Does such a small sail of yours have a practical purpose?

Come on Mark. It is designed, in theory, to reduce the rolling by delaying the return from a roll or maintaining the degree of the roll, not for getting home.
Not all of use have the space for a real sailing rig like yours. SMILE

 

[trawlercap]

Good luck with it, I’ll be watching here for your impressions.

 

[markpierce]

Come on Mark. It is designed, in theory, to reduce the rolling by delaying the return from a roll or maintaining the degree of the roll, not for getting home.
Not all of use have the space for a real sailing rig like yours. SMILE

Dan, you are over-estimating the capabilities of my sail rig, several times larger than the OP's. Mine won't sail home unless the destination is downwind. Rolling dampening is minor.

 

[OldDan1943]

Dan, you are over-estimating the capabilities of my sail rig, several times larger than the OP's. Mine won't sail home unless the destination is downwind. Rolling dampening is minor.

Over estimate? Really? Sort of like my Nordhavn. Must be the color of your sails that makes it look pretty. TEASE
Yea, we know, down wind but, we can cheat a little bit. Very inefficient design but, better than nothing. His sail might have the greatest effect at anchor.

I took my fwd mast off so I didn't have to clear so many bridges. Next owner took the aft mast off too.
It was one of those, "seemed like a good idea" that didn't really work out.
Plus, it takes 2 or 3 people and 1/2 a day to get it rigged for sailing.

 

[Fish53]

Dan, you are over-estimating the capabilities of my sail rig, several times larger than the OP's. Mine won't sail home unless the destination is downwind. Rolling dampening is minor.

Here in Maine there's a saying "Looks right is right" but I have to agree I don't see that sail having much affect on roll. Perhaps with a gaff or a sprite rig to increase sail area higher up it may. It would be hard to make the sail be too large, a little drive never hurts.

 

[OldDan1943]

Well, we can all sit around and wait for the update of the Willard rig.

 

[CaptTom]

Lots of lobster boats used to (some still do) run steadying sails. Then again, lobstermen tend to follow tradition, without any real evidence.

I could easily rig a sail on my mast and boom, but I doubt it would add to stability. I already have a lot of windage on the house, flybridge and flybridge enclosure. But I'm still interested to hear if the OP sees any real improvement.

 

[psneeld]

Sails for sailing, steadying sails and riding sails are 3 different kinds of sails, mostly cut differently and rigged differently to be efficient for their 3 separate jobs.

One kind may help with another problem, but really meant for something else.

 

[Fish53]

Lots of lobster boats used to (some still do) run steadying sails. Then again, lobstermen tend to follow tradition, without any real evidence.

I could easily rig a sail on my mast and boom, but I doubt it would add to stability. I already have a lot of windage on the house, flybridge and flybridge enclosure. But I'm still interested to hear if the OP sees any real improvement.

Lobsterboats use a riding sail so the boat will tend to the wind, it has little if any effect on roll attenuation, which is the purpose of a steadying sail. A flybridge and enclosure I doubt would have a discernable benefit, most steadying sails I've seen are in fact too small in area to do much. The old rule of thumb for sail area to drive a vessel was 100 square feet to the ton, which is obviously just a rough guide. To size a riding sail you could do a stability test to calculate the righting moment of your boat, which isn't too difficult or just trial and error, which may be expensive.

 

[psneeld]

Driving a vessel and steadying a vessel are 2 different kinds of sail systems.

 

[Fish53]

Driving a vessel and steadying a vessel are 2 different kinds of sail systems.

Not entirely, a driving sail can do a hell of a lot of steadying not to mention other benefits such as emergency propulsion and fuel savings. It is correct that a true steadying sail would not be designed to provide drive as it would be flat with the intention of damping roll rather than eliminating it.

 

[psneeld]

So you totally agree with me and my post #13 where I did say one system can help with another..like a mizzen on a ketch/yawl helping as a riding sail.

One can help with another but not necessarily the reverse.

The 3 systems have been debated/discussed for years here without a realistic understanding of the 3 different sail systems.


.

 

[Fish53]

So you totally agree with me and my post #13 where I did say one system can help with another..like a mizzen on a ketch/yawl helping as a riding sail.

One can help with another but not necessarily the reverse.

The 3 systems have been debated/discussed for years here without a realistic understanding of the 3 different sail systems.


.

Sure, as a general statement I do agree with you. However take for instance your mention of a mizzen on a ketch/yawl helping as a riding sail. A mizzen would be cut to be a driving sail and while in decent location to function as such it would still make a poor one unless somehow you could keep the wind on one side otherwise the sail flapping about would drive you nuts. This isn't to say that with some experimentation you couldn't find a way to make it work however. I believe I would prefer to put effort into rigging a driving sail rather than a straight steadying sail. Why put up a mast and rigging and have a sail made then still have a roll and none of the other benefits of flying a sail?

