gray water
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RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. w. I am not aware of ANY no discharge zones (grey water) other than Lake Champlain which is along the northern border between New York and Vermont and subsequently inland.
Mr. w. I am not aware of ANY no discharge zones (grey water) other than Lake Champlain which is along the northern border between New York and Vermont and subsequently inland.
Capt.Bill11
Guru
No regs that I've ever been aware of.
There are only a few placed where gray water holding is required. All are closed intrastate lakes--Lake George NY, Winnepesaukee NH and a couple of reservoirs in California--exceot for a portion of the FL Keys Marine Sanctuary where even bilge pumps aren't allowed to discharge. It's legal for recreational vessels to to discharge gray water overboard everywhere else.
RT, Lake Champlain is a navigable interstate waterway. Like the rest of the Great Lakes, it is an NDZ, but only for toilet waste--at least for recreational vessels and small commercial vessels. However, freighters and other large commercial vessels are subject to different rules and may very well be required to hold gray water too.
I was surprised to learn just recently that the St. Lawrence River is NOT an NDZ...the discharge of treated toilet waste (and gray water too) is legal on all 700+ miles of it. But that may change, at least in the New York portion of it. Here's the article that ran in the March 28 Soundings Trade Only daily newsletter:
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency determined that a no-discharge zone can be established for the New York portion of the river. The state Department of Environmental Conservation petitioned the EPA to take that action to prohibit sewage dumping from boats.
The state and federal agencies determined that the St. Lawrence has enough pumpout facilities to remove waste from all types of vessels, according to the Associated Press.
The EPA is taking public comment until April 25 on its proposed approval of a “no discharge zone.”
New York waters already established as no-discharge zones include lakes Erie, Ontario, Champlain and George, the New York State Canal System and the Hudson River.
The St. Lawrence River is one of the longest rivers in North America and is the outflow for the entire Great Lakes system, according to Save the River, a group formed to prevent pollution in the St. Lawrence. The Great Lakes hold nearly 20 percent of the world’s fresh water.
The river flows 744 miles from Lake Ontario into the world’s largest estuary, the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Only 114 miles of the river are in New York.
I'd love to know how the Save the River folks think that requiring the 5% of boats that discharge treated waste to use a holding tank instead on 114 miles of it can accomplish a d'd thing more than just enforcing the law that's been on the books for 35 years that already requires all boats to hold or treat.
RT, Lake Champlain is a navigable interstate waterway. Like the rest of the Great Lakes, it is an NDZ, but only for toilet waste--at least for recreational vessels and small commercial vessels. However, freighters and other large commercial vessels are subject to different rules and may very well be required to hold gray water too.
I was surprised to learn just recently that the St. Lawrence River is NOT an NDZ...the discharge of treated toilet waste (and gray water too) is legal on all 700+ miles of it. But that may change, at least in the New York portion of it. Here's the article that ran in the March 28 Soundings Trade Only daily newsletter:
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency determined that a no-discharge zone can be established for the New York portion of the river. The state Department of Environmental Conservation petitioned the EPA to take that action to prohibit sewage dumping from boats.
The state and federal agencies determined that the St. Lawrence has enough pumpout facilities to remove waste from all types of vessels, according to the Associated Press.
The EPA is taking public comment until April 25 on its proposed approval of a “no discharge zone.”
New York waters already established as no-discharge zones include lakes Erie, Ontario, Champlain and George, the New York State Canal System and the Hudson River.
The St. Lawrence River is one of the longest rivers in North America and is the outflow for the entire Great Lakes system, according to Save the River, a group formed to prevent pollution in the St. Lawrence. The Great Lakes hold nearly 20 percent of the world’s fresh water.
The river flows 744 miles from Lake Ontario into the world’s largest estuary, the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Only 114 miles of the river are in New York.
I'd love to know how the Save the River folks think that requiring the 5% of boats that discharge treated waste to use a holding tank instead on 114 miles of it can accomplish a d'd thing more than just enforcing the law that's been on the books for 35 years that already requires all boats to hold or treat.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Ms. HM. "...Like the rest of the Great Lakes, it is an NDZ, but only for toilet waste..." NOT according to THIS publication: Bottom of Page 6...
