FL120 gage overhaul - Nolan RS11?

[socalrider]

I'm contemplating a comprehensive gage overhaul for my twin FL120s. My tachometers are the old Motorola units (alternator senders) which aren't terribly accurate & cut out when the batteries are fully charged, particularly if my solar is charging.

Both voltmeters are dead, the ammeters are long disconnected. My flybridge doesn't have exhaust temps & one water temp doesn't work. It's a mess & most importantly I don't really trust even the working gages.

I'm contemplating a complete re-do, maybe installing magnetic tach senders on the flywheels & running everything to an RS11, which has two tach inputs and six analog inputs (water temp, oil pres, exhaust temp for each engine). I imagine pulling the whole gage pack out & replacing with something that plugs into the RS-11 N2k or Canbus backbone, either analog or digital.

https://nolandeng.com/product/rs11-basic-startup-system/

Any comments? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's been through this.

 

[grahamdouglass]

Some information on gauges

I follow a vlog on a guy rebuilding his old motor cruiser in Victoria B.C.

This is the vlog on his gauges

This is the address of his gauges

Gauges: Universal-Fit, Custom and High-Performance | SPEEDHUT®

Every episode he has a beer of the week, its pretty entertaining.

The only gauge work I did on my own was replace my oil pressure and tempreture gauges. I replaced my Stewart Warner with Faria. It was pretty straight foraward. But I was also thinking of doing a whole redo of my gauges because my fuel gauges aren't that accurate and my flybridge and lower helm tachs aren't syncronized and they aren't as accurate as they could be.

But whether I really need another boat project is a whole other story.

 

[CaptTom]

I use the Noland RS11. It's been reliable and it was pretty easy to set up.

I kept my analog gauges when I fabricated a new console though. I added one round multi-function NMEA 2000 gauge in the middle of the console, on which I can selectively show various types of engine data. I can also display the N2K data on my chartplotter.

 

[socalrider]

I use the Noland RS11. It's been reliable and it was pretty easy to set up.

I kept my analog gauges when I fabricated a new console though. I added one round multi-function NMEA 2000 gauge in the middle of the console, on which I can selectively show various types of engine data. I can also display the N2K data on my chartplotter.

Thanks - what N2k gage did you go for?

I do like analog gauges, but I'm even contemplating configuring a Raymarine Axiom 7 as a display. You can get them without charts for $450/ea which seems like a pretty solid deal for such a flexible solution.

 

[CaptTom]

Thanks - what N2k gage did you go for?

I was afraid someone would ask. Mine is a Lowrance LMF-400, which I don't think is sold any more.

It works fine, does exactly what I wanted (displays all kinds of N2K data) and fits perfectly in my console.

But I also like the idea of the Axiom (or any other similar) display.

 

[socalrider]

I was afraid someone would ask. Mine is a Lowrance LMF-400, which I don't think is sold any more.

It works fine, does exactly what I wanted (displays all kinds of N2K data) and fits perfectly in my console.

But I also like the idea of the Axiom (or any other similar) display.

Thanks. I'm going to look into it. I'd like to see if I can program in some alarms as well via the Axiom interface. None of my buzzers/alarms work so I'd have to catch something via the analog gage (which as discussed I don't trust) if I had an issue.

Anyone had good luck with a particular mag/pulse tach sender?

 

[catalinajack]

I tried a Noland. I was never able to get it configured. Perhaps I will try it again sometime. To the OP, if you do not have a Glendinning synchronizer, you have unused ports in which you can install a simple pulse generator. Use that to send signals to VDO programmable tachometers. I did that and my tachs read very accurately after they were fine-tuned, a simple process. After the fine-tune they have not needed further adjustment. Yes, I occasionally check the output with a photo tach. The best part of the installation is that the original sending wire from the alternator-driven Motorola tachs can be used as the VDO tachs may be daisy-chained. Any brand of signal generator (7/8 - 18 thread) may be used whether they are two pulse, four, or eight. I used an 8-pulse generator made by Aetna Engineering.

As for temp guages I used VDO also. Using an IR temp gun to check accuracy, the gauges are pretty damn good. Just make sure to get a dual station sender to match the gauge model.

