Greetings!!

[bobfnbw]

New member would like to introduce myself.Name is bob, live in Corpus Christi, Texas. Currently have a 40 foot Endeavour Sloop. Been a sailor for a long time and wanted to retire onto our boat and cruise till I got tired of it. But recently started getting interested in Trawlers and power boats. I guess it first started when Steve Dashew started building windhorse. At first I could not understand why a life long sailor wanted power. But the more I looked into it the more*intrigued*I became. Now as I pass the 52nd year of life, and the body's aches come on more and more, the idea of crossing oceans in a sailboat is less*appealing, while the thought of a trawler is more and more.
I have many questions though. And a long time frame till I plan on our purchase.
Instead of getting a boat now, I will wait till retirement. The price of ownership is high, and I work a lot..... so no time. The sailboat is going away soon. So for now it is planning stages only.


I would like a traditional trawler type, but feel that it is probably more boat than I would need or want. While the*thought*of crossing the*Atlantic*under power ( I have read voyaging under power, the third edition ) is appealing, the truth is we probably would stay close to the land. But the*Caribbean, the northwest passage, going up and down the east coast both off shore and inshore, Panama, and places with in reach of the range of the boat, would be on my short list. If I could go to Europe, I guess I would put it on a transport, then go from there. So while blue water is necessary, 2500 miles of it is not.


Currently my short list of boats are the Defever 44 and 49. Either would do from what I can tell, but have never set foot on one. Fiberglass is my first choice, yet a wood hull is not out of the picture. Coming from a sail background, and recently doing a lot of work on it, including rebuilding the*Perkins*4-108,*rewiring*both 12v and 110 volt systems including*shore power, inverter, batteries systems, new ac units and a lot more, I look at systems in the sail way, which I understand is a bit different than power. So a lot of my questions will be system oriented.


I appreciate having a place like this to learn from.
Bob

 

[timjet]

I too sold my sailboat recently and moved to a power boat. There are many types available and you will get plently of responses. Take your time looking but be aware that there has been no better time to buy. I'm very close to retirement and decided to take this plunge before retirement concerned that it may be too expensive afterwards.
Enjoy the ride and good luck.

Tim

 

[Baker]

Welcome aboard!!! Hard to go wrong with the DeFever 44/49. Even brand new they are a great value and they hold that value. They are a lot of boat for the money. Anyway, good luck in your planning and search!!!

 

[AllanY]

Welcome Bob

Just a thought!!!
If you buy your trawler prior to retirement then you can do any work on it whilst you are working and have income coming in and by the time you retire all the expensive work should be completed and it is then time to sit back and enjoy

Allan

 

[FF]

The vhard part is a boat able to go the distance , all uphill up current frequently 25K of breeze to go from Panama to Seattle.

Most detour a thousand miles towards Hawaii , which makes for a boat with long legs necessary.

Perhaps if you bought a Left coast boat your cruising would require less hassles?

 

[bobfnbw]

Thanks all for the welcome.
FF, that is a consideration. Our first boat, a nor'sea 27 sail, was purchased in Anacortes, Wa and now my wife says all boats we buy must be from Washington! (we used to live in Seattle for a while so we miss it)

Purchasing it prior to retirement is not something I would consider now. With no time and little spare cash for it, it would just sit, and we all know what happens to boats when they sit.
I will be retireing a few years before my wife (snagged me a younger gal I did) so I will have a few years once I am fully available to do any upgrades. Also, my wife is a Nurse teacher, and will be able, we hope to work from anywhere via online teaching around this time.
Of course the best laid plans of mice and men.....
One never knows.
I figure as time moves on, there will be more and more boats available in the market, and prices are pretty sure to drop, considering that price is less as supply goes up.

