How does the boat buying process work?

[f508]

I forum searched boat buying process because I thought this topic has probably already been covered, but I didn't see anything.

It appears that the convention is:
1. View the boat.
2. Make an offer.
3. Pay to have boat hauled, surveyed, and sea trialed
4. Attempt to renegotiate based on the finding of the above, or walk away losing the price of the haul, survey and sea trial.

It seems like I will be about $1000 into the deal before I know what I am actually offering to buy.

Presumably the owner knows the status of the boat, would it be unreasonable to ask him to disclose any known defects, if I stipulated that the disclosed defects would not become a basis for the second round of negotiation? Or would that be futile or wildly unusual to suggest?

When you guys made your offers, did you assume the boat was gong to survey fine, so you didn't mind making that kind of commitment?

If this has already been covered, could someone kindly point me to that thread?

Thanks,

Frank

 

[HiDHo]

Frank, the offer should be contingent on the survey and sea trial in writting. The seller may have a recent survey ( not older than 6 months ) that might be offered and MIGHT be acceptable by a buyer. I would avoid any verbal assurances by the seller or broker unless they are in writting. Sellers maintenance log, receipts for recent purchases and upgrades are always good information, a lack of to me is a red flag. Visual signs of poor maintenance and up keep also ends any buying impulse for me.
Walking away after paying for surveys and haulout may be the best money ever spent in boat buying.

 

[menzies]

ANY used boat, be it one month old (unless the warranties are still current based on what the boat has been through), or 30 years old, get a survey.

Yes you may lose a thousand, heck even two or three thousand.

And maybe a few times over.

But you will avoid the money pit boat and heartache of having a boat you have paid for and cannot use.

 

[BruceK]

Frank, after 2 (make offer) usually comes argument about offer/counter offer/counter offer etc > Agreed Price subject to Survey and Sea Trial.
You could ask the seller to disclose known defects but don`t rely on it, except as a negotiating tool when other defects emerge.
Assume the survey will be as much a discovery as a confirmation process. "Subject to Survey and Sea Trial" largely makes you an option holder,something is likely to emerge which forms a basis to withdraw following those steps.

 

[hmason]

Often a survey will uncover defects that the seller was honestly not aware of.

 

[john61ct]

If you're unhappy throwing a few thousand into a boat-shaped hole in the water with nothing to show for it, stick to the occasional charter

 

[dhays]

It appears that the convention is:

1. View the boat.

2. Make an offer.

3. Pay to have boat hauled, surveyed, and sea trialed

4. Attempt to renegotiate based on the finding of the above, or walk away losing the price of the haul, survey and sea trial.



It seems like I will be about $1000 into the deal before I know what I am actually offering to buy.



Presumably the owner knows the status of the boat, would it be unreasonable to ask him to disclose any known defects, if I stipulated that the disclosed defects would not become a basis for the second round of negotiation? Or would that be futile or wildly unusual to suggest?



When you guys made your offers, did you assume the boat was gong to survey fine, so you didn't mind making that kind of commitment?

Welcome Frank.

You have it about right, but you can negotiate an offer even before you have viewed the boat (I did on one boat). You do more than make an offer, you negotiate a purchase agreement with the seller subject to satisfactory survey and sea trial. At this point you have agreed to buy the boat unless the survey and sea trial find something that wasn't disclosed in the boat description. At that point the negotiated sale is dead. You can make another offer and renegotiate if you still want the boat and the seller may agree or not.

The point is that you need to be sure that if the boat is as you expect it to be, you want to buy that boat. The expense of survey will be more than $1000, closer to $2,000 depending on your area.

The broker needs to disclose any known defects in the boat to you as a buyer. As others have mentioned, you or the surveyor will spot defects that the seller either isn't aware of or has simply become blind to over the length of ownership.

The cost of a survey will be one of your least expensive parts of boating and could save you a ton.

 

[Seevee]

ANY used boat, be it one month old (unless the warranties are still current based on what the boat has been through), or 30 years old, get a survey.

Yes you may lose a thousand, heck even two or three thousand.

And maybe a few times over.

But you will avoid the money pit boat and heartache of having a boat you have paid for and cannot use.

A survey may or may not be needed, and it's certainly NO guarantee that will avoid a money pit. It's no guarantee of anything, and you can do a large part of it yourself, if you know anything about boats.

