Head Problems ... HELP!!!!

[Tony B]

Here is the situation:

When offshore last, the macerator quit working. I hear the motor running but nothing is going anywhere.

We switched the potty to direct overboard when out there and I think it was still going in the tank but no way of knowing.

When we got back to the dock, we have a dockside pumpout barge come by and empty the tank for us. Well.....it starts to suck for about 3 to 5 seconds and then quits. It sounds like air or something is in a line or something but I dont know what is wrong.

Attached is a sketch I made of the system from what*I could get my wife to describe over the phone. I'm not sure if this sketch is accurate and I wont know till I get home.

All I know is that when I get home I got to put up with a lot of s**t.

Thanks in advance.

 

[rwidman]

If the tank vent is clogged, you won't be able to empty the tank. Air must be able to get in to replace the sewage that's being pumped out, either by the macerator or dockside pumpout system. Insects like to make nests in the vent fittings. If you have a filter in the vent line, it could be clogged.

Your drawing shows a bladder tank. Are you sure about this? A bladder tank shouldn't need a vent. It gets bigger when filled and smaller when emptied (sort of).

 

[Tony B]

Yes it is a bladder tank, that is why I didn't consider it as the problem.

 

[Delfin]

Nauta bladder tanks for waste do have a vent line, so I'm with Ron that this must be clogged.*

*

 

[Tony B]

I have a vent line. I will check it when I get home.

 

[Marin]

Another possibility is if the pickup tube in a holding tank is metal, the contents of the tank will eventually corrode it to the point where it starts to develop holes at which point the macerator pump or a dockside pumpout system won't be able to pull out any contents below the level of the uppermost hole in the tube. However I don't know if bladder tanks use any sort of pickup tube or not. If they don't and simply empty from the lowest point with the bladder collapsing down as the contents leave then a holed or cracked pickup tube will not be a problem for you. And if your bladder does use a pickup tube but it's plastic then the likelihood of this problem occurring is remote unless the plastic tube cracks somehow.

 

[HeadMistress]

Sounds to me like you have a whole flock of separate problems--a macerator pump that needs a new impeller--or, if it didn't before, does now as a result of being run dry....a y-valve that may or may NOT be working...and a clogged tank discharge. If your tank were a rigid tank, a clogged vent would be #1 on my list of suspects...but that shouldn't prevent a bladder from being pumped out...the pumpout would simply suck in the tank walls--which although that has a nasty tendency to crack rigid tanks, doesn't usually damage a bladder. So I'm guessing that somebody has managed to flush something they shouldn't have that's made it all the way into the tank and has blocked the discharge...a wet wipe, condom or--if you've had any female guests aboard who are still pre-menopausal--a tampon are the most common culprits.

Or, if you've never flushed out the tank to get rid of the sludge, it could be just be a buildup of sludge, salt, etc that's created a blockage.


Btw...unvented bladders are functional, and fine for water holding. However, CG regs require that ALL waste tanks, including bladders, be vented to the outside of the boat because methane is flammable.

 

[Tony B]

Thanks Peggy and all.

My biggest fear is that I have a blocked discharge. If I do, are their any solutions to this problem other than replace everything?

 

[Marin]

From your diagram you have a deck pumpout fitting. So I suppose one thing you could try is set the Y-valve to overboard discharge to prevent anything from the holding tank getting pushed back into the toilet and send a blast of water from a hose through the pumpout fitting to see if it will clear any blockage that might be in the discharge hose and pickup tube (if there is one). Of course even if this works and the root cause of the problem is a "foreign object" as Peggie described, the object will still be in the tank and could get sucked up and jammed again.

You might be able to use the same reverse water shot technique to make sure the vent line is clear, too.

You might also be able to use a plumber's snake if it will feed through the deck fitting down to the tank. I have never heard if a plumber's snake is a viable means of clearing holding tank lines or if it would be potentially damaging. My guess is that Peggie probably knows, however.

 

[HeadMistress]

A snake might work, but only if it's a fairly straight shot to the tank with no 90s. I think a* pressure washer down the pumpout fitting would prob'ly have a better chance of removing a clog. If it's just sludge, that'll break it up...if it's a "foreign object," it'll have to be removed...the only question is when--while the tank is full of waste, or after you've managed to dislodge it so you can pump out and then very thoroughly flush out the tank.
You might be able to use the same reverse water shot technique to make sure the vent line is clear, too.
If your vent thru-hull won't allow this, replace the thru-hull with one that does...'cuz that's basic "holding tank PREVENTIVE maintenance 101"...back flush the vent line every time you wash the boat and/or pump out to keep the vent clear.
And so is flushing out the tank to remove any sludge 2-3 x season, and especially in preparation for winter or other extended layup.

 

[markpierce]

The simple solution keeps things less complicated.* Thank you, no moving parts except for the lid in my last multi-day boating adventure (excluding cruise ships).* Here, Dave (a Canadian, as I recall, eh) and I carry the honey pot containing about 48 person-days of poo.* Heavy!

(San Juan River, Mexican Hat, Utah, Spring 2010)

 

[Tony B]

PROBLEM SOLVED !!!!!

It turns out that the problem was with the vent line after all, but not quite what you would suspect.

Recap: I used the macerator offshore and it was sucking air and subsequently fried itself. I then put my system on direct overboard discharge and this didn't work because I could see the bladder the next day was inflated. Sooooooooo, when I got back to my slip*I hired the local waste pump-out people that we normally use and they were sucking air also and couldn't pump it out. This led me to believe that my entire system including the "Y" Valve was plugged.

Here is what happened: The vent line sagged below the fluids level. The fluids entered the vent line. With no place to escape, the gases inflated the bladder. This put the waste outlet line high and dry so*everything we tried was sucking air/gas. I called the waste pump-out people again and asked for a service man. At first, he too did not consider the vent line because of the mind-set that bladder tanks dont need a vent line. The pump-out barge came and we both were standing on the bladder trying to force the 'stuff' out and it worked. Then for some reason he looked at the vent line and tugged up on it and that was the Eurika moment. What led me to believe that my "Y" Valve was not working was because the tank*appeared to be*filling up with waste when in effect, what actually happened was the trapped gases were expanding and that was what inflated the bladder.

If I had listened to you guys in the first place, I would have saved myself a $120 service call and $30 for the additional pump-out charge.

Thanks again for all of your help and that ain't no s**t.

*

*

 

[HopCar]

I can see how a blocked vent would allow gas to build up in the tank. I also understand now why a bladder tank holding sewage would need a vent and a water tank wouldn't. But why didn't the gas escape when you opened the deck fitting to pump it out?

 

[Tony B]

HopCar wrote:
I can see how a blocked vent would allow gas to build up in the tank. I also understand now why a bladder tank holding sewage would need a vent and a water tank wouldn't. But why didn't the gas escape when you opened the deck fitting to pump it out?

*I donno. I'm sure most did but I guess it left the blader in the inflated position. When the pump-out barge comes, they unscrew and hook up in a matter of seconds. I dunno. Can not explain. We filled the empty tank with water and then pumped again and all went well. Another scientific wonder was when the service man put the vent hose (after we pulled it looose) to his mouth and blew through it. THIS tripped me out.

 

[HeadMistress]

Tony, when if ever have you flushed out your tank? Do you backflush the vent line when you wash the boat? Or is a visit from the pumpout barge the only "maintenance" your tank has ever had?

I'd bet real money that your answers are No, no, and yes. And I'd also bet real money that your tank is--or was (filling it with water may have at least partially solved it)--so full of sludge that not only your vent, but also the tank discharge fitting, was blocked.

That's only explanation for why the pumpout couldn't just collapse the tank to pump it out....and the only possible reason why there wasn't a major geyser when you opened the deck pumpout was because gasses were able to escape through the toilet, depressurizing the tank.

If you want to avoid these problems in the future, ya GOTTA maintain the tank!

 

[HopCar]

Tony, The guy who blew in the vent line, do you think he kisses his wife when he gets home?
It sounds like Peggy has solved the mystery.

 

[Tony B]

"Tony, The guy who blew in the vent line, do you think he kisses his wife when he gets home?"

Only when she gets s**t faced. After he blew into the vent line, he gagged and coughed for an instant. It was one of those rare moments when I was totally speechless. I was truly suffering from shock and awe.

 

[Peter B]

Yes, there is a better way. I have a bladder holding tank, and when the vent line gets plugged, which does happen from time to time, indicated by it taking on a blown up look when I know it's not full, I clear the line by using an old dinghy pump with a reducing nozzle the will just fit into the thru-hull, and just give it a tap on the pump with my foot. This is always followed by a gurgling sound, and an atrocious smell for a few minutes, so there is NO WAY I would ever put my mouth to it.....

 

[FF]

"Tony, The guy who blew in the vent line, do you think he kisses his wife when he gets home?"

And he VOTES!

 

[HeadMistress]

Peter, why not just back flush the vent every time you wash the boat...thus PREVENTING a blockage instead of having to cure one?

 

[Marin]

Peggie--- Since you are monitoring this discussion, is there a reason you can think of not to use a pressure washer on the inside of a one-piece molded plastic waste tank (25 gallons) to clean and break up sludge and whatnot? The nozzle wand could be inserted through the vent line fitting and then turned in all directions to clean out the inside of the tank. As we did this and the tank filled with water we would periodically pump the tank out with the portable dock pumpout unit. I can't think of a reason why the pressure spray would damage the tank but this is not my subject of expertise. Thanks,

 

[Moonstruck]

Several years ago I was helping a friend take delivery on a new Heritage East trawler in Clearwater, Fl.* We were staying on the boat while installing electronics.* The heads seemed to just not flush.* The owner called the dealer.* He came down to check it out.* He found that dirt dauber wasps had filled the vent with mud. We were inside working on the boat when we heard the holding tank make an oil canning kind of noise.* We looked out.* The dealer had been digging in the vent with a pocket knife.* When he freed it their was a whoosh of foul air that over powered him.* He wound up down on the dock.* The tank had been distended from a pressure build up from gases as well as pumping more in.* The rest of the mud and no telling what else just enveloped the poor guy.* He said that it was the worst experience of his life.

 

[Steve]

The last time I was at a marina with pumpout in the slip I pumped out as usual then brought a water hose from the "city water" faucet on the dock down to the holding tank I took off the inspection cover plate, about 6" dia, and using a garden type nozzle sprayed all over the inside of the tank. Just about all of the crud stuck on the walls and the bottom of the tank broke up, once I had about 10 gallons in the 45 gal tank I pumped out again. I plan to do this a couple of times a year. It probably willl not work out well at a busy pumpout station but fine in the slip.
Steve W.

 

[FF]

For folks that cant get a hose into the waste tank the RV solution might work.

Dump 10- 20 pounds of ice cubes into the tank and go for a ride.

Might be harder dropping them down a boats 1 1/2 suction hose that thru the 3 or 4 inch opening of an RV toilet, but it might be worth a try.

 

[HeadMistress]

is there a reason you can think of not to use a pressure washer on the inside of a one-piece molded plastic waste tank (25 gallons) to clean and break up sludge and whatnot? The nozzle wand could be inserted through the vent line fitting and then turned in all directions to clean out the inside of the tank.

*

Aside from the fact that it won't work unless you spend half a day and several hundred gallons of water doing it, no reason at all you can't do it that way.

Tanks should be flushed at least 2-3 x/season--and especially in preparation for winter or other extended layup--to remove any sludge.* And if you do it that often, there won't be any need to "break it up," it'll still be soft mud.

However, the water needs to go into the tank via pumpout fitting 'cuz that sends it into the tank at the bottom to stir up any sludge and hold it in suspension so it can be pumped out. It's not necessary to fill the tank, just add enough water to cover the bottom to a depth of a few inches...pump that out. Repeat, repeat, repeat...till you're pumping only clean water.* Then, if you have an overboard discharge pump, put some water in the tank one more time and turn on the pump to rinse it and that plumbing.* Once a year, put a gallon of LIQUID (NOT powder) detergent into the tank--you can flush that down the toilet. Fill the tank with clean fresh water this time...let it soak a day or two...pump it out, rinse it out.

Or, if you have a washdown pump and can go out beyond the "3 mile limit," there's an easier way:* the water doesn't have to be FRESH water, so use the washdown pump to put the water into the tank via the pumpout fitting...when there's about 6" in the tank, turn on the overboard discharge pump and let it run while you continue to add water to the tank.*

However, the most important thing is, do NOT allow the vent to become blocked! Backflush it EVERY time you pump out and or wash the boat. If your vent thru-hull doesn't allow it, replace it with one that does. If there's a filter in the line, remove it...filters cannot get wet.* So you'll have make the necessary mods to the tank venting to create the aerobic environment necessary to prevent odor, eliminating the need for a filter...'cuz not only do they cost a ridiculous amount, they only treat the symptom...they don't cure the problem. Instead they actually contribute to it!

And there's more good reason to keep a tank aerobic than just odor prevention. When organic matter breaks down AEROBICALLY (with oxygen), it converts to CO2, which is odorless.* But when it breaks down ANEROBICALLY (without oxygen), it generates hydrogen sulfide and sulfur dioxide which not only stink, but are highly toxic--even lethal in high enough concentration.

Those gasses, along with methane which is odorless, but flammable, are what knocked out the dealer. Had he been in a confined area, he'd have been lucky to only land in the hospital...several years ago, a gasses from a ruptured holding tank in the bilge of a cruise ship killed two crew and hospitalized several more.* Those gasses were enough to knock out the dealer outdoors!

Holding tanks require only a minimal amount of PREVENTIVE maintenance,* which is a lot easier than cure.* Preventive maintenance doesn't provide any war stories, but I can do without those.

*

 

[motion30]

I ditched my charcoal filter and added larger vent lines per Peggys book I am happy to report with the added ordos chemical I no longer have any tank odor when flushing I put my nose right to the vent fitting and nothing Thanks Peggy

 

[Tony B]

motion30 wrote:
.......*I put my nose right to the vent fitting and nothing.....

*But would you put your lips on it and blow through it?

-- Edited by Tony B on Wednesday 5th of October 2011 10:48:30 PM

 

[RickB]

HeadMistress wrote:
is there a reason you can think of not to use a pressure washer on the inside of a one-piece molded plastic waste tank (25 gallons) to clean and break up sludge and whatnot? The nozzle wand could be inserted through the vent line fitting and then turned in all directions to clean out the inside of the tank.

*

Aside from the fact that it won't work

However, the water needs to go into the tank via pumpout fitting 'cuz that sends it into the tank at the bottom to stir up any sludge and hold it in suspension

That is a parallel to cleaning a fuel tank by putting fuel down the filler pipe. It will clear a small area immediately under the pumpout pipe but by the time the water has moved a couple of inches away it won't have the velocity to do anything.

Sticking a pressure washer wand inside the tank and directing the stream on the sides and bottom will most certainly break up deposits that can then be pumped out normally and the amount of water required will be far less than flooding the tank several times in the vain hope of dislodging the crud that sticks to the sides.

 

[Peter B]

HeadMistress wrote:
Peter, why not just back flush the vent every time you wash the boat...thus PREVENTING a blockage instead of having to cure one?

*That also would work Peggy, so I guess to be honest, I am not an obsessive about washing my boat, especially as until the extra wet past summer, when we got too much and suffered serious floods, we were on water restrictions.* Generally I think it pays most dividends to wash it down just before we are going out in it, so it's nice and clean for when we are on it, rather than after we came in, which many seem to do, but seems a bit pointless to me, as dust gathers in days again, undoing all that washing.* Also, the blocking only happens very occasionally.* But I promise you I will try to remember to give it a quick flush each time I am washing the boat.

 

[HeadMistress]

That is a parallel to cleaning a fuel tank by putting fuel down the filler pipe. It will clear a small area immediately under the pumpout pipe but by the time the water has moved a couple of inches away it won't have the velocity to do anything.

Unless the pumpout line is long and convoluted, a power washer or even a garden hose nozzle will put water into the tank with a LOT more pressure than any fuel pump.

It also assumes that the sludge is still "mud" that's easily stirred up...that you don't wait to do it until the sludge has turned into hardened material that has to be broken up.* The stuff clinging to the walls is, after all, mostly just animal fats, which are fairly easily dissolved in detergent. Any salts or minerals are easily washed away if the tank is flushed 2-3 x year...or at least you flushed out before the tank is winterized, leaving whatever is on the walls to dry out and harden. *

But if you've owned a boat for several years and have never flushed out the tank, even nominally before laying it up empty, getting rid of sludge and buildup is just about impossible no matter what method you use.

Peter,* your approach to boat washing reminds me of a 7 year old boy who sees no point to taking a bath 'cuz he'll just get dirty again.

The solution to watering restrictions on my dock was a raw water wash down pump. We'd take our boats out far enough from shore to be in clean water and use our dinghys to get to the topsides.


-- Edited by HeadMistress on Thursday 6th of October 2011 07:30:28 AM