The Defever is the current boat I am looking into, but will research many over the years. I plan on chartering a few as well to get a better feel for different styles.
Bob

 

[Marin]

Everybody's different and has different circumstances, financial and otherwise. But if I had a dollar for every person I've met who said, "We're going to do that (travel, boating, flying, RVing, you name it) as soon as I retire," and then when they do retire they can't do any of it for health or other reasons, I'd be able to get rid of this stupid Grand Banks and buy a Fleming.

My wife and I a long time ago made the decision to do the things we dreamed of doing (flying floatplanes in SE Alaska, running canal boats in England, buying the GB, etc.) as soon as we could scrape up the money to do them. Otherwise, we feared, we'd end up like so many other people with unfulfilled dreams because circumstances later in life made them impossible to do.

Obviously one doesn't want to take on a financial burden that risks making them live in a box under the freeway the rest of their lives. But we believe that if there is any way to make a dream work, do it now, not later. Because later might not ever come, or when it does, it may prohibit following the dream and disappointment is the result.

I've seen dozens of posts on the T&T list over the years from people who finally, after retirement, were able to buy the boat they wanted and move aboard to live, and then a few months later they write how the boat is for sale because one of the other of them had developed health or mobility problems that made the boat impractical or impossible. If only we'd done it five, ten, fifteen, years ago, they all said.

I have a number of years to go before I retire, but we bought the GB 12 years ago because we didn't want to risk not being able to have the experience later.* Despite working a full-time schedule of 12 or more hours a day and traveling for weeks at a time all over the planet, we could probably count the number of weekends we've missed going up and staying on the boat year round, if not actually taking it out, on two hands.* The boat is a huge part of our lives.* We like working on it, we like being on it, and of course when schedules and the weather align, we love taking it out.* It'd be great to be retired and be able to take care of the exterior teak the way it should be taken care of instead of barely keeping up with on weekends, but we wouldn't have traded the last 12 years of having it for anything.* When (and if) I retire, I'll have more time to work on the cosmetics but until then, we could not be enjoying the boat more than we are.

We'd rather lie drooling in the nursing home remembering the floatplane flights and canal trips and cruises into northern BC rather than lie drooling in the nursing home wishing we'd done all these things.* Our "rule to live by" is never put off to tomorrow what you can enjoy doing today.


Something to consider.......

-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 18th of May 2010 01:46:07 PM

 

[Forkliftt]

Well said. The older I get the more it seems that my health, her health, parents health, etc. need to be considered. We have taken some great trips already and plan to continue as long as possible. But I am thankful and appreciate every one.

 

[Arctic Traveller]

Hi Bob,* The Defever 49 was our personal choice, and we feel it was a great one.* We live aboard between charters, and find it to be very comfortable and econimical.* There are several different models out there, each with good features, and some not so good features.* There are also some common problems with many boats built in Taiwan that a good surveyor should be aware of and look for.* Enjoy the process of finding the perfect boat for you, but be realistic about what you plan to use it for so you don't spend more money than needed, but still have a capable boat.** .............Arctic Traveller

 

[bobfnbw]

Arctic traveler thanks for that. I know a bit about the Taiwan boats having done many looking and a few surveys on them. Our last 2 sailboats were both american built. Both good boats, but more expensive I believe when purchased than a similar Taiwan boat.


As far as go now, vs never go idea. I have tried that and life just gets in the way. I am a big believer in if its meant to be it will be. If its not then so be it. So while I respect your lifestyle, I have to put it off for a while, and I am ok with it. Doesn't mean I like it, lol.. but I am ok with it.

Purchased the present boat thinking that it would be a 10 year project boat, time on it during the year when I can, etc. But life just gets in the way. So I will wait.

Bob

 

[Marin]

bobfnbw wrote:

As far as go now, vs never go idea. I have tried that and life just gets in the way.

