Help With Electronics- Clean Slate, Everythings Gone.

[David Hope]

I'm new to the Forum and this is my first post. I'm purchasing a Trawler (duel helm, 66') that was in the middle of restoration. All of the electronics with the exception of engine controls have been removed. I've owned a trawler before and it came with the basics. I'm way over my head here, have limited knowledge/experience with the electronics and the best combinations.

This is what I'm looking for:
Navigation
Depth
Radar
Auto Pilot
Flir Thermo imaging (maybe, Budget)

I would love to have this system PC based as I could have redundant touch screens and computers. That part I'm comfortable with, its just that there are so many damn options/choices/manufactures and I'm definitely on a steep learning curve here.

I'm looking for the best bang for the buck so to speak. And I am a firm believer in the KISS theory: Keep It Simple Stupid !



Thanks for the input.
David

 

[Portage_Bay]

Because you want to be PC based I suggest either OpenCPN or Rose Point's Coastal Explorer. I have and use both.
Comparing OpenCPN to Coastal Explorer

OpenCPN
Pros
- Free, donations accpeted if you want to.
- Uses NOAA's free charts. Other nation's charts as well but you may have to pay
- Other chart formats as well depending on where you boat
- Accurate, reliable, all the tools you need and then some
- Good support via the forum
- Runs on tablets and phones making setting up redundant backups easy. I know it runs on Andorid, not sure about Apple

Cons
- For use other than simple moving map there is a bit of steep learning curve
- Some of the important data such as SOG, Heading etc is displayed at the botom of the screen in small type unless you download and use a plug in.
- Setting up electronic input / output can be quirky.

Coastal Explorer
Pros
- Uses NOAA's free charts. Many other formats as well.
- If you boat in Britich Columbia, kind of a long ways from Savanah... A great deal on otherwise expensive CHS chargs
- Accurate, reliable, all the tools you need and then some
- Good support from Rose Point
- Runs on iDevices
- The easist, simplest electronics setup I know of.
- Can be installed in up to 3 devices for one fee. You'd need to read the fine print and see if that is still their policy.

Cons
- Price. $399. Not really a con, good value for the $$$.

If price is the major consideration then OpenCPN, it's all you need and then some. If you want to try Coastal Explorer the app is free for the first 10 days. I suggest you wait to try it until the boat is setup and ready to go.

As for the rest of the gear I think it's hard to beat Furuno for sounder and radar. I will admit I'm still running some old gear and things have changed a lot over the years. Others will offer their suggestions.

Autopilots have changed so much I'll just say I like the older Simrad gear. But mine is an antique so I have no idea what newer offerings are like.

 

[DDW]

OpenCpn runs on Apple Mac OS, but not iOS. Rosepoint runs on iOS but not Mac OS. Both run on Windoz. If starting fresh, I might consider Linux instead. OpenCpn runs on Linux.

 

[mbevins]

Use a "NUC" computer, very small, will run on 12vdc.

 

[David Hope]

I'm familiar with Rose Point's Coastal Explorer. That's the navigation software I was using on my previous boat and was pleased with how it preformed.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I'm familiar with Rose Point's Coastal Explorer. That's the navigation software I was using on my previous boat and was pleased with how it preformed.

If you still have that PC with CE installed they may let you move it to the new PC and boat. They used to be very liberal with that.

One comment on using a laptop, tablet or phone for primary nav. They are not marine hardened. A drop, dousing with water or a bad spike in the power system can take them out. Redundancy is important.

 

[tiltrider1]

I do not recommend PC based electronics. I do have Coastal Explorer and I do use it. I think it’s fantastic but it is my back up system. I have had my PC crash too many times in the past due to windows issues.

I recommend going with one of the majors Furuno, Garmin, Raymarine or Simrad(B&G). While I have intermixed these units on my system, I recommend sticking to one brand all of the same generation for consistency and simplicity.

What you should really be researching are dealers. Who can supply, install, train and provide continuing support. For both where your boat is currently and for where it will be in the future.

 

[twistedtree]

Here's what I think I would do.


-Intel NUC conputer (~$600)

- Timezero Professional (~$1500)
- One of Furuno's NavNet radars. ($1500 to about $6000 depending on the size/power)
- Airmar DT800 depth and temp for N2K (~$400)
- Furuno SCX20 GPS & heading sensor ($1400)
- Furuno NavPilot 711C ($2800)
- Appropriate AP steering pump (~$1000)


You will also need a monitor, preferably a high brightness one, plus keyboard and mouse.


