Hose replacement?

[Djoub]

I have been trying to purge my (new to me) 1998 350 MS of some really bad boat smells. Here’s what I have done so far: Rebuilt the clogged shower drain sump, re-plumbed/re-wired and cleaned all three of the bilge pumps and areas which are now dry. Stripped all curtains/bedding/mattresses and anything porous that could removed. Biggest improvement was to re-route the salon AC condensate drain from the bilge to a thru hull over board. Have sprayed more chemicals, vinegar, and bleach to clean a fleet of boats. Also fixed a bilge ventilation blower that was not working. I even bought the Bible of boat smells from the Head Mistress, which was a big help.

Next step is to replace all 4 sanitation hoses from head, vent, pump out and discharge outlet. All hoses seem original (20 yrs old) and are very sticky.

My problem is the head to tank hose is routed behind the bathroom sink and shower and not assessable. I was able to get a camara up there and can see the hose is ty-wrapped with other hoses and wires.
Any suggestions how to remove and replace that hose. My sawzall is ready if that what it takes but not sure what to cut. Smelly and Frustrated in Florida.

 

[HeadMistress]

My problem is the head to tank hose is routed behind the bathroom sink and shower and not assessable. I was able to get a camara up there and can see the hose is ty-wrapped with other hoses and wires.

Oh yikes...I HATE it when boat builders do that! At least it's not neatly C-clamped to the hull every few feet as it was on a 38 Bayliner MY...hoses that ran all the way from the forward berth to the cockpit. We had to to open up one whole side of the boat get 'em out.

Is there any tool with a cutting edge on a long handle you can get to the tie wrap (hopefully only one)? If not you may have to cut out an access panel to get to it.
Not the worst thing 'cuz if you can make a nice clean cut you can put it back and hold it in place with some nice trim and velcro.

Once you get the hose loose, it may (fingers crossed) be possible to connect the new hose to the old using a male-male connector (glue the hoses onto it...duct tape won't hold and clamps will get hung up) and pull the new hose through as you pull the old hose out.

I'm available offer any help you need to get everything sorted out, so feel free to give me a PM shout if you need me.

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

 

[Djoub]

Thanks Peggy. I have one compartment under the sink that needs opening up but that involves removing all the plumbing. Possible project for this weekend.

While I have you, what can you add about the 20 year old hoses with regards to the stickyness and contributing to the smell? I tried using a wet towel to see if they smell but my nose becomes overwhelmed with odors when I am down in the compartment area of the holding tank.

Last question (maybe), while I have everything pulled apart, should I replace the 37 gallon plastic(?) holding tank? It looks fine and no leaks that I can see. I need to open up a large section in the back of the second state room to get to the tank drain hoses. Removing the tank is a major DIY project and if it is working fine, no odors, then I would rather leave it alone.

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions and in case nobody has mentioned it to you, great book!

 

[HeadMistress]

It doesn't matter whether they stink or not, 20 yr old hoses are at least 10 years overdue for replacement.

As for the tank, if you don't see any signs of leaks around fittings and/or bulging and flexing that can result in leaks, it should not be necessary to replace it. The hoses are the likely source of the overwhelming odor.

And there will be STRONG residual odor left on every surface, nook and cranny those hoses have occupied. So after you get the old hoses out, you'll want to thoroughly clean every area the hoses have even passed through--and the outside of the tank too--with detergent and water...NO bleach! After everything is at least 90% dry, treat every surface, nook and cranny in every area with PureAyre (instructions are in my book).

New hoses: I'd go with Raritan SanFlex RaritanSaniFlex hose 'cuz it's so flexible it can be bent like a hairpin without kinking. Defender has it for <$10/ft.

If you'll have access to the top of the tank, now would also be a good time to "upgrade" the vent line to 1" or even 1.5"...easy to do, thanks to a li'l gadget called the Uniseal UNISEAL . That would also require replacing the vent thru-hull, but worth the effort.

Glad you're finding my book useful! Feel free to give me shout if you still have questions or issues to discuss in more detail than is practical in a forum.

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

 

[ranger58sb]

It doesn't matter whether they stink or not, 20 yr old hoses are at least 10 years overdue for replacement.

Peggie, somewhere around here and elsewhere, I've read your statement that Trident (101/102, I think?) and the Saniflex hoses haven't ever (yet?) had any reported cases of permeation. Can you speak to that briefly, in light of your above comment about 20 year old hoses?