Of course that depends on if you define "life" as including boating or not

*

 

[Peter B]

Like Marin says Bob - don't wait too long. Like my case, eg, I doubt I'll be able to afford to keep my boat once I retire, so I've followed the same philosophy as Marin. I might not get out as much as I'd like, but I do as much as I can, when I can, and just thinking about it, or working on her when I can't go out, keeps me going. When I actually retire - well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. As a GP, I've had too many patients drop dead before they got to retire to ever advise anyone to wait till then to do something they really want to do. Yuh don't want to die wonderin'.....and as Benn of 'Tidahapa' says, "you're a long time lookin' at the lid".

 

[bobfnbw]

Peter, just curious why you wouldn't' keep your boat after retirement....

The way I see it, when I retire my expertnesses will go way down. So much so that I plan to live on my and my wifes Social Security for most things.
Now originally I have planned to do it on a sailboat but figure a trawler will cost more month to month, but over a 10 year period, not so much I think. Depends on how much fuel we would use, which is directly related to how many miles we travel. We of course plan to sell the house and use the money to buy the boat. Costs will go way down, as no more property tax, and no more insurance. We would self insure except for liability. Marina's would be a luxury item once in a while. Most of our time would be traveling and anchored out, or on a mooring somewhere.
Food costs should stay similar, entertainment probably a bit higher, no cars, so now car insurance, or payments or service or fuel, would rent several times a year I would think.

Originally we would have traveled far off the beaten path with a sailboat, but with a trawler, not as far.
I expect to retire at 62 1/2 and don't expect more than 8-10 years of it. So I plan accordingly.

Believe me, I know a lot about life and death. See it every day in my job. Its a risk, but a calculated one, that I am willing to take.
Not everyone can or should. But I am in my highest earning years now, with 2 kids to put thru school. Did the home school thing for a while, so I have experience there as well.

 

[Peter B]

Bob asked...."Peter, just curious why you wouldn't' keep your boat after retirement...."

Simple 'rithmetic Bob. My wife does/would not want to live aboard - not now - not when we retire, and to be fair...I'm not sure I could condense down that much either, and without selling the home, there would be no other way. Income after I retire will drop hugely - boats are expensive wee beasties to upkeep. Unexpected breakdowns are always expensive. Able to be coped with when earning, but my pension fund would simply not be sufficient. So, realistically, unless I win a big lottery......?

 

[FF]

boats are expensive wee beasties to upkeep.

Should read, SOME "boats are expensive wee beasties to upkeep".

 

[Peter B]

C'mon FF you're being pedantic. Sure a tinny is cheap to keep, but the type of craft this forum is all about are all quite expensive to upkeep, when one includes the mooring, registration, insurance, regular anti-fouling, maintenance, repairs/replacements, instrument upgrades, etc, etc. And yes, like others have said, the actual fuel burned is probably the least of ones worries. Someone else posted it runs out at about 10% of purchase price, and that's probably correct, more or less, and that's not counting any payments if it is not unencumbered. I bought mine for cash, but still find it expensive to own. For now while earning fine - after retirement.....not sure, but not confident. If one has a valuable business to sell to establish a good retirement fund....or high paid salaried professional with excellent super scheme, maybe different story. Me....not so lucky.

 

[reefdrifter]

Hi, Bob. Bob here! Welcome to the forum. You'll find some great information here. My wife, Arlene, and I are also new to trawlers, as we just purchased and are in the process of refurbishing our "new" 1983 Marine Trader 34 foot. Our maiden voyage was yesterday. All went well. Glad to have you here.* The economy threw us head first into "retirement", so we bought this boat and are having fun with it.

-- Edited by reefdrifter on Sunday 23rd of May 2010 09:44:44 AM

 

[FF]

Sure a SIMPLE boat is cheap to keep, but the type of craft this forum is all about are all quite expensive to upkeep,

when one includes the mooring, Mooring out usually under $100 a nonth,

registration, , Antique boat in FL about $5.00 a year,

insurance, Liability only , cheap,

regular anti-fouling, 3 gallons of paint every 3 years , adverage $10. per month

maintenance, repairs/replacements, PM and USE keeps these to a minimum,

instrument upgrades, etc, etc,,, todays electric toy wonders are passe in 3 weeks.