IT IS ILLEGAL TO DISCHARGE TOILET WASTE, RAW
SEWAGE, AND GREYWATER INTO LAKE CHAMPLAIN.
http://www.lakechamplaincommittee.org/fileadmin/files/Publications/English_Boating_Manual.pdf
Dispose of greywater properly. "Greywater" is rinse water
from boat sinks and showers. It is illegal in New York and
Vermont to discharge greywater into Lake Champlain. (middle of page 7)
Ms. HM. "...Like the rest of the Great Lakes, it is an NDZ, but only for toilet waste..." NOT according to THIS publication: Bottom of Page 6...
IT IS ILLEGAL TO DISCHARGE TOILET WASTE, RAW
SEWAGE, AND GREYWATER INTO LAKE CHAMPLAIN.
http://www.lakechamplaincommittee.org/fileadmin/files/Publications/English_Boating_Manual.pdf
Dispose of greywater properly. "Greywater" is rinse water
from boat sinks and showers. It is illegal in New York and
Vermont to discharge greywater into Lake Champlain. (middle of page 7)
If you'll read pages 7-8 carefully, it should become obvious that what they're calling "gray" water (galley, bath and shower water) is actually "black" water (sewage)...'cuz it ONLY discusses toilet waste...only one short sentence at the very end that even mentions actual "gray water," saying "dispose of it properly" and claiming that it's illegal to discharge it. I dunno how they expect people to "properly dispose" of it...collecting shower water in a bucket is hardly practical, and then what do they expect you to do with the bucket? If they expect it to go into the "black water" tank, combining gray and black in the same tank violates USCG regs.
So while they're correct that gray water discharge is illegal in New York and Vermont INTRAstate waters but I don't think they can require it in INTERstate navigable waterway under USCG jurisdiction.
It wouldn't be the first think the folks with an advanced case of "Barney Fife syndrome" on Champlain have triedto do. They also claims that even transient vessels not only have to use tanks, but must also disconnect any plumbing to a thru-hull from a Type I or II or tank overboard discharge pump. They CAN require that of resident vessels, but it's unenforceable under federal law--which supercedes state and local law--that only requires transients to secure the system using one of the methods described in 33 CRF 159.7. However, "loopers" aren't willing to test it, so they disconnect the plumbing anyway.
You've certainly given me something to dig into, RT...and I definitely will! It'll have to keep for a week or two though, 'cuz I'm headed to California for the Strictly Sail Pacific show in Oakland in a couple of days. Meanwhile, I've bookmarked that link...thanks for posting it.
So while they're correct that gray water discharge is illegal in New York and Vermont INTRAstate waters but I don't think they can require it in INTERstate navigable waterway under USCG jurisdiction.
It wouldn't be the first think the folks with an advanced case of "Barney Fife syndrome" on Champlain have triedto do. They also claims that even transient vessels not only have to use tanks, but must also disconnect any plumbing to a thru-hull from a Type I or II or tank overboard discharge pump. They CAN require that of resident vessels, but it's unenforceable under federal law--which supercedes state and local law--that only requires transients to secure the system using one of the methods described in 33 CRF 159.7. However, "loopers" aren't willing to test it, so they disconnect the plumbing anyway.
You've certainly given me something to dig into, RT...and I definitely will! It'll have to keep for a week or two though, 'cuz I'm headed to California for the Strictly Sail Pacific show in Oakland in a couple of days. Meanwhile, I've bookmarked that link...thanks for posting it.
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Wxx3
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"I'd love to know how the Save the River folks think that requiring the 5% of boats that discharge treated waste to use a holding tank instead on 114 miles of it can accomplish a d'd thing more than just enforcing the law that's been on the books for 35 years that already requires all boats to hold or treat."
Because we stopped using science in this country to make enviromental decisions long ago. Now, virtually every decision from highway safety to waterways is based on idealogy.
If it's good for a small enclosed lake, it must be good for a river that has a discharge of 350,000 cu-ft/second.
AND how many small, pleasure boats use this river versus commercial traffic that is thousands of times larger that discharge thousands of tons of things far more dangerous than crap!
Because we stopped using science in this country to make enviromental decisions long ago. Now, virtually every decision from highway safety to waterways is based on idealogy.