But a survey will most likely find something wrong that neither the buyer or seller knew about. It may or may not be a big ticket item.

A good engine mechanic or electrician may be equally as important as a surveyor.

Yes, there is a cost for just shopping.

I prefer to:

Talk with the seller, perhaps a few times and have records send with specs and maintenance.
See the boat and do a sea trial (which I would pay for)
Make an offer subject to inspections of my choosing
Inspect
Pay and boat away.... or renegotiate or walk.

 

[alfamike]

Survey - lost money ? --- Good investment in your future boating - NOT this boat !

Here is my opinion of how it goes. #1 - If you can't afford the money for the survey & it bothers you that it is lost money, then you don't have the personality to be a boat owner.

No, the surveys is not lost money, your paying for information, if it shows you issues that would have cost you a lot to fix - it saved you money.
It is an investment in your future boating - not in the boat you pass on.

You view the boat, maybe come back a second time with a friend & spend an afternoon really checking the boat out. You, with this initial info work out a fair offer of what you think the boat is worth. Evaluate how far apart you are from the asking price. If the gap is to big, it may be time to just walk away now.

They if you really want this one, then you make an offer & be sure any & all offers are contingent on Haul out, survey, discovery, etc....

Your offer now is the initial offer, strictly a starting point -- is based on your appraisal of the boat, What you can afford, condition, etc. --
it usually is almost always met with a counter offer, then you may or may not counter the counter offer, if still interested in the boat at this new price point, etc..... it is a negotiated buy/sell price that you two come to.

You need to be prepared to buy at this price if the survey is ok & such.

Then once that is settled - then the haul out & survey, etc occur at your expense ........-- Your paying for information -- which is the cheapest expense you will ever have with your boat.

Now you find out the total picture. --- be prepared to walk away !

Once you have the survey in hand & have spent a couple days going through it in detail, calling around for estimates, etc.. then armed with this info you go to them & say ---- it needs this & that, & tender a revised offer based on this new information which is now $ XX, XXX. deducted off my offer before the survey.

Then of they say no, we are not coming down that far, they may tender a counter to you revised offer. They usually don't come down a lot, so decide your bottom line & see how close you get to it.

No boat is perfect, so it depends in how you feel about the boat, how bad you want this exact boat, etc... -- There are a lot of boats & zillions of them are for sale.

You evaluate your top price & decide how much you can compromise. You decide what imperfections you can live with, etc.

Again, be prepared to walk away if it goes over your dollar budget.

Boats can be a bottomless pit for time & money & you are protecting your self from getting a money pit. There are a lot of them out there. There are Boats with issues so bad you can't get anyone to buy it & not able to use it either. Better to walk away from a money pit & the survey is your key to that information.

Buyer beware.

Good luck.

Alfa Mike

 

[CDreamer]

Frank - here's an example in my experience:

I found a local broker, he spent some time with me and he clearly knew boats. And he understood what I wanted. Good rapport and trust factor between us.
So I identified a boat I thought I wanted. My broker was...less than enthusiastic about the boat - not just the specific one but he didn't think it was the right design, size, etc for me, just from what he knew.
But...we pulled it out of the water for a bottom inspection. I think that was about $250 through his relationship with a yard.
As it came out of the water it was obvious that the hull had a lot of blisters. (Very expensive to repair)

He and I talked, and I told the yard right then, drop it back in...it's a no go. No further inspection needed.

He called me a few days later and said, "I found your boat. Come see it." He was right - we went through the same process plus full survey, counter-offers, and I bought it. Love the boat.

I guess what I'm saying is that the steps you and HiDHo mentioned are all accurate. But for me, the important thing was my broker. I'm an experienced boater - I'd say "above average" in terms of knowledge, brands, etc.. But he knew more than I did and his counsel was invaluable.

 

[CDreamer]

Although "make an offer" can come after an initial inspection, then final offer after survey.