-Chris

 

[HeadMistress]

Everything has a lifespan...and the average working life of ANY hose--sanitation, fuel, exhaust, fresh water--is about 10 years. 'Cuz rubber and plastic dries out over time, becoming hard (which you've said your 20 yr old hoses are), which also makes 'em brittle and prone to cracking and splitting. It's entirely possible, though not likely, that if your hoses are Trident 101 (they'd be black with a green stripe if they are and would have been relatively new on the market...Trident 102 white didn't exist 20 years ago), they may not be the source of your odor, that any odor on the outside of 'em may have attached itself from another source (sewage spill, leaking macerator pump or who knows what). You've also noted that the surface is sticky...a major indication that they've deteriorated a lot.

Otoh, if they're the #148 white flexible PVC that was the most common sanitation hose 20 years ago (and was the first hose I used on my last boat when I replaced the sanitation system as the first step in its total renovation...it permeated in less than 90 days!), it doesn't matter what brand they are...they permeated years ago.


--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

 

[AusCan]

My problem is the head to tank hose is routed behind the bathroom sink and shower and not assessable. I was able to get a camara up there and can see the hose is ty-wrapped with other hoses and wires.
Any suggestions how to remove and replace that hose. My sawzall is ready if that what it takes but not sure what to cut. Smelly and Frustrated in Florida.

Is it a one piece fibreglass sink unit that contain the hoses?

Perhaps pick a a marine glove box to suit the decor. Then just cut a hole under the sink to suit the size. Use the hole to access your hose; then install the glove box and you have extra storage and permanent access for future issues.

 

[Djoub]

So I thought I would follow up on the progress with this smelly project. First thanks to all for your suggestions and help, and to Peggy for her expertise and direction. I followed it almost to the letter. So here is a summary of highlites and low lites:

Replaced all 4 sanitation hoses. I used 1” and 1 1/2” Trident Sani-Shield hoses which has a 10 year “warranty”. These hoses are slightly larger then the original which caused some issues with clearances. All hoses now drain downhill into the tank for the most part.

I did have to cut 2 - 6” access holes into the boat, one to replace the outside thruhull vent, the other to get to a tie wrap behind the head. Speaking of tie wraps, I used a handy 4’ pruning sheer, the kind to reach small branches, cut right thru them behind the shower and fuel tank.

As Peggy suggested, I increased the vent from 5/8 to 1”. I also created a new tank fitting for the head hose using a Uniseal. (was nervous about drilling into tank but all went well, didn’t even drop the cut out into the tank) The new fitting was done to shorten and straighten the head hose run. Previously it had several dips and valleys in it. The old 1” fitting was then used for the new 1” vent hose.

Now all sanitation hoses, bilge hoses, and electrical bundles, are clamped and supported separately which will make future replacement easy.

Still some cleaning and deodorizing (pure-aire) to do, but at least the smell is now very tolerable. Will be much better once we can open up the boat and get fresh dry air thru it. Not possible with Florida weather right now.

Took lots of before and after photos and if anyone has any questions feel free to reach out to me. Now on to the next project: carpet, electronics, fuel, generator, windless, bow thruster? So many to do and so little time (and $$$$) to do them.

 

[Jgutten]

Djoub, I did the same thing with the hoses. I will tell you that the smell takes a long time to go away. It gets into the head liner. We had to replace all the bedding and rip up the carpeting.

 

[jimL]

After reading several posts and doing the hot towel test, I re-read Peggy's publication and now we use CP Potties every time we leave the boat for a few days, and we have no odor. The culprit was the aft head sink which stunk. CP Potties, used weekly takes care of it. We are not to the point of replacing holding tank hoses yet, but will be there in time.

Thanks Peggy.

JimL

 

[Djoub]

Jgutten, Yes, all bedding, curtains, and pretty much anything organic that could be removed was removed and nothing has gone back on till we finish with a top to bottom cleaning. The items removed do freshen up after cleaning and airing out. We have replaced the mattresses with charcoal infused memory foam which I’m not really sure if that is just a gimmick or will help with future odors.

Carpet and sofa are going to be replaced next but we haven’t decided with what. Looking forward when we can settle into the boat and enjoy it.

 

[johnma]

When we bought our 2003 390 we also had smells, especially when lifting the access panel above the steering wheel. It would make your eyes water. After giving every hose I could reach the wet towel test I decided to remove the vent line filter and throw it away. All of the smell went with the filter. If you have one, toss it.
John

 

[johnma]

Speaking of the sofa, we looked all over, on line and at boat shows to see what was available to fit through the door. We decided to have the old one reupholstered. It was half the price of getting one custom made
John

 

[Djoub]

Johnma, there was no filter on my vent hose but the vent thruhull may have been partial clogged. Either way, it’s all new now and hopefully last another 20 years. As Peggy says, filters are just band-aids.

Thanks for the sofa suggestion. We have been looking online (Amazon) at “apartment size” sofas where the back actually bolts onto the frame after you get it thru the door. Worst case, if we have to we can remove both slider doors to get it thru.

 

[JohnEasley]

Thanks for the sofa suggestion. We have been looking online (Amazon) at “apartment size” sofas where the back actually bolts onto the frame after you get it thru the door. Worst case, if we have to we can remove both slider doors to get it thru.

We ended up going to Ikea. They had an L-shaped sofa that fit the available space so snugly and perfectly, it looked like it was custom made. One side lifted for storage and the other side pulled out to make a queen bed. It came in three boxes so the pieces were easy to fit through the door. Also turned out to be way, way less expensive than the marine and RV furniture we looked at. We highly recommend it.

 

[porman]

Regarding sofa's and couches, try Home Reserve located in Indiana. Lots of styles and sizes to choose from and they come in boxes that fit through small doors. Very easy to assemble.

 

[willd]

Hi all,

I just bought a 7 year old boat with 7 year old, filthy, and stinky drain hoses (above water exits from sinks, showers, clothes washer, dishwasher, sump pumps and bilge pumps). I have already ordered the infamous book by @HeadMistress. In the meantime, I'm trying to decide:

1) Do I clean or replace these hoses? I'm leaning toward replacing them since they are so dirty and 3 years away from the 10-yr suggested replacement age. My wife is allergic to mold too so its well worth the expense if new hoses helps with that. But if others think that cleaning them is easy enough and I should get another 3 years of life out of them, then happy to go that route.

2) What hoses are best for this purpose, and how picky do I need to be? I saw hoses similar or the same as what is in there now (see photo) at a nearby shop. But I could order something else if advised.

3) How should I clean the metal joints and connections to the sinks, showers, etc.... I suspect these don't need to be replaced. Just cleaned while I'm down in there.

Thanks in advance for helping out a new, and clueless, boat owner.

Will

 

[Delta Riverat]

Those hoses are dirty?

 

[HeadMistress]

First, there is no such thing as a "suggested replacement age" for hoses. Any hose that's more than 10 years old is definitely living on borrowed time, but hoses can fail in less than a year.



Replacement is the ONLY cure for dirty stinky hoses. Sanitation system (toilet, holding tank, overboard discharge , flush water intake) need sanitation hoses...choose the most odor permeation resistant available. Fresh water system needs hoses specifically for freshwater systems.



--Peggie

 

[koliver]

Those hoses are dirty?

My hoses get some attention very occasionally. My boat is now 42 years old. Many (most?) of the original hoses are still in place. Maybe I should be looking for their "best before, date stamps". I doubt that in 1980 any hoses were ever given a "best before" or a "recommended replacement" time.

Unless they look, smell or feel like they are failing, save your money.

EDIT: I just saw Peggy's post. I agree with everything she says. My hoses are mostly NOT sanitation hoses.

 

[HeadMistress]

I doubt that in 1980 any hoses were ever given a "best before" or a "recommended replacement" time.


Any knowledgeable yard manager will tell you that 10 years is the average working life of any hose because, as rubber and plastics age, they dry out, becoming hard, brittle and prone to cracking and splitting. Several years ago, BOAT/U.S. published a report in which they said failed hoses on thru-hulls left open while no one was aboard was a common cause of boats sinking in their slips.



--Peggie

 

[Mermaid]

I did this job on my 2005 Mainship 400 a year or so ago. For every place I could, I used PVC piping instead of hoses. That won’t permeate. I had to run a hose from the head itself to the vacuum generator. That was difficult. So difficult, in fact, that I found it worth the cash expenditure to have the boat yard do that one run while she was there for seasonal hurricane storage. The guy who got tasked with that always reminds me just how HARD it was. No additional access holes were cut. I had to leave the hold hose in place, but it was bone dry and I had them spray “Great Stuff” foam insulation (in a can) in each end of the cut hose. I don’t have that stink onboard anymore.