Alternately, you could get a TZT3 MFD to replace/consolidate the monitor, TZ Pro, and NUC. I think you can also directly connect a transducer and get fish finder capability rather than just simple depth as you get from the DT800. Transducer cost is probably about the same as the DT800 cost. ($3600 12" to $8500 19") depending on screen size.

 

[mvweebles]

Coastal Explorer works well with addition of their NEMO N2K translation box (similar to Artisense). Personally, I like to set routes on PC, then download to MFD (simrad in my case). I think you'll find the smoothest AP operation is via a single OEM ecosystem.

I have tried OpenCPN a few times over the years. I could not get the hang of it. Found it frustrating as hell. Coastal Explorer has been easy since day one when I was a beta user 20+ years ago. They have a very generous upgrade policy. I think I paid $100 to renew after a 10-year hiatus.

Peter

Peter.

 

[tpbrady]

I’ve used Coastal Explorer for 17 years and it’s my primary navigation system. Windows crashes are rare. Even then I have both a Garmin MFD (4212) that has radar and sonar and a Raymarine a67 that has its own transducer. I also have a Raymarine autopilot and Amec Camino AIS. In other words I have a little of everything all tied together in a single network. Coastal Explorer with the NEMO gateway is the core due to large screens and ease of use using a wireless trackball and keyboard. On a prior boat with 2 helms I had a remote monitor at the upper helm and due to proximity (it was about 8 feet directly above the lower helm) the wireless keyboard and trackball worked well. With the NEMO, all the NMEA 2000 data is available in Coastal Explorer as well as Navionics on the IPad. That includes weather data and engine data. I can build routes in Coastal Explorer and send the navigation data to the AP. I can export them via SD card to the other MFDs if I want to, but it’s cumbersome so I don’t normally do it.

Tom

 

[David Hope]

Great information. Here is what I was thinking on the PC side of things. I would use Panasonic Toughbooks- one primary and a backup. I can get these thru my business so that's not a direct expense so to speak. I would run Rose Point's Coastal Explorer for navigation which is what I'm use to. I would basically use an expansion switch for the PC's and have multiple touchscreens on both control stations. I used this on my previous boat and felt comfortable. I do like having the flexibility of PC's. I can also tie in camera's, etc to the PC. What I don't have a handle on is being able to tie the system together with the radar, depth, etc. If it makes more sense to bite the bullet and purchase the entire system from one man'f I'll do that. With that said any manufactures that you can recommend that look like they would work for this application would be appreciated. I'm not in a big rush, am looking at having the boat in the water around March.

 

[mvweebles]

One final comment- I like having a single system of record that my wife is comfortable with. For us, an MFD is intuitive and bulletproof. I insisted on a knob for input device in addition to a touchscreen. Finally, we run at night a fair amount. PCs just do not dim adequately for my tastes, but I like a very dark console.

 

[Comodave]

I used to be an engineer for a computer company. When there were mixed vendor systems and there was a problem the first thing we would do is say it is the other vendors problem. Of course they would point a finger at us. And the customer was caught in the middle. That is why I buy all one brand of nav electronics. Then if there is a problem we know who’s problem it is. I personally like Raymarine equipment since I have had excellent support from them. I would rather have dedicated MFDs than a computer, but that is my opinion.

 

[KnotYet]

One final comment- I like having a single system of record that my wife is comfortable with. For us, an MFD is intuitive and bulletproof. I insisted on a knob for input device in addition to a touchscreen. Finally, we run at night a fair amount. PCs just do not dim adequately for my tastes, but I like a very dark console.

Just to help with that last item, photography quality neutral density sheets are
available to place over the screen if you were to find yourself in that situation.

 

[twistedtree]

Great information. Here is what I was thinking on the PC side of things. I would use Panasonic Toughbooks- one primary and a backup. I can get these thru my business so that's not a direct expense so to speak. I would run Rose Point's Coastal Explorer for navigation which is what I'm use to. I would basically use an expansion switch for the PC's and have multiple touchscreens on both control stations. I used this on my previous boat and felt comfortable. I do like having the flexibility of PC's. I can also tie in camera's, etc to the PC. What I don't have a handle on is being able to tie the system together with the radar, depth, etc. If it makes more sense to bite the bullet and purchase the entire system from one man'f I'll do that. With that said any manufactures that you can recommend that look like they would work for this application would be appreciated. I'm not in a big rush, am looking at having the boat in the water around March.