 

[psneeld]

Sure, as a general statement I do agree with you. However take for instance your mention of a mizzen on a ketch/yawl helping as a riding sail. A mizzen would be cut to be a driving sail and while in decent location to function as such it would still make a poor one unless somehow you could keep the wind on one side otherwise the sail flapping about would drive you nuts. This isn't to say that with some experimentation you couldn't find a way to make it work however. I believe I would prefer to put effort into rigging a driving sail rather than a straight steadying sail. Why put up a mast and rigging and have a sail made then still have a roll and none of the other benefits of flying a sail?

And thats why I said there was overlap a bit but no, mizzens are not riding sails even if they may have some effectiveness if used well.

I find it comical you are arguing with me as I seem to be the one that knows the difference of all 3 systems.

To answer your question, a suitable mast and rigging might work, but may need 2 different cut and weight cloth sails to be better for each application.

Like Marks Coot, a jib or other sails can be added for drive.

 

[OldDan1943]

LOL Oh you guys..... wrong name, wrong cut, wrong material....
Push come to shove, if I have a mast, I will sting up a bed sheet or towels. LOL
I have sailed a canoe with a vertical paddle, a shirt over the paddle tied to the gunnels, steering with the other paddle.
If my engine craps out, I have 2 boat hooks and bed sheets, towels and nylon cordage. You know I am going to poke the two poles in the air, string the sheets and sail down wind or back the sheets against the poles. Dont knock a square rig.
I may not look pretty, like Mark's rig, but, until help arrives, I will be doing something and it might even work a little bit.

 

[Fish53]

And thats why I said there was overlap a bit but no, mizzens are not riding sails even if they may have some effectiveness if used well.

I find it comical you are arguing with me as I seem to be the one that knows the difference of all 3 systems.

To answer your question, a suitable mast and rigging might work, but may need 2 different cut and weight cloth sails to be better for each application.

Like Marks Coot, a jib or other sails can be added for drive.

I'm unaware of any "arguing"? I thought I expressed a qualified agreement, it's not like you're wrong it's just not as profound as you imagine.

 

[psneeld]

I do think they are profoundly different, but can have overlap. That's what my research and experience has shown.

Just trying to make the difference between the 3 types of rigs are more clear than some make them. Assuming one can fulfill 2 categories is what kes the subject muddied.

 

[Fish53]

I get your point and for some a cut and dried view may be useful, unfortunately I'm an unapologetic tinkerer so I don't always categorize things very rigidly.

 

[AusCan]

I do think they are profoundly different, but can have overlap. That's what my research and experience has shown.

Just trying to make the difference between the 3 types of rigs are more clear than some make them. Assuming one can fulfill 2 categories is what keeps the subject muddied.

I'm not sure why you don't think a standard sailing rig for propulsion can't also fulfill a the role of roll attenuation. Any sailboat will become more stabilized with the sails raised. It may not be as efficient as a rig designed specifically for roll attenuation especially in very light winds, but it certainly fulfills multiple roles.
Many mizzen sail rigs can also be used for both propulsion and as a riding sail.

A boat's design always has plenty of compromises. Nothing is perfect for all roles, but we find a package that fits our needs.

 

[koliver]

Bottom line here is that to be effective, any sail, for driving, for steadying, or simply for riding while at anchor, needs to be of a minimum size that will likely be too big for the location available on most trawlers.
Mark has driving sails. He frequently posts pictures of them, so most of us are familiar. Yet he has never given us the impression they are effective enough to actually be of some use. Sure, they will get him home, provided that home is downwind, and that he is happy to go in that general direction at some very low speed.

Steadying sails that sometimes appear here, may actually provide some reduction of the magnitude and improvement of the period of roll. It is unlikely that they provide sufficient help to justify their expense and the time taken to rig them. Thus we don't get posters with a true success story to tell.

Riding sails appear here much less frequently, as very few of us have boats equipped with a mast and boom system that is located far enough aft for a riding sail to counteract the side forces created by large house structures that are further forward.
Riding sails, if properly located and of sufficient size, will do a great job eliminating hunting/sailing around while at anchor. They are just not practical on most of our boats, so we don't see success stories posted.

 

[psneeld]

You know a person understands the concepts of the three types of sails and how the physics make each a separate but possibly overlapping concept.

Sure a "sailboat" or "motorsailer" will reduce roll on many points of sail but dead downwind on a light air day .....not so much....and that is where a proper steadying sail still will to a small degree. Isn't that when most sailors sheet in tight and turn on the engine? It is in my experience.