 

[TimButterfield]

If you are worried about paying for multiple surveys and then turning down those boats for one reason or another and losing that money, you may wish to invest in a moisture meter. That's what I did. I have an Aquant Protimeter. This is not used for looking at specific values, but for comparing the values of adjacent areas such as under windows or near doors, or around fittings outside of the vessel. If you get too picky, you may end up passing on otherwise acceptable boats. But, you can also find some boats that look nice, but have areas of rot hidden under fresh layers of paint. Saving the cost of just one failed survey can more than pay for a moisture meter. And, the meter has value post sale also. You can keep an eye on different areas of your boat to see which areas might need addressing sooner rather than later, such as recaulking around your windless, rebedding something, etc.

Doing this in front of the broker can help with negotiating a price as you can show them the same issues you may be seeing. If they pass that information on to the owner, it may help in getting acceptance of a lower offer. This foreknowledge may help, too, when it comes to survey time, possibly reducing the surprise factor for both parties.

 

[gaston]

Find the boat
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker someone picks up the phone and informs broker is on holidays and I should ring back next week
Ring back in 7 days speak to broker broker has forgotten what boat Im talking about but will ring back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring broker and he tell me boat is 600km away and there's no one to show the boat he will ring me when he finds someone local
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back

10 days later Broker rings to see if Im still interested LOL
My question to broker are the photos resent ?? Broker NO I think they were taken when new should get resent photos soon

10 days Later
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back
Ring the broker leave a message to call back.

 

[Peter B]

I don't know why, but I get the feeling you're getting frustrated Gaston. Where are you, and where is the boat, as a matter of interest? Could you not get hold of the owner somehow, and possible arrange to look at the boat yourself, to see if worth pursuing, as a Selene is not to be sneezed at. And just say bugger the broker - he deserves to lose the sale.

 

[ranger58sb]

It appears that the convention is:
1. View the boat.
2. Make an offer.
3. Pay to have boat hauled, surveyed, and sea trialed
4. Attempt to renegotiate based on the finding of the above, or walk away losing the price of the haul, survey and sea trial.

Your first step, here, can be preceded by some additional research... and then VIEW THE BOAT can become a very effective filter right up front.

Once you've identified a candidate, find listings for all other sisterships (assuming there are some)... and do some comparisons about fit, finish, age, equipment, systems, etc. If you're working with a buyer's broker, you can also review recent sales for the same model, compare selling prices, etc. Know the market.

Once you're ready to VIEW THE BOAT, do your own survey. Don't just walk around making sure the beds are made and the galley is wherever the listing says it is (up, down, whatever), that it's actually floating...

Instead, make you own evaluation of over-all condition, what systems work, what systems don't work and need repair or replacement, what access will be like to repair or replace systems (ACs, water pumps, etc.). In other words, get out your own fine tooth comb and go over every inch of the boat. Take a bud, or your buyer's broker, if you need more eyes or more insight.

And then... imagine yourself using the boat. Imagine getting ready for bed. Imagine cooking a meal. Imagine making/serving cocktails. Imagine relaxing with a book. Imagine watching "the game" on TV. Imagine launching the dinghy and taking the dog to shore. Imagine anchoring. Imagine doing an oil and filter change. And so forth.

The first part -- your survey -- is about whether the boat works. The second part is about whether the boat will really work FOR YOU.

Your initial offer should then be consistent with the overall market AND the condition and suitability of that particular example of that boat model... subject to surveys... and it should take into account the cost of things that you have identified as needing repair or replacement, some of the modifications you think you might have to make, etc.

And then the eventual paid marine and mechanical surveys may find some things you didn't or couldn't anticipate with just a visual examination... for further negotiation with the seller.

-Chris

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 508. The FIRST thing I do/did after the initial determinations of style/make/model/price etc of ANY vessel is look at the mechanical areas (ER, bilges, behind dashboards etc.). It is MY opinion that attention to detail and maintenance in those areas is the best indication of the overall condition of the boat.

 

[denverd0n]

It seems like I will be about $1000 into the deal before I know what I am actually offering to buy.

Yeah, you can look at it that way.

In this regard, it is exactly like buying a house. You make an offer, then you get the home inspected. If something unexpected turns up you either renegotiate or you walk away. Either way, you have already paid for the inspection and ya ain't gonna get that money back.

The only difference is that in boat buying we call it a "survey" instead of an "inspection." You spend a little bit in order to, potentially, save yourself a lot.