This was the same procedure I used when I replaced all four heads and what felt like miles of sewage lines in my former boat, a 58’ Hatteras.

I realize my story is too late for you to make use of now, but next time you have to replace those hoses....I’d opt for PVC for as much of it as you can, assuming you have freshwater flushing heads. I don’t recommend the PVC for saltwater heads because of the “concrete” build up caused by the uric acid in the pee-pee when mixed with the salt. With saltwater heads, you’re going to have to take those hoses out to the dock and beat the snot of out them every now and then to get that “concrete” out.

 

[willd]

Those hoses are dirty?

Ha. Yeah. They used to be clear. Now black with gunk inside.

 

[willd]

Thank you HeadMistress

I’ll replace and then follow the tips in your book for keeping them clean.

Do you recommend a particular hose for draining? Or change to PVC pipe where possible as one commenter suggested?

 

[willd]

Thank you Mermaid.

Are you talking about head (black water) drains or shower/sink (grey water) drains? Or both? It’s not too late for me.

For grey water, I kind of like the clear hoses so I know if they are filthy or not. But if PVC is better happy to consider it.

 

[HeadMistress]

With saltwater heads, you’re going to have to take those hoses out to the dock and beat the snot of out them every now and then to get that “concrete” out.

Mineral buildup in hoses can be prevented with regular doses of about a cupful--2 cups at most--of distilled white vinegar. A 15% solution of muriatic acid will dissolve a buildup. How many applications needed depends on how bad you let the buildup get.

Clear water hose should never be used in a sanitation system. Among other reasons it's not rated for below waterline connections--which rules it out as a flush water inlet hose hose or overboard discharge hose, nor is it even a little bit odor permeation resistant. Even where there's insufficient light for algae to grow in hoses, molds and fungi can grow in the dark...and that's what turns hoses black.

Decent quality sanitation hose is best for sink and shower drains too. If you were in the US I'd recommend Raritan SaniFlex. I think Vetus is available in your part of the world...their top-of-the-line sanitation is the closest thing to the Raritan SaniFlex.

--Peggie

 

[willd]

Decent quality sanitation hose is best for sink and shower drains too. If you were in the US I'd recommend Raritan SaniFlex. I think Vetus is available in your part of the world...their top-of-the-line sanitation is the closest thing to the Raritan SaniFlex.

--Peggie

Great. Thanks. I've found a raritan dealer just a few hundred hards from me. I've emailed them.

I suspect replacing all the drain and shower hoses with sanitation hoses will be more expensive, but I take it you think that is a worthwhile upgrade so I'm happy to take that advise.

Will

 

[Dougcole]

I did this job on my 2005 Mainship 400 a year or so ago. For every place I could, I used PVC piping instead of hoses. That won’t permeate. I had to run a hose from the head itself to the vacuum generator. That was difficult. So difficult, in fact, that I found it worth the cash expenditure to have the boat yard do that one run while she was there for seasonal hurricane storage. The guy who got tasked with that always reminds me just how HARD it was. No additional access holes were cut. I had to leave the hold hose in place, but it was bone dry and I had them spray “Great Stuff” foam insulation (in a can) in each end of the cut hose. I don’t have that stink onboard anymore.

This was the same procedure I used when I replaced all four heads and what felt like miles of sewage lines in my former boat, a 58’ Hatteras.

I realize my story is too late for you to make use of now, but next time you have to replace those hoses....I’d opt for PVC for as much of it as you can, assuming you have freshwater flushing heads. I don’t recommend the PVC for saltwater heads because of the “concrete” build up caused by the uric acid in the pee-pee when mixed with the salt. With saltwater heads, you’re going to have to take those hoses out to the dock and beat the snot of out them every now and then to get that “concrete” out.

I'm due for this job soon. A couple of questions on the head to VF run that you had your yard do.


1. I assume he was unable to attach a new hose to the end of the old one and snake it thorough? Last year when I was had both ends of the hose off for some head work, I pulled on mine to see if it would slide. I was able to move it about 12 to 18 inches before I stopped, so I am hoping it is not zipped tied in too tight.


2. You say he didn't cut any access plates, which sounds great. How was he able to get the end of the new hose through the hole at the VF end without a plate? Did he find a way to access the fwd side of that bulkhead?


Thanks in advance for your help.