Of course, I used matching VDO oil pressure gauges but, for these, I ran dedicated sending wires to the upper and lower gauges. I have not tested their accuracy.

 

[socalrider]

To the OP, if you do not have a Glendinning synchronizer, you have unused ports in which you can install a simple pulse generator.

Thanks for an extremely helpful post.

Re: the portion quoted above, I don't have a synchronizer - by port you mean a port in the FL120 bell housing somewhere? Can you describe exactly where?

I think if I want my alt tach senders to work all the time I'll need to shut off the PV panels. This is fine but a bit annoying; if it's easy to screw a couple of new senders into the engine housing I think I'd prefer to go that route.

 

[catalinajack]

The port is just above the oil cooler on the starboard side of the engine. This picture tells the whole story. The pulse generator has the red cap just to the right of the Racor on-engine fuel filter.

Thanks for an extremely helpful post.

Re: the portion quoted above, I don't have a synchronizer - by port you mean a port in the FL120 bell housing somewhere? Can you describe exactly where?

I think if I want my alt tach senders to work all the time I'll need to shut off the PV panels. This is fine but a bit annoying; if it's easy to screw a couple of new senders into the engine housing I think I'd prefer to go that route.

 

[Pau Hana]

Here ya go- our Chetco Digital install:

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/project-engine-gauges-analog-nmea-2000-a-43803.html

 

[socalrider]

The port is just above the oil cooler on the starboard side of the engine. This picture tells the whole story. The pulse generator has the red cap just to the right of the Racor on-engine fuel filter.

Thanks - super helpful.

Here ya go- our Chetco Digital install:

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/project-engine-gauges-analog-nmea-2000-a-43803.html

Wow, what a rabbit hole...

I'm trying to keep things simple, but looks like there are a lot of considerations here. I'd like to do the RS-11 as it seems the most straightforward as long as I don't run into the tach issues; I pinged them to see if there's a specific sender they'd recommend to minimize issues. I suspect that'll be better than using the alternator senders but I asked about that as well.

EGT seems like a real sticking point since it's a thermocouple (requires a signal amplifier) and there's not a dedicated N2K channel for this data. I might just keep the existing gauge for that.

I'm putting in a totally independent Borel exhaust temp alarm system regardless as that seems to be the single most important thing to keep tabs on.

 

[socalrider]

Reviving this thread to see if anyone else has some fresh experience. After a summer of cruising, I need to bite the bullet and replace and re-wire my helm stations' gauges, alarms and switches. The cost of replacing all the analog gauges is likely higher than going to a NMEA+display solution.

Having read through Pau Hana's threads & the others it links to, it seems that:

1. Noland is a simple and robust solution but has serious trouble integrating a tach signal

2. Chetco's hardware is top notch but their software sucks, their responsiveness is no longer very good

3. ActiSense EMU-1 might be the best solution for a relatively simple install based on this thread at ClubSeaRay

So right now I'm contemplating a single EMU-1 with the NGT-1 NMEA-PC interface. Last time I contacted Noland they said they were working on fixing the tach issue so I'll ping them as well.

 

[sbman]

I've used an Alba Combi to accomplish this with dual Ford Lehmans. It's been a simple, reliable device that has it's own built in web server for configuration, so you just plug it into your laptop or a wifi access point and you can configure it. The support is slow (they are in Spain) but it's not hard to figure out at all.

It has an N2K output that I hooked up to Simrad and it's been very reliable aside from the RPM indication, but that is the fault of the pickup being sourced from the alternators and the Balmar regulators have a nasty habit of shutting the alternators down after the charge profile is complete, despite setting it to not do that.

I used all the existing Lehman senders with no issues aside from needing to do a manual calibration on them since I didn't have a profile for them pre-existing in the software.

 

[socalrider]

I've used an Alba Combi to accomplish this with dual Ford Lehmans. It's been a simple, reliable device that has it's own built in web server for configuration, so you just plug it into your laptop or a wifi access point and you can configure it. The support is slow (they are in Spain) but it's not hard to figure out at all.