You will need to ask yourself a couple of radar questions.


1) Do you REALLY need radar overlay on your chart screen? If you have been running Coastal Explorer, then the answer is already No.


2) Do you mind having a dedicated radar screen?


Personally, I do NOT want radar overlay on my charts, and I DO want a dedicated radar screen. But that's me.


One of the reasons I suggested using either TZ Pro, or a TZT3 MFD is because they can do radar overlay, and most people want it. If that's not important, then CE plus a stand alone radar is an excellent solution. But I'm biased because that's what I use.


What you CAN do with CE and a stand alone radar is link the two together and display radar ARPA targets on CE. And of course AIS targets will display on both CE and the radar. To me, this is the best of both worlds because you can see the targets you care about on your chart (ARPA targets), but not have the clutter of the full radar return obscuring other important chart data.


I think Furuno is the only vendor who still makes stand along radars, and that's good because their radars are definitely the best of the bunch.


The 1815, 1835, 1935, and 1945 are all commercial grade stand along radars with ARPA support and the ability to send a Target Tracking Message (TTM) to CE. They differ based on screen size and the radar scanner size and power, and of course price. Their are higher end models as well, but my guess is that one of the above will meet your needs.

 

[DDW]

I do not recommend PC based electronics. ....
I have had my PC crash too many times in the past due to windows issues.

That's why I'd consider Linux (or Mac if you lean that way, which is actually Linux with a pretty face). I do get a crash occasionally, maybe every 3-4 years or so on average? Much less often than the MFDs I've had.

 

[MYTraveler]

Here's what I think I would do.


-Intel NUC conputer (~$600)

- Timezero Professional (~$1500)

. . .

Alternately, you could get a TZT3 MFD to replace/consolidate the monitor, TZ Pro, and NUC.

Or go hybrid -- I started with a NN3D black box system, but replaced the boxes (when their irreplaceable video cards started failing) with PCs running TZ Pro. However, I was dissatisfied with the screen performance at the outside stations , so I replaced those with 4 MFDs (1 in the cockpit, 1 in the tower, 2 on the flying bridge), which I now believe is the best of all worlds.

 

[bkcorwin]

We're similar, but its mainly just a legacy of parts changes over the years. I have two nucs running time zero, I have a 16" TZT MFD, and I have an old vx2 BB system as a deep third tier backup.

Given the choice of a blank slate I think I would defintely just go straight nucs and monitors and forego the mfds and BBs. I've got hattelands that seem great. What part of the screens did you not like outdoors?

Or go hybrid -- I started with a NN3D black box
system, but replaced the boxes (when their irreplaceable video cards started failing) with PCs running TZ Pro. However, I was dissatisfied with the screen performance at the outside stations , so I replaced those with 4 MFDs (1 in the cockpit, 1 in the tower, 2 on the flying bridge), which I now believe is the best of all worlds.

 

[MYTraveler]

What part of the screens did you not like outdoors?

Two things -- brightness (especially in combination with extreme dimness capability, I found using dimming shields cumbersome and unsatisfying), and lack of controls (I don't like using touch screens, so I had to use a mouse or keyboard, etc.).

Regarding the comment above about mixing equipment with the result that manufacturers point the finger, for trouble shooting and diagnosis, it is easy for me to run a Furuno-only system by powering up only the MFDs and not the NUCs.

 

[bill.kimbell]

Another opinion: If you go with Garmin or one of the other MFD suppliers, you will spend more but not need to be your own system integrator. You would be able to repeat (probably wirelessly) to PC, tablet, phone. Anybody on board would be able to use the basic functions without your assistance, very handy when dealing with mechanical, navigational or even personnel issues. Just something to consider.

 

[rgano]

I do not recommend PC based electronics. I do have Coastal Explorer and I do use it. I think it’s fantastic but it is my back up system. I have had my PC crash too many times in the past due to windows issues.

I recommend going with one of the majors Furuno, Garmin, Raymarine or Simrad(B&G). While I have intermixed these units on my system, I recommend sticking to one brand all of the same generation for consistency and simplicity.

What you should really be researching are dealers. Who can supply, install, train and provide continuing support. For both where your boat is currently and for where it will be in the future.