If it's good for a small enclosed lake, it must be good for a river that has a discharge of 350,000 cu-ft/second.
AND how many small, pleasure boats use this river versus commercial traffic that is thousands of times larger that discharge thousands of tons of things far more dangerous than crap!
RTF, Peggy, others
I have twice written to the Lake group that published that brochure asking them to cite the NY and/or Vt law that their statement re; grey water refers to.
They have never replied to either letter. I have talked extensively w/ USPS members that are on Lk Champlain and they have indicated there is no legal prohibition of grey water discharge. I've boated there twice now and never had a problem. Many marinas & residents are sensitive to any excessive use of soap while washing boats but that's about it.
psneeld
Guru
I just found through researching Florida Keys stuff that there are some small areas of reef that "seemingly" discuss no discharge of gray water.
Specifically mentions "only engine exhaust water".
I still have to read further, and doubt I would mod my boat for these small habitat restrictions...but...if that legislation has made it through...who knows where else it will pop up.
Specifically mentions "only engine exhaust water".
I still have to read further, and doubt I would mod my boat for these small habitat restrictions...but...if that legislation has made it through...who knows where else it will pop up.
ranger58sb
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???
How the heck could that work? Turn off the engines as you enter, and then coast through?
-Chris
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. ps. How in the heck could one NOT discharge engine exhaust water unless one drifted over the area or the area was closed to motors? Is this area restricted to...gasp...sailors who actually sail?
Mr. 42. Are you reading over my shoulder?
Great minds eh?
Mr. ps. How in the heck could one NOT discharge engine exhaust water unless one drifted over the area or the area was closed to motors? Is this area restricted to...gasp...sailors who actually sail?
Mr. 42. Are you reading over my shoulder?
Great minds eh?
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Drake
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I think that means "only engine exhaust water" is allowed! No other discharge!
SCOTTEDAVIS
Guru
I believe the "only engine exhaust water" is the only allowed discharge and is the exception.
Needs to be quoited in full context.
Needs to be quoited in full context.
You have it right...ONLY engine exhaust water is permitted in these small areas directly on top reefs.
If it's good for a small enclosed lake, it must be good for a river that has a discharge of 350,000 cu-ft/second.
In the late '90s the legal department at the EPA regional office in Atlanta reached the conclusion that "ingress and egress" as described in 40 CFR 140.3(a) https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/140.3 included launch ramps. When I asked, "if there is no way, not even a ramp, to put a boat on a body of water, why would there be any need to apply any marine sanitation laws to it?" they had no answer.
In the late '90s the legal department at the EPA regional office in Atlanta reached the conclusion that "ingress and egress" as described in 40 CFR 140.3(a) https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/140.3 included launch ramps. When I asked, "if there is no way, not even a ramp, to put a boat on a body of water, why would there be any need to apply any marine sanitation laws to it?" they had no answer.
psneeld
Guru
No...I am sorry I wasn't more clear...the small areas ONLY allow cooling water or engine exhaust.
The point is there ARE many "special regulations" that are Federal, State, Local, Park only regs that you still have to live with.
It makes our life more complicated but you can see even with all the experience here...there always seems to be a tidbit here and there that gets brought up when it could have been easily overlooked.
Best to do your homework and be in touch with those that live in, have just cruised in or are about to cruise in an areas you are planning.
Publications, even websites have limitations on currency and accuracy....sometimes it's word of mouth till someone does the research and can actually reference the statute affecting you.
The point is there ARE many "special regulations" that are Federal, State, Local, Park only regs that you still have to live with.
It makes our life more complicated but you can see even with all the experience here...there always seems to be a tidbit here and there that gets brought up when it could have been easily overlooked.
Best to do your homework and be in touch with those that live in, have just cruised in or are about to cruise in an areas you are planning.
Publications, even websites have limitations on currency and accuracy....sometimes it's word of mouth till someone does the research and can actually reference the statute affecting you.
I have twice written to the Lake group that published that brochure asking them to cite the NY and/or Vt law that their statement re; grey water refers to.