It has an N2K output that I hooked up to Simrad and it's been very reliable aside from the RPM indication, but that is the fault of the pickup being sourced from the alternators and the Balmar regulators have a nasty habit of shutting the alternators down after the charge profile is complete, despite setting it to not do that.

I used all the existing Lehman senders with no issues aside from needing to do a manual calibration on them since I didn't have a profile for them pre-existing in the software.

Thanks! That's very helpful - I've heard of a lot of people having difficulty with that unit, so it's good to know that it works with the Lehman senders.

I've learned that removing the analog gauges messes up the calibration (at least for the emu-1) for dual station senders. I suspect this might be an issue with all of the gateways mentioned. With only four senders to worry about (2x temp/oil pres) it's probably easiest to get a new set of known single station senders. Brian at American Diesel says they can be bought at an auto parts store for cheap.

For the tach, I'm having the same issue with my Balmar alternator. I suspect that my other unregulated motorola alternator is putting out enough to tell the Balmar to shut down due to slightly different float setpoints.

Aetna makes mechanical drives & senders that can fit our Lehmans for $250/engine. I am looking into rigging up a simple hall effect sender and epoxying a magnet to the crankshaft pulley, or I might just bite the bullet and spend the $500. Reliable tach signal would be nice to have, and I'm a bit fed up with fussing with the alternator signals.

 

[catalinajack]

Thanks! That's very helpful - I've heard of a lot of people having difficulty with that unit, so it's good to know that it works with the Lehman senders.



I've learned that removing the analog gauges messes up the calibration (at least for the emu-1) for dual station senders. I suspect this might be an issue with all of the gateways mentioned. With only four senders to worry about (2x temp/oil pres) it's probably easiest to get a new set of known single station senders. Brian at American Diesel says they can be bought at an auto parts store for cheap.



For the tach, I'm having the same issue with my Balmar alternator. I suspect that my other unregulated motorola alternator is putting out enough to tell the Balmar to shut down due to slightly different float setpoints.



Aetna makes mechanical drives & senders that can fit our Lehmans for $250/engine. I am looking into rigging up a simple hall effect sender and epoxying a magnet to the crankshaft pulley, or I might just bite the bullet and spend the $500. Reliable tach signal would be nice to have, and I'm a bit fed up with fussing with the alternator signals.

I used the Aetna senders with programmable tachs. Once programmed they report quite accurately. Occassionally, I check the tachs against a phototach reading. But, the Aetna product is just a pulse generator. Stewart Warner and Autometer has them for about $130 and $110, respectively. If you have dual stations, the signal can be daisy-chained.

 

[grahamdouglass]

One of the items on my endless list of projects is to replace all my gauges with a nice Faria set of off white gauges with gold bezel. Just recently both tachs failed (upper and lower station) and then started working again, so mabey its time. I only have one engine, a FL 120.

 

[sbman]

Thanks! That's very helpful - I've heard of a lot of people having difficulty with that unit, so it's good to know that it works with the Lehman senders.

I've learned that removing the analog gauges messes up the calibration (at least for the emu-1) for dual station senders. I suspect this might be an issue with all of the gateways mentioned. With only four senders to worry about (2x temp/oil pres) it's probably easiest to get a new set of known single station senders. Brian at American Diesel says they can be bought at an auto parts store for cheap.

For the tach, I'm having the same issue with my Balmar alternator. I suspect that my other unregulated motorola alternator is putting out enough to tell the Balmar to shut down due to slightly different float setpoints.

Aetna makes mechanical drives & senders that can fit our Lehmans for $250/engine. I am looking into rigging up a simple hall effect sender and epoxying a magnet to the crankshaft pulley, or I might just bite the bullet and spend the $500. Reliable tach signal would be nice to have, and I'm a bit fed up with fussing with the alternator signals.

If your senders are dual station senders, they have a different resistance range than single station senders. There should be no reason to replace them just because you remove the analog gauges, you just need to calibrate for the range of the senders you have. If you plan to keep one set of analog gauges, then you would need to use single station senders or the analog gauges won't read correctly. That's not to say that the specific analog converter you want to use supports the dual station senders. With the Alba Combi, I just calibrated it myself using a couple of simple test rigs, the Alba Combi allows you to create your own calibration curve.

I'm thinking of doing the same with a hall effect sensor for my DD's, I'll be converting them to digital (N2K) using an Alba Combi as well, and I won't want to pick up the signal from the alternator.

As you get into your gauge project, you might check into the Veratron VL Flex 52. It's a 2.25" round gauge display that can show N2K data. If you have a need for a discrete display or two, these are inexpensive, small and very flexible to show a variety of N2K data.

https://www.veratron.com/news/veratron-launches-vl-flex-52-device/

 

[sbman]

Thanks! That's very helpful - I've heard of a lot of people having difficulty with that unit, so it's good to know that it works with the Lehman senders.

The Alba Combi is very flexible and can work with any sender that you have, you just need to calibrate it yourself. The instructions aren't great and there are a couple of things they don't mention at all that I had to get from their support staff which took a long time, but they did eventually respond. I can see why people would have some trouble getting it set up, especially if you aren't technically minded.

I really like that it's very flexible allowing you to configure it from any web browser, you can even use an iPad to configure it.

I'm happy to help anyone that is implementing one, I've been through all of the common issues with it.

 

[socalrider]

As you get into your gauge project, you might check into the Veratron VL Flex 52. It's a 2.25" round gauge display that can show N2K data. If you have a need for a discrete display or two, these are inexpensive, small and very flexible to show a variety of N2K data.

https://www.veratron.com/news/veratron-launches-vl-flex-52-device/

Wow - that looks fantastic. Do you know if those gauges can function as an N2K gateway? I see you can hook them up to an N2K backbone to display data on that network, or you can wire them to a sender. It'd be fantastic if I could wire these up to my sender for the lower helm station, then up to the upper station via N2K!

 

[sbman]

Wow - that looks fantastic. Do you know if those gauges can function as an N2K gateway? I see you can hook them up to an N2K backbone to display data on that network, or you can wire them to a sender. It'd be fantastic if I could wire these up to my sender for the lower helm station, then up to the upper station via N2K!

That's something I'm not sure about. It's a device that's been on my radar for a while, and I haven't used one yet, although. I'm planning to purchase one shortly for use as a fixed depth display from my N2K depth sounder.

When used with directly connected sensors, I'm not clear if it transmits that data on the N2K network, but I would sure hope it did, that would be a very useful function.

 

[socalrider]

That's something I'm not sure about. It's a device that's been on my radar for a while, and I haven't used one yet, although. I'm planning to purchase one shortly for use as a fixed depth display from my N2K depth sounder.

When used with directly connected sensors, I'm not clear if it transmits that data on the N2K network, but I would sure hope it did, that would be a very useful function.

Indeed - it would eliminate the need for the engine gateway entirely, saving $400-700 and the need to figure out the interface. Six of them would cover my needs (one for temp/pres, one for RPM x 2 engines x 2 helms) but I might get eight. I'd prefer the dedicated gauges to another MFD at that price I think.

I found a manual here & it sure looks like it'll work as a gateway. Maybe less flexibility for calibrating senders, but probably easier to just swap in a compatible sender than mess with another box.

Thanks for this sbman - this looks like just the ticket.

EDIT: just downloaded the app - it's amazingly straightforward, and allows for manual input of calibration curves. Very excited! I think I'll go ahead and order some of these to start playing around with.

 

[sbman]

Indeed - it would eliminate the need for the engine gateway entirely, saving $400-700 and the need to figure out the interface. Four of them would cover my needs (one for temp/pres, one for RPM x 2 engines). I'd prefer the dedicated gauges to another MFD at that price I think.

I found a manual here & it sure looks like it'll work as a gateway. Maybe less flexibility for calibrating senders, but probably easier to just swap in a compatible sender than mess with another box.

Thanks for this sbman - this looks like just the ticket.

Technically I can see some issues with using them to put data on the N2K network. Engine data is set out with a couple of 'group' PGN that contains all the parameters in two groups. The groups are engine parameters 'rapid' and engine parameters 'dynamic'. With each value being sent from a different device you would have a bunch of these group PGNs with lots of blank values, as each sensor would only know the one data point it's connected to. For example the oil pressure sensor/gauge could only send oil pressure and then missing/empty/zero data for all other values that normally go in that group. This could wreak havoc with other devices attempting to display the data.

 

[socalrider]

Technically I can see some issues with using them to put data on the N2K network. Engine data is set out with a couple of 'group' PGN that contains all the parameters in two groups. The groups are engine parameters 'rapid' and engine parameters 'dynamic'. With each value being sent from a different device you would have a bunch of these group PGNs with lots of blank values, as each sensor would only know the one data point it's connected to. For example the oil pressure sensor/gauge could only send oil pressure and then missing/empty/zero data for all other values that normally go in that group. This could wreak havoc with other devices attempting to display the data.

Interesting. I hope they've figured this out - if it's N2K read-only it's much less of a slam dunk, but this isn't 100% clear from the manual. I'll see if I can get clarity from the mfg before pulling the trigger.

 

[socalrider]

Technically I can see some issues with using them to put data on the N2K network. Engine data is set out with a couple of 'group' PGN that contains all the parameters in two groups. The groups are engine parameters 'rapid' and engine parameters 'dynamic'. With each value being sent from a different device you would have a bunch of these group PGNs with lots of blank values, as each sensor would only know the one data point it's connected to. For example the oil pressure sensor/gauge could only send oil pressure and then missing/empty/zero data for all other values that normally go in that group. This could wreak havoc with other devices attempting to display the data.

Another option is the VDO/Veratron Oceanlink 7" display.

This appears to be a combination display & NMEA gateway. Not cheap at $850, but reasonable versus buying the two devices separately. I could put it at the lower helm and then cover the upper helm with an MFD and/or the Flex gauges.

I sent a note to the Veratron US rep - hope to hear back after the long weekend.

 

[sbman]

There is also this:

https://www.hodgesmarine.com/vera2c1767000001-veratron-enginebox--double-engine.html

Another stand alone engine data gateway for a reasonable price. It looks like VDO is making a push into the yacht market with these products.

I still prefer the Alba Combi for myself, I like the web based interface vs. the custom PC app that most others use. I'll always be able to load up a web browser on anything, when the others stop supporting their custom apps for config, you end up having to replace electronics just so you can use them which I find very annoying.

 

[socalrider]

There is also this:

https://www.hodgesmarine.com/vera2c1767000001-veratron-enginebox--double-engine.html

Another stand alone engine data gateway for a reasonable price. It looks like VDO is making a push into the yacht market with these products.

I still prefer the Alba Combi for myself, I like the web based interface vs. the custom PC app that most others use. I'll always be able to load up a web browser on anything, when the others stop supporting their custom apps for config, you end up having to replace electronics just so you can use them which I find very annoying.

Yeah I'm a mac guy so the idea of a PC interface is not great. I use an emulator when I need to, which works... most of the time. It's another potential thing to rid me of the few hairs I have left.

The VDO 7" screen gateway is appealing because the screen itself is the interface, but I agree the Alba Combi web interface is appealing as well. I haven't heard much about the Veratron/VDO stuff from actual users which of course makes me nervous as well.

Man if those little $100 52mm Veratron gauges can work on their own that'd be sweet.

 

[catalinajack]

There is also this:

https://www.hodgesmarine.com/vera2c1767000001-veratron-enginebox--double-engine.html

Another stand alone engine data gateway for a reasonable price. It looks like VDO is making a push into the yacht market with these products.

I still prefer the Alba Combi for myself, I like the web based interface vs. the custom PC app that most others use. I'll always be able to load up a web browser on anything, when the others stop supporting their custom apps for config, you end up having to replace electronics just so you can use them which I find very annoying.

Sbman, just wondering, if the product is working but the company stops supporting the custom app why would this be a problem? Wouldn't the product keep working just as it always had? I do like the concept of the Alba Combi product however. I tried the Noland product but I never could get the tachometer readout to be accurate and stable. I gave up and instead installed programable analog tachs. The result is, once dialed in (quite simple), they are accurate and stable, no further adjustment required. I no longer have to bother with my Glendinning engine synchronizer. It is just easier to set RPM to the same mark on each engine. Just for fun I may resurrect my Noland this winter and see If I can get the oil pressure and engine temp functions to work.