Took the very thoughts right outa my head including how I use my Coastal Explorer. My entire suite is Furuno, radar, AIS, sounder, AP, plotter and is simple and bulletproof which is what you want on a boat that size, but all the majors are gonna be satisfactory.

 

[Hobbit]

I agree with most of whats been posted and have used most of the charting programs out there but I really like Coastal Explorer on a PC and I have Furuno chartplotter as back up. That said everything else should be Furuno most fishermen and commercial vessels use it because it works for years and has good after sale back up. I had 30 year old Furuno radar on our last boat and it worked flawlessly. Current boat has 22 year old Furuno that is still going strong. Read some of the reviews about Garmin and Raytheon.....they are scary.
Cheers

 

[CarlF]

I agree with “Let the wife pick the chart plotter.”. It’s important that they be comfortable at the helm.

And have a device - usually an IPad - for the person not at the helm. It’s best if this has different charts. We run Aquamaps on ours.

 

[Circumnavigator]

Here's what I think I would do.
-Intel NUC conputer (~$600)
- Timezero Professional (~$1500)
- One of Furuno's NavNet radars. ($1500 to about $6000 depending on the size/power)
- Airmar DT800 depth and temp for N2K (~$400)
- Furuno SCX20 GPS & heading sensor ($1400)
- Furuno NavPilot 711C ($2800)
- Appropriate AP steering pump (~$1000)
You will also need a monitor, preferably a high brightness one, plus keyboard and mouse.
.

I also like Furuno. If you look around New Bedford/Fairhaven harbor, where there are several hundred fishing boats in the 40-100 foot range, you will see almost all Furuno radars. We used Furuno on Fintry and on Morning Light and have not had a failure of any sort in 20 years and around 20,000 miles. See The Fleet Tender Fintry -- Details for Fintry's equipment list. If you shop around you can do better than the pricing above.



I have used all the commercial packages doing deliveries and on friend's and charter boats. I like OpenCPN a lot. I'm not averse to paying for software -- I own a copy of Maretron's N2KView @$900 and would pay the same for OpenCPN.


A suggestion. Furuno and others get enormous prices for "marine" monitors. Since Furuno's Black Box uses 1280x1024 screens, I buy them at Salvation Army for $10 and carry a spare or two. I have a small inverter to provide the 120VAC. As a marine salesperson will point out, ordinary monitors cannot be dimmed anywhere near as far down as a "marine" screen for good night use. No problem, there's freeware available that will do it.


OpenCPN is running on a Gigabyte Brix with a terabyte of solid state disk. It runs on the same inverter as the screens, independent of the boat's main inverter.


Both boats are set up with three screens -- the one on the left is 1920x1080 and runs OpenCPN usually with a raster chart. The one on the right is 1280x1024 and runs the Furuno Blackbox, usually with radar or the aft camera up. The 1280x1024 in the center runs on the Blackbox when underway, usually with a vector chart. When not underway, a button-push switches it to the Brix. Two screens make a lot of computer things much easier.


Fintry's wheelhouse is here:http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/WHFwd.jpg.


As you'll see, everything is on 19" racks -- over the years things change and it's much easier to upgrade when you don't have to replace a varnished piece of furniture.



And yes, as was commented above, numerical data on stock OpenCPN is very small. You can easily change the font size and also can install one or both of two plugins that allow you to present it in different ways. If you have problems with OpenCPN, the user group is very friendly and responsive -- sort of like us here.


Jim

 

[Taras]

You may want to add AIS while you're at it. Since you're doing a whole new suite, I would add that to the list, IMHO.

 

[ranger58sb]

I think I'd be inclined to recommend something similar to TT's list.

Radar, sounder, and MFD (MFD for display/control at each station; I like Furuno)
Brand-matched AP (controller at both stations)
VHF at both stations (with hailer and auto foghorn function at least at the main helm station)

Plus an AIS transceiver.

Bag the FLIR for later decision.

Laptop-based backup, like CE. (We use TimeZero.) As much as I like our laptop system, I don't see it replacing an MFD-based display -- at least for us. We use ours more for planning, track recording, data capture, etc. Very much influenced by bright sunlight versus screen capability. OTOH, a laptop system could provide much more real-time redundancy at a lower/protected station (which we don't have).

I've intentionally avoided OpenCPN. All the "help desk" dialog at cruisersforum makes it seem like too much of a science project for my taste. Been there, done that, don't want to devote the time to applications like that anymore. Not a criticism of OpenCPN, just our approach. With TZ, we've had about three "help desk" questions over the 12 years or so... easy. Multiply one customer by baziliions of users, their Help Desk probably isn't much different from OpenCPN's... but outa my sight, outa my mind.

I don't usually want to overlay radar on charts, but it's possible with an MFD-radar combo. In our case, we more often split screens, with radar dedicated to a specific subsection of an MFD display. In fact, we often split one MFD into two radar-only displays, one near, one far. You may find an MFD with split radar/chart sufficient for a flybridge (less-often-used?) helm station. Radar on MFD and charts on laptop -- or some other nifty split screen approach -- at the lower station?

Yes, an optional fishfinder/bottom discrimination sounder (e.g., 50/200 Hz) can work with better MFDs like Furuno's TZT3, even alongside a basic DST (235 Hz). One or the other approach can work; both not necessary (although we have both, for redundancy). Typically the FF would be wired directly to it's MFD, though, unlike a typical DST sounder on the NMEA2000 network.

All of our MFD-based nav displays are backed up with at least one nav app on a tablet, too.

-Chris

 

[jeremy.st]

Apple silicon macs have been out for two years now. Has anyone heard if TimeZero, CE, or any other iOS apps have plans to release a version that will also run on MacOS?

 

[bobc]

I run OpenCPN on a couple of old, used Toughbooks. I don't find the program hard to use, but the laptops aren't great in bright sunlight. I use a laptop to show the route and big picture while the dedicated chart plotter shows close-in detail.

AIS is good, but you don't have to get a dedicated AIS transceiver unless you want to be seen. I have a VHF radio that only receives AIS which is good enough for me and doesn't require a dedicated AIS antenna. The AIS data goes to both the chart plotter and laptop.

Furuno has been mentioned several times. Ten years ago I bought a SIMRAD 4G radar and display. It was expensive, but it worked really well until a few months ago. I couldn't get it repaired even though they just stopped selling that model a couple of years ago, and Simrad's new radars don't work with older versions of the chart plotters so I couldn't just buy one of their newer radomes. I couldn't bring myself to reward a company with that level of support so I just installed a new Furuno NavNet solid-state Doppler radar and TZT3 chart plotter.

I was hoping to get good short-range performance from the Furuno but was initially disappointed as the radar auto-tunes everything out when in the marina or running in channels. I finally had to go in and manually adjust gain and clutter settings to get it to work at all. I never had to adjust anything on the 4G system, it just worked really well (until it didn't).

One thing that does work really well with the Furuno is their free tablet app which replicates the display and allows touch control. It was easy to install and set up and it works.

The display is supposed to support overlays, but it doesn't without buying a heading sensor. What it does support is linking the chart and radar scales which is what I prefer to overlays. Unfortunately it's a bit tricky to get the centers aligned. I had to manually move the radar center down to match the boat position in the chart.

Here's why Furuno is popular. I needed to contact Furuno customer support on a chart issue. I just about fell off of the boat when I called and a person answered, and that person transferred me to technical support where another person answered, a person who actually knew things.

 

[sunchaser]

I do not recommend PC based electronics. I do have Coastal Explorer and I do use it. I think it’s fantastic but it is my back up system. I have had my PC crash too many times in the past due to windows .

We are PC based with no issues. Believe it or not our backup PC is 2006 vintage and once a year gets tested. We do nothing except charting, AIS, AP etc no internet hookup at all on the nav PCs.

Resisting the temptations of “upgrading” programs or charts daily or weekly is something we avoid. With Starlink taking off Predict Wind et al weather and communications can be done on a pad keeping the nav PCs sterile.

 

[Portage_Bay]

We are PC based with no issues. Believe it or not our backup PC is 2006 vintage and once a year gets tested. We do nothing except charting, AIS, AP etc no internet hookup at all on the nav PCs.



Resisting the temptations of “upgrading” programs or charts daily or weekly is something we avoid. With Starlink taking off Predict Wind et al weather and communications can be done on a pad keeping the nav PCs sterile.

I'm with you. Much prefer a PC based system. I also prefer stand alone instruments. Unlike you I don't keep the primary nav PC sterile. I want frequent chart updates. But it doesn't go online for internet browsing, streaming, email etc. It has robust anti virus and malware protection.