Save your cash and upgrade your paper charts

 

[bobfnbw]

reefdrifter wrote:

Hi, Bob. Bob here! Welcome to the forum. You'll find some great information here. My wife, Arlene, and I are also new to trawlers, as we just purchased and are in the process of refurbishing our "new" 1983 Marine Trader 34 foot. Our maiden voyage was yesterday. All went well. Glad to have you here.* The economy threw us head first into "retirement", so we bought this boat and are having fun with it.

-- Edited by reefdrifter on Sunday 23rd of May 2010 09:44:44 AM

Thanks Reefdrifter and congratulations on your boat. What type of work were you in that thu u into retirement now?What are you plans now that you are in "retirement"?


Peter, unless one is willing/able to move aboard full time when retired, I agree that boating is*prohibitively*expensive. But then the argument could be made that it is that way at any time either working or not, and that perhaps you should think of getting rid of her and just chartering once a year. It would be less expensive in the long run. I found out the hard way that it is to expensive for us to be part time boaters. It is either all or nothing imo.


For me it would be like this (and of course no plan survives the first battle so to speak)


Cost of boat, paid in cash from sale of house.
Cost of upgrades to last 5 years or so from sale of home.
Cost of insurance*negligible, only liability, which for our 40 foot sailboat is ~300/yr.
Cost of Maintenance about the same probably as our house, which here on the gulf coast is high. Roughly 5000-12000 year. But it is considered a even even thing, provided I buy the right boat, NOT a fixer upper.
Cost*of living, less than now. With no kids, no cars, insurance, high utility bills, etc.
Living in a marina is out for various reasons, for one I don't want to live that way, and 2 it is*hugely*expensive in parts of the country.
But of course the real problem for many of us guys are the lack of interest in our spouses. A day or week trip is one thing to them, but 5 years or more? Most say no.
That is exactly the reason I am going from sail to power one day.
Sail boats heel. Its uncomfortable and dangerous in some ways. Trawlers don't.
Sail boats rely on wind, which is at best finicky which means longer passages and no schedule is possible. A bummer when the kids and their family come along and have to get back to the "real" world in a week or *two.
Sailboats are small inside, cramped with*limited*headroom in smaller boat, and very limited access to high priority items like engines, rudder gear, thru hulls, generators, batteries, etc.
The thing is that boating in itself IS expensive.
But it can be done for the same or less than one is living now, but careful choices have to be made. And*regardless*of what some say, the cost of fuel has to be a issue, unless you never go anywhere. And where is the fun in that ? Might as well get a house boat. Fuel prices only will go up over the next 10-20 years (which is the time frame that I am interested *in, and it can be argued that many boats will sell for a song then as no one will be able to afford moving them. Sorta like some Big suv's last year or two.


When that happens a lot of retires will be quite unhappy.
Me included.
Bob



*

 

[Peter B]

Well put Bob, and if I had a wife who was as into boating as I am, it could be worked out that way, but realistically not, so I'm getting in as much as I can now....and hoping, as 'Dickens' senior often said, "something will turn up".
As to FF's costings - not sure what planet he lives on. For a start we have to have $10 million in public liability on top of the boat cover, so insurance is about $900 per yr just for my old thing. Things must be very different over there. Traval lift just in and out adds up to more than his $10 a month over 3 yrs - leave aside the actual cost of the doing of the antifouling and materials. I could go on, but won't......

 

[Marin]

Peter B wrote:

As to FF's costings - not sure what planet he lives on. For a start we have to have $10 million in public liability on top of the boat cover, so insurance is about $900 per yr just for my old thing. Things must be very different over there. Traval lift just in and out adds up to more than his $10 a month over 3 yrs

Our insurance cost (yacht policy through a broker) is about US$ 1,200*a year which in talking to friends who have similar types of boats seems pretty average.* We have to haul out every two years or so for bottom prep and paint, so if one figures that cost on a monthly basis for the two years, that comes out to about $40 a month, assuming we don't find anything mechanically wrong when we have the boat out of the water.