I didn't realize till I read your post that the brochure RT cited wasn't produced by any state or local enforcement agency, it's just propaganda from the "Lake Champlain Committee," a self-appointed group of well-meaning people who've decided how things should be and have just enough of their facts right to be dangerous. They aren't even based on Lake Champlain, but in VT! Here's the link to their website The Lake Champlain Committee - Working for a healthy, accessible Lake Champlain
And it's a prime example of how, if some group claims that something is so, people just assume that it is and spread it as "fact." RT fell victim to it, and till I read your post, Don, so did I...I even saved the bookmark to my Laws and Regulations folder!
As soon as I have time after I get back from the show in CA, I'll search state and federal legislation for any citation that backs up their claim that it's illegal to discharge gray water on Champlain and I'll also take another run asking them to produce any. I prob'ly won't have any more luck than you did, though.
I didn't realize till I read your post that the brochure RT cited wasn't produced by any state or local enforcement agency, it's just propaganda from the "Lake Champlain Committee," a self-appointed group of well-meaning people who've decided how things should be and have just enough of their facts right to be dangerous. They aren't even based on Lake Champlain, but in VT! Here's the link to their website The Lake Champlain Committee - Working for a healthy, accessible Lake Champlain
And it's a prime example of how, if some group claims that something is so, people just assume that it is and spread it as "fact." RT fell victim to it, and till I read your post, Don, so did I...I even saved the bookmark to my Laws and Regulations folder!
As soon as I have time after I get back from the show in CA, I'll search state and federal legislation for any citation that backs up their claim that it's illegal to discharge gray water on Champlain and I'll also take another run asking them to produce any. I prob'ly won't have any more luck than you did, though.
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So, if I plumbed my grey water discharge to exit via my engine exhaust...
Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm anxiously awaiting Peggy's ruling on Lake Champlain. I plan to pass through there this summer and would really prefer not to re-configure my plumbing systems to disable macerator discharge without impacting the pump-out fittings.
Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm anxiously awaiting Peggy's ruling on Lake Champlain. I plan to pass through there this summer and would really prefer not to re-configure my plumbing systems to disable macerator discharge without impacting the pump-out fittings.
I'm in no position to issue any "ruling" on anything...I'm just the messenger! But here's what the Code of Federal Regulations has to say:
33 CFR Chapter 26 › Subchapter III › § 1322) reads:
(1)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), after the effective date of the initial standards and regulations promulgated under this section, no State or political subdivision thereof shall adopt or enforce any statute or regulation of such State or political subdivision with respect to the design, manufacture, or installation or use of any marine sanitation device on any vessel subject to the provisions of this section.
And in Title 46 of the CFR you'll also find:
Unless permitted by the Secretary under section 4305 of this title, a State or political subdivision of a State may not establish, continue in effect, or enforce a law or regulation establishing a recreational vessel or associated equipment performance or other safety standard or imposing a requirement for associated equipment (except insofar as the State or political subdivision may, in the absence of the Secretary’s disapproval, regulate the carrying or use of marine safety articles to meet uniquely hazardous conditions or circumstances within the State) that is not identical to a regulation prescribed under section 4302 of this title.
33 CFR Chapter 26 › Subchapter III › § 1322) reads:
(1)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), after the effective date of the initial standards and regulations promulgated under this section, no State or political subdivision thereof shall adopt or enforce any statute or regulation of such State or political subdivision with respect to the design, manufacture, or installation or use of any marine sanitation device on any vessel subject to the provisions of this section.
And in Title 46 of the CFR you'll also find:
Unless permitted by the Secretary under section 4305 of this title, a State or political subdivision of a State may not establish, continue in effect, or enforce a law or regulation establishing a recreational vessel or associated equipment performance or other safety standard or imposing a requirement for associated equipment (except insofar as the State or political subdivision may, in the absence of the Secretary’s disapproval, regulate the carrying or use of marine safety articles to meet uniquely hazardous conditions or circumstances within the State) that is not identical to a regulation prescribed under section 4302 of this title.
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Alaskan Sea-Duction
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Ha wait! I have no thru-hulls on my boat! They drain down a pipe to the back, right next to the engine exhaust.....
Alaskan Sea-Duction
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I remember reading that Newport Bay (?) in California is a no dump zone both black and gray. Also somewhere, maybe the same place, when you dock or enter the bay you are required to put a color dye tablet in your holding tanks so they can spot illegal dumping.....
OP
OP
woodscrew
Senior Member
I have heard and read reliable reports of dye being used in both Long Island sound and around Newport. They dump it in the head, flush,flush, flush away and woe be unto those who discharge overboard. It would be interesting to dump dye into some random toilets in NYC and see where it comes out. Just saying'.
Al
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Thanks God to pieces!!!
all these comments in such a short period,
How fortunate that I was allocated to be born a resident of Alaska. Nuff said!!!
Al-Ketchikan
all these comments in such a short period,How fortunate that I was allocated to be born a resident of Alaska. Nuff said!!!
Al-Ketchikan
Here's what the NY Reg's say... From Dept Environmental Conservation Webpage
"New York State's No Discharge Zones
Vessel Waste No Discharge Zone (NDZ) designations are a key component of a larger strategy for protecting all coastal waters of New York State. Most of these coastal waters and connecting waterways are already designated as No Discharge Zones, where it is illegal to discharge sewage from boats and boaters are required to use appropriate pump-out facilities, available at many marinas, to dispose of sewage.
The following table lists waterbodies in New York that are currently designated as No Discharge Zones. For more information, including maps of these NDZs, visit the EPA Region 2 No Discharge Zone webpage (a direct link is in the "Links Leaving DEC's Website" section of the right-hand column of this page).
What is a No Discharge Zone?
A No Discharge Zone designation means that it is illegal for boaters to discharge on-board sewage into the designated waterbody. This includes treated sewage, as well as untreated sewage. Boaters must instead dispose of their sewage at pumpout stations.
Sewage from boats often contains harmful levels of pathogens and chemicals such as formaldehyde, phenols and chlorine, which harm water quality, pose a risk to people's health, and impair marine life and habitats.
Federal law prohibits the discharge of untreated boat sewage within most navigable waters of the U.S. To take water quality protection a step further, DEC and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) are working to prohibit sewage discharges to New York's coastal waters and navigable connecting waterways - which are not covered by the federal law - by designating them as No Discharge Zones".
I didn't find the page but I believe to be legal you have to disconnect the macerator / sewage treatment discharge hose while on Lk Champlain. I'll keep looking for that section.
I have not seen anything that refers to discharging grey water in NY unless it is a non-navigable inland (landlocked) lake... e.g. Lake George - does require all overboard discharges to be disconnected & collected for discharge ashore
"New York State's No Discharge Zones
Vessel Waste No Discharge Zone (NDZ) designations are a key component of a larger strategy for protecting all coastal waters of New York State. Most of these coastal waters and connecting waterways are already designated as No Discharge Zones, where it is illegal to discharge sewage from boats and boaters are required to use appropriate pump-out facilities, available at many marinas, to dispose of sewage.
The following table lists waterbodies in New York that are currently designated as No Discharge Zones. For more information, including maps of these NDZs, visit the EPA Region 2 No Discharge Zone webpage (a direct link is in the "Links Leaving DEC's Website" section of the right-hand column of this page).
What is a No Discharge Zone?
A No Discharge Zone designation means that it is illegal for boaters to discharge on-board sewage into the designated waterbody. This includes treated sewage, as well as untreated sewage. Boaters must instead dispose of their sewage at pumpout stations.
Sewage from boats often contains harmful levels of pathogens and chemicals such as formaldehyde, phenols and chlorine, which harm water quality, pose a risk to people's health, and impair marine life and habitats.
Federal law prohibits the discharge of untreated boat sewage within most navigable waters of the U.S. To take water quality protection a step further, DEC and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) are working to prohibit sewage discharges to New York's coastal waters and navigable connecting waterways - which are not covered by the federal law - by designating them as No Discharge Zones".
I didn't find the page but I believe to be legal you have to disconnect the macerator / sewage treatment discharge hose while on Lk Champlain. I'll keep looking for that section.
I have not seen anything that refers to discharging grey water in NY unless it is a non-navigable inland (landlocked) lake... e.g. Lake George - does require all overboard discharges to be disconnected & collected for discharge ashore
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Does anyone else remember that the only thing the OP wanted to know was whether it's legal to discharge gray water directly overboard anywhere on the ICW?