Doug

 

[Mermaid]

Doug,

Hi. I wasn’t there when the yard replaced that one hose. I am a boat jack-of-all -trades kind of owner. I used to own a 58' Hatteras with 4 staterooms and 4 heads/showers. In that boat, I replaced all four Galleymaid heads with Vacuflush, and ran all new sewage lines for all of those toilets. That job encompassed running sewage line from four heads to two tanks, and one of those runs was about 50 feet long. I also had the pleasure of rebuilding the guts of the largest holding tank when it was completely full. The copper dip tube had corroded off the fitting on the top of the tank. Oh joy!!!

My point is that I’ve done a LOT of nasty jobs on a boat all by myself because none of my friends wants to come help with that kind of stuff. You can ask, but good luck; been there, got the medal.

When I dug into my Mainship’s stinky hose thing, I set out to do what I had done in the past that worked well. I replaced everything I could with PVC, but that ONE hose about which you inquired is where I drew the line and whipped out my checkbook. Again, I’ve been there and realized the value of cash.

I won’t see the guy who did that job again for a couple of weeks when I go back to that yard to get my boat. It’s a yard that I go to every year for hurricane season haul out, and I get some yard maintenance done while I’m there. What I do remember is how big Alex’s eyes were when he told me, over and over, while pointing down to that part of the floor, “THAT was really, really HARD!!!” And, I know it was. That’s why I delegated that work to the yard. I don’t give the yard the easy stuff because I can do a LOT myself. If I delegate a job to the yard it’s because it’s worth the money.

I can tell you, as I told Alex before he started the job....if you empty the contents in the cabinet under the sink (I have a Mainship 2005 400 Trawler), you will find an access plate to open...and if you stand inside the shower facing toward the hullside, you will see an access plate on your left, all the way towards the hullside. I do not know whether Alex utilized those access areas, but he got the old stinky hose out and a new hose in. Alex is at River Forest Yachting Center in Stuart, FL. He did not cut any NEW access holes to get this done. He used what was there, if that.

 

[Dougcole]

Doug,

Hi. I wasn’t there when the yard replaced that one hose. I am a boat jack-of-all -trades kind of owner. I used to own a 58' Hatteras with 4 staterooms and 4 heads/showers. In that boat, I replaced all four Galleymaid heads with Vacuflush, and ran all new sewage lines for all of those toilets. That job encompassed running sewage line from four heads to two tanks, and one of those runs was about 50 feet long. I also had the pleasure of rebuilding the guts of the largest holding tank when it was completely full. The copper dip tube had corroded off the fitting on the top of the tank. Oh joy!!!

My point is that I’ve done a LOT of nasty jobs on a boat all by myself because none of my friends wants to come help with that kind of stuff. You can ask, but good luck; been there, got the medal.

When I dug into my Mainship’s stinky hose thing, I set out to do what I had done in the past that worked well. I replaced everything I could with PVC, but that ONE hose about which you inquired is where I drew the line and whipped out my checkbook. Again, I’ve been there and realized the value of cash.

I won’t see the guy who did that job again for a couple of weeks when I go back to that yard to get my boat. It’s a yard that I go to every year for hurricane season haul out, and I get some yard maintenance done while I’m there. What I do remember is how big Alex’s eyes were when he told me, over and over, while pointing down to that part of the floor, “THAT was really, really HARD!!!” And, I know it was. That’s why I delegated that work to the yard. I don’t give the yard the easy stuff because I can do a LOT myself. If I delegate a job to the yard it’s because it’s worth the money.

I can tell you, as I told Alex before he started the job....if you empty the contents in the cabinet under the sink (I have a Mainship 2005 400 Trawler), you will find an access plate to open...and if you stand inside the shower facing toward the hullside, you will see an access plate on your left, all the way towards the hullside. I do not know whether Alex utilized those access areas, but he got the old stinky hose out and a new hose in. Alex is at River Forest Yachting Center in Stuart, FL. He did not cut any NEW access holes to get this done. He used what was there, if that.

Thanks for the info. My boat does not have an access plate under the sink, though it would be a good place to put one if needed. The pie plate in the shower does not give access to the head hose, it accesses a vent or a drain in the hull. I think it is the holding tank vent.


I'm hoping I can use the old hose as a messenger to pull the new hose through. Like I said in an earlier post, I was able to slide the hose about a foot when I was replacing the funnel on the bottom of the toilet. I'm pretty sure it would have slid further, but I only needed a foot or so.