*

 

[Tidahapah]

Your right Peter it can be expensive, it's all about priorities. That's why I have a boat and my missus has a house in Brisbane.
She loves to cruise but hates living on the boat when not going anywhere.
So I get to do all the work and maintenance plus go visit to do the manual chores at the house, grass cutting etc.
Ya just gotta luv it. Being a timber boat I have to haul out at least every 12 months just to keep the worms at bay.
It's all about comprise just to keep everyone happy.
Benn

 

[FF]

Here in the US , both the yards in CT and FL are priced about the same, $3.00 per ft for a short haul , blocked .


Extra buck a foot for a power wash , I usually pay for it then I do it , as the bottom comes out ready for paint.

Good paint (we use Micron) about $ 120 a gallon , roller is cheap, masking tape not a killer.

Extra day and paint if you like a boot stripe of a contrasting color.

In CT we haul winters so the paint is usually done with spring launch , so no extra haul costs.

In FL were in Fresh water hurricane hole , so paint goes almost "forever" , and any slime leaves after a day or two in the Gulf.

Cost of Maintenance about the same probably as our house, which here on the gulf coast is high. Roughly 5000-12000 year.

I dont know how one can spend $12,000 a year on simple maint , our 2300 sq ft* metal roof only cost $4000 in FL..

Most maint is grunt work, remove a rotten item , reseal it , stick in a new HW heater , $300 for a great one.

Where IS this money going?






FF

-- Edited by FF on Tuesday 25th of May 2010 03:50:05 AM

 

[artwork]

I'm sure FF will respond shortly, but I'll chime in*as a third party advocate. (I've been to his planet).

I*first met*FF in my back yard- the Great Lakes- actually the Canadian side of the GL- about 300 miles from my home and 2500 miles from his. That was a three week cruise for me and several months for FF.*The next winter, I visited FF's home in Florida, and*I can say*he and his wife*are a unique couple. Both have varied interests but travel is a primary. They also 'motorhome' around the country. Their boat, a converted US Navy Launch with a single DD6-71,*is simple but more than adequate for coastal cruising.*The onboard systems are kept basic which*equates to low maintenance costs, done 100% by himself, dockage is in front of his home. The elaborate electronics and other gadgets, that so many of us desire today are not necessary. FF navigates the way I did 35 years ago, but that does not keep him close to home. So if we want to boat into*our retirenment years, perhaps we need to re-define our*'boating'. Not necessarily a tin pram, but*return to some 'basics', and more self reliance.*If we are boaters, FF*may be*a mariner. I think his persona could be 'photoshopped' aboard a fishing schooner 150 years ago and not be detected by the crew.

Come to think of it - perhaps it's not another planet, just a time-warp.

BTW - FF, that will be $5 for the character reference. please mail to. . . . .*
lol

OOps, I see now that FF responded - sorry about the missed timing

-- Edited by artwork on Tuesday 25th of May 2010 06:15:06 AM

-- Edited by artwork on Tuesday 25th of May 2010 06:15:22 AM

 

[FF]

"FF, that will be $5 for the character reference. please mail to. . . . ."

There goes the cruising cash!

Running inshore ( under 100 mi out) and cruising the AICW the hand held GPS is a usefull toy, at $150 , its easier than knocking a hole in the bottom for speed reading , and with a map built in (it was $150!) planning on getting to a restricted bridge (when sailing) is nice.

Motoring in fog it finds the buoys .

MY point is that the trip is far more enjoyable with out being tied to a huge monitoring and maint budget.

Sure we check the oil on each shutdown , and change it every 100 , but with KISS , that's about it!