Lake Champlain Grey Water regs
I have found MANY forum posts, articles, etc citing what I consider folk lore / tall tales about Lake Champlain Grey Water Discharge.
The following are typical of any / all legal docs / references I have ever found with what I consider FACTS.
The way I read all of these the only unique reg that applies to Lk Champlain is the requirement to disconnect / plug any/all sewage discharge lines - vs simply disabling valves / switches in other NDZ waters (Hudson R, NY Canal, etc)
Some of the posts & brochures (like the one ref in post #5 & 8) seem to imply that you can't discharge anything including grey water - I find no refernce to grey water in any of the regulations cited - only to sewage (black water)
Here are a few legal references re: NY & VT re: marine discharges
EPA Listing of NDZ's by State (includes individual state detail links)
NYS details for MSD's
VT details for MSD's
From NYS Boating reg's
"SL 7. Marine Sanitation Devices (MSDs)
The MSD requirements on New York State waters are dictated by both federal and state law, depending on where the vessel is operated. On the state's land-locked lakes, all marine sewage must be kept aboard the vessel in a Type III MSD (holding tank) and pumped ashore at a marine pumpout facility. No sewage discharges are allowed on any land-locked lake located completely within New York’s borders.
On Canandaigua, Skaneateles, Greenwood (Orange County) Lakes, and Lake George, any vessel equipped with a toilet, sink, tub, etc., which results in the drainage of wastewater must have all such material drain into a holding tank so that it may be pumped ashore at a marine pumpout facility. Overboard lines from these systems must either be sealed or removed.
Vessels operating on the Great Lakes, State Canals, Hudson River, Long Island Sound, or on tidal waters may discharge sewage overboard only after it has been treated in a USCGcertified Type I or II MSD.
Type I MSDs may not be used on vessels greater than 65 feet.
When operating on Lake Champlain, boaters must have their MSD rendered inoperable and all overboard lines disconnected and plugged."
My apologies for continuing the thread drift - which looking back started as early as Post #2
-
I have found MANY forum posts, articles, etc citing what I consider folk lore / tall tales about Lake Champlain Grey Water Discharge.
The following are typical of any / all legal docs / references I have ever found with what I consider FACTS.
The way I read all of these the only unique reg that applies to Lk Champlain is the requirement to disconnect / plug any/all sewage discharge lines - vs simply disabling valves / switches in other NDZ waters (Hudson R, NY Canal, etc)
Some of the posts & brochures (like the one ref in post #5 & 8) seem to imply that you can't discharge anything including grey water - I find no refernce to grey water in any of the regulations cited - only to sewage (black water)
Here are a few legal references re: NY & VT re: marine discharges
EPA Listing of NDZ's by State (includes individual state detail links)
NYS details for MSD's
VT details for MSD's
From NYS Boating reg's
"SL 7. Marine Sanitation Devices (MSDs)
The MSD requirements on New York State waters are dictated by both federal and state law, depending on where the vessel is operated. On the state's land-locked lakes, all marine sewage must be kept aboard the vessel in a Type III MSD (holding tank) and pumped ashore at a marine pumpout facility. No sewage discharges are allowed on any land-locked lake located completely within New York’s borders.
On Canandaigua, Skaneateles, Greenwood (Orange County) Lakes, and Lake George, any vessel equipped with a toilet, sink, tub, etc., which results in the drainage of wastewater must have all such material drain into a holding tank so that it may be pumped ashore at a marine pumpout facility. Overboard lines from these systems must either be sealed or removed.
Vessels operating on the Great Lakes, State Canals, Hudson River, Long Island Sound, or on tidal waters may discharge sewage overboard only after it has been treated in a USCGcertified Type I or II MSD.
Type I MSDs may not be used on vessels greater than 65 feet.
When operating on Lake Champlain, boaters must have their MSD rendered inoperable and all overboard lines disconnected and plugged."
My apologies for continuing the thread drift - which looking back started as early as Post #2
-
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RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Ms. HM. You've been a contributing member of TF since 2009 and you have to ask THAT question? Must be a vintage year you're enjoying...
Ms. HM. You've been a contributing member of TF since 2009 and you have to ask THAT question? Must be a vintage year you're enjoying...
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