 

[socalrider]

Quick update: I confirmed with VDO/Veratron that SBMAN is correct: the devices are read-only, not real N2K gateways. Have some thinking to do now.

As of today I'm contemplating the 7" Veratron Oceanlink display as a combined lower helm gauge pack and gateway, and a second Raymarine Axiom MFD for the upper helm gauges. The alternative would be a dedicated gateway box and two MFDs.

I'm probably going to run the alarms (coolant/pressure) as a totally separate 100% analog system (Aqualarm or just some buzzer/lights) for full redundancy.

 

[sbman]

Sbman, just wondering, if the product is working but the company stops supporting the custom app why would this be a problem? Wouldn't the product keep working just as it always had? I do like the concept of the Alba Combi product however. I tried the Noland product but I never could get the tachometer readout to be accurate and stable. I gave up and instead installed programable analog tachs. The result is, once dialed in (quite simple), they are accurate and stable, no further adjustment required. I no longer have to bother with my Glendinning engine synchronizer. It is just easier to set RPM to the same mark on each engine. Just for fun I may resurrect my Noland this winter and see If I can get the oil pressure and engine temp functions to work.

The issue is if the manufacturer stops supporting the app that is used for configuration, five years down the road when you need to replace a bad sensor and need to recalibrate... Can you even get the app anymore? Would you have to find a Windows 7 download and make a virtual machine, hoping the hardware passes through OK? Try to resurrect an ancient iPhone that is also no longer supported? How many hoops will you have to go through to run an unsupported app?

At least with an IP/Browser supported device, loading up a web browser isn't a problem on almost any device and won't be for the foreeseable future.

That said, the alba combi isn't for those that want plug and play, it's definitely a DIY device that requires some technical skill or help from someone that has such skills.

With your Nolan, RPM issues into these types of devices is due to either a noisy signal, or a weak signal. If you get back into it, I'd be happy to help you troubleshoot it.

 

[sbman]

Quick update: I confirmed with VDO/Veratron that SBMAN is correct: the devices are read-only, not real N2K gateways. Have some thinking to do now.

As of today I'm contemplating the 7" Veratron Oceanlink display as a combined lower helm gauge pack and gateway, and a second Raymarine Axiom MFD for the upper helm gauges. The alternative would be a dedicated gateway box and two MFDs.

I'm probably going to run the alarms (coolant/pressure) as a totally separate 100% analog system (Aqualarm or just some buzzer/lights) for full redundancy.

I would think this would be pretty simple solution, especially if you also purchase VDO senders to use with it, being all from the same manufacturer, it should work well. The PGNs for engine data seem to be implemented across brands fairly reliably.

It seems like the engine box and dual MFDs gives you more functionality, the Oceanlink doesn't seem to have any chartplotter abilities at all. What I don't see is any way to connect a PC to do configuration on the enginebox, or a way to connect up to the Oceanlink to upgrade it's firmware. The documentation available online is thin for all their items. I did find this link which at least has some manuals:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1yg1RzIFD3TGDZ-dmC9wcJ6GLYRP9TAiu

Here is the user manual for the Oceanlink 7":

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1AyG8BuAmb5dwBqI8I8O84x06UWI-uSfa

There is an install manual there for the Enginebox with a pinout but nothing on configuration except to say it is done through a PC app. None of the plugs/wires on either device look to be directly PC compatible. After reading through the Oceanlink 7" user manual, it says you need a VDO USB Diagnostic tool to upgrade it's firmware. I'm going to bet this is the same tool you need to configure the Enginebox with. I found what MAY be it here:

https://www.hodgesmarine.com/vera2c3931270001-veratron-diagnostic-tool.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwm9yJBhDTARIsABKIcGbcxzWuozj7l3gG9-uqJDUGvwguOeBGQoZmhY3oUz7I7miEgEKF4z4aAi12EALw_wcB

At an additional $475 for the custom dongle, and a non documented, required PC app that doesn't seem to be downloadable anywhere, I think these solutions would be a non-starter for me on the VDO line.

I still like the 52mm flex gauge for certain display situations though, at least it's only $100 if it gets to where you can't support it anymore.