Being on a budget does not require cruising limits , only junk aboard limits.

 

[bobfnbw]

FF wrote:


Cost of Maintenance about the same probably as our house, which here on the gulf coast is high. Roughly 5000-12000 year.

I dont know how one can spend $12,000 a year on simple maint , our 2300 sq ft* metal roof only cost $4000 in FL..

Where IS this money going?
FF

FF thats a good question. Let me try to answer it.

That amount is guestimated by the fact that the boat would be a 25 year old fiberglass trawler, 44-50 LOA when purchased in good condition. It factors in a whole lot more than just simple maintiance that you speak of. Like replacing or repairing during the time of ownership (say 10 years) of the batteries, refrigeration, pumps, air conditioners, cushions, canvas, tender and outboard, engines, electronics, repainting not only the underwater but above water. And at the end of it all, putting money into it to get it to a*sell-able*condition. I figure a minimum of 50000 and a max of 100,000 or so. Could be more. Cost per year is 5-10K or 400-800 per month. This would be for a boat that would go at least 5000 miles a year I figure.

Now before you say, "you don't need this or that, or a boat that big or stuff like that. Belive me when I say that I am pretty sure of what I will want out of the boat, and that is a long water line and large tankage. So that means larger boats that can go off shore. Boats like that cost money. Money to buy, money to maintain, and occasionally, a boat load of money to fix like when it gets hit by lightening, or the engines crap out. New engines cost a lot, as do rebuilding them. I spent over 50K in the last 2 years on my Endeavour after taking on a lot of water and putting the keel on the bottom, so a lot of work was needed to fix her. Insurance *covered a lot of it, but I paid a lot out of pocket. And next time I will be self insured. So I have to be able to cover stuff*like*that.

So that is the reason for those numbers. Could be less, might be more.

Bob

 

[FF]

Like replacing or repairing during the time of ownership (say 10 years) of the batteries, refrigeration, pumps, air conditioners, cushions, canvas, tender and outboard, engines, electronics, repainting not only the underwater but above water. And at the end of it all, putting money into it to get it to a sell-able condition

Batteries are a cost when the batts abilities to discharge & recharge are USED , so the batts might be an expense while cruising , dockside with a modern charger they last a long time.

Refrigeration , depends , a house fridge sent crappy inverter juice will have a shorter life than stuck in a house , although I have to observe our Propane unit is , at a guess 45 years old.

Most boats don't leak enough to actually wear out pumps , they die from crappy wiring and poor voltage , PM.

Again I have seen and re installed 30 year old Cruise Airs , that worked fine.

Canvas does die just being in sun shine , but there is little need for it to be in place 24/7/365, IF the canvas dies replace it with easily removable stuff , and set it as required.

WE have a 40 year old Grumman aluminum dink that rows with 1 or 2 oarsmen in a good chop, ( holds 4 or 5 depending on sea state and sails like a demon .

They are so hard to find it is chained , even when aboard.

Condom boats only last a short while and will frequently loose the outboard as they sink astern.

Electronics add ZERO to any boats resale , as there dated the day you purchase them.
Have fun with the toys , but take them to the next boat wity you ,no one will pay you for them.

Topside paint is best done the month before you dump the boat , never during a cruise for obvious reasons.

Most larger boat engines I am familiar with do not get "replaced".
A simple in frame (up to 3 times) , On a DD 6-71 its $900 to $1100 worth of parts, and a bunch of work.

But REPLACE ?, only after a catastropic failure of some sort.

Murphy Co sells mechanical gauges that are settable , so the watch stander need not understand what to monitor on the engine offshore , the Murphy set will secure it for you.

Not saying it is not common to dump major cash into a boat , but THAT ,
spending for just the next few desirements seems to abort more cruises than lack of toys.

You havent mentioned ground tackle and if you cruise you WILL loose gear at times.

BIG , Used as spares works for me,