 

[hollywood8118]

Great thread, I am currently assisting a friend on the sale of his boat. It is a very popular brand bluewater trawler. He listed it at a very fair market price and it had a offer in the first day .. full price. The prospective buyer went the normal route, sea trial, surveys, then revised the offer down almost $ 25k.

90% of the items the prospective listed as reason to lower the price are either maintenance ( but the service is up to date at about 25% of the service life ) and making some changes to the boat that are personal preference items and have nothing to do with the value of the boat what so ever. Of course the two brokers are pushing the current owner to settle.. they have a quick sale at hand and want to do as little as possible. The owner did list the boat for a very fair price and he is currently going through a health issue that he should of NEVER mentioned to his broker as the broker is using that to push him to settle.
I have suggested he lower his price to account for the very few minor items on the survey and tell the brokers to go pound sand.. I have absolutely no faith in his listing broker.. I really feel he has done nothing as the boat is in great shape and really sells it's self. Personally if it was my boat I would pull the boat from the listing broker and either self advertise the boat or hold off and relist with a much better broker that is willing to actually do something.. he didn't even do a proper listing on Y World just a couple pics with a " more pics to follow" line.

HOLLYWOOD

 

[nodestination]

If the boat is for 30,000, buy it for 20,000 - that way you have money to fix it plus sale taxes. Solid glass or cored hull - if cored hull then you will need the survey for sure. I purchase my boat, because of amount of work the previous owner put into it. Buying a boat it is roulette even with survey.

 

[yachtbrokerguy]

When you make your offer you can request a personal sea trial prior to the official survey and sea trial. A test ride after you have a written agreement and a deposit paid, but prior to the expense of haul and survey.
During this test run ask the seller to run the boat at different RPM and watch the engine gauges, run at wide open throttle for a few minutes and check engine temperature, slow to idle and then accelerate and see how much smoke is produced, test electronics, lights , windlass, generator with full load and more.
You can read up on what a survey will look for and ask to see it yourself. You do not need to be an expert to find out if an engine overheats or if there are bad vibrations, or other obvious flaws.
I repeat, do this after a written agreement and with a deposit so the seller does not consider this just a joy ride for you.

 

[Deano]

We did three haulouts and surveys before finding the right boat for us. Close to a $6K investment that has been worth many times that in repairs we don't have to do. Our first survey showed almost $50k needed to get it in the shape that the one we bought for $90 was in. They wanted $110 for it. It was a beautiful Hatteras, but........

 

[BandB]

When you make your offer you can request a personal sea trial prior to the official survey and sea trial. A test ride after you have a written agreement and a deposit paid, but prior to the expense of haul and survey.
During this test run ask the seller to run the boat at different RPM and watch the engine gauges, run at wide open throttle for a few minutes and check engine temperature, slow to idle and then accelerate and see how much smoke is produced, test electronics, lights , windlass, generator with full load and more.
You can read up on what a survey will look for and ask to see it yourself. You do not need to be an expert to find out if an engine overheats or if there are bad vibrations, or other obvious flaws.
I repeat, do this after a written agreement and with a deposit so the seller does not consider this just a joy ride for you.

Very sound approach. For any number of reasons you may find you don't like the boat you thought you'd love. You're the judge. It must meet your satisfaction.

As to what to expect from a survey, the more information you can get before hand the more you can have reasonable expectations. You'd expect different things from different boats.

We get surveys on new boats. We expect nothing or very little. The most we've found is some wiring we didn't like how it was run and they corrected that afternoon.

On a nearly new boat selling at top dollar, I'd expect nearly nothing.

On a 30 year old boat that has been neglected I'd expect a lot and be concerned about major issues such as needing to replace the engines.

How much expense I would expect attached to non disclosed problems varies based on condition but also price of boat. If you've been led to believe a $30k boat has no problems and the survey reveals an immediate need for $20k to be spent, that kills a deal. If it's a $2 million boat then $20k should be easily resolved.

There is one thing I'd like to see introduced to boat sales and if I was buying a used boat I might ask for it. That is a seller's disclosure. They're common on homes and in many states mandated. They list all items and the seller either says they're ok or there are issues or they don't know.

 

[Bacchus]

There are several threads and lots of other resources on DIY survey...
I think this can save /AVOID significant unnecessary expense.
I predict I'll get a bunch of responses from those that will jump to a conclusion...

I would recommend this as a pre-survey to see how many and severity of issues you and/or an experienced friend can identify.

This can potentially give you enough info to decide to go for the full paid survey, sea trial, engine survey or walk away w/o investing more.

On our last purchase I did a 2 day inspection before deciding to proceed further...identified a number of issues that we negotiated before proceeding further.
Negotiated again after haul out and minor blistering identified and an est of repair made.

 

[BruceK]

Reliance on "seller disclosures" is a moveable feast, it depends on the owners veracity, and his knowledge. As you inspect boats your own inspection skills will sharpen, and you will filter out the dross better, and likely avoid going to survey on what we call a "dud".
Do not expect perfection from a surveyor who has 6 hours on the boat, 6 months of ownership will inevitably reveal more.
Do not expect perfection. Any boat owner has items he is watching, which are neither perfect nor yet requiring replacement/attention.
There are sellers who will not re-negotiate post survey.
I made up a checklist form for inspections, to ensure I looked at everything I needed to check. Especially helpful if you see more than one of the same model, memory can confuse similar boats.
While the "buyers broker" thing is not a common here, it might be useful for you.

 

[Seevee]

When you make your offer you can request a personal sea trial prior to the official survey and sea trial. A test ride after you have a written agreement and a deposit paid, but prior to the expense of haul and survey.
During this test run ask the seller to run the boat at different RPM and watch the engine gauges, run at wide open throttle for a few minutes and check engine temperature, slow to idle and then accelerate and see how much smoke is produced, test electronics, lights , windlass, generator with full load and more.
You can read up on what a survey will look for and ask to see it yourself. You do not need to be an expert to find out if an engine overheats or if there are bad vibrations, or other obvious flaws.
I repeat, do this after a written agreement and with a deposit so the seller does not consider this just a joy ride for you.

Yacht Broker Guy,

Let me ask you a questions....

What good does a deposit do? The are ALL refundable if the buyer doesn't buy, so what's the point? I don't do deposits with ANY seller. I have no problem showing that I have the funds to buy and I'm not bullshitting anyone. And I feel it's MUCH for fair to pay for the sea trial prior to offer or survey. How the heck can you make an offer unless you KNOW how the boat runs or have a really good idea.

Another question... How many joy riders do you get. I'm not a broker and have only sold some 20 boats, but have NEVER had a joy rider. And I took everyone for a ride that came over and it's surprising who buys that I would have never expected.

Overall, I've had excellent experience buying and selling boats. (and cars, planes and houses, too). Never an issue.

My profile is to get to know the seller, and if represented, the broker, and that has worked quite well.

 

[Seevee]

Another thing....

A boat or any other toy is NOT and investment, it's an expense. So is the survey, maintenance, and anything else you buy for your toy. One has to decide how much money they would tolerate loosing to operate their toy. One rarely makes money on a boat.

 

[TimButterfield]

sounds like real estate these days

 

[menzies]

yachtbrokerguy,

I put an offer in on a boat two years ago and it was accepted. We did the survey and sea trial. It failed miserably for a number of reasons. Not he least of which was an engine failure on trial and a bottom devoid of any paint and the gelcoat eaten away.

We decided to negotiate anyway and shared the full survey with the listing broker.

We were not successful in reaching a deal. However the broker was now aware of all the issues.

So two questions.

On the listing it says that the details listed are true based on what the listing agent knows. Has this now changed based on the latest information?

I ask because a TrawlerForum member did end up buying this boat. He paid the broker to deliver it and it had an engine failure on the way. Plus other issues.

I shared my survey with the buyer so that he is now aware of what the broker knew.

Does the buyer now have recourse based on what the broker knew after our survey?

 

[f508]

Thank you all so much for your input. I've agreed to a purchase in principle with a seller today. Since it is a private party, and neither one of us have much experience with this, and I am new to boating and have no connections at all, I am hiring a broker to facilitate and keep things on track. Will all of your help I was able to get educated fast.

Thanks again!

 

[78puget-trawler]

No matter how it works out, or how much you end up paying for it, in the end you will lose money, its a boat. The nature of the beast. I looked the boat I bought over pretty closely myself, spend a few hours aboard looking under fuel tanks etc., owner thought that was funny! Asking price was IIRC about 45K, made an offer of 30K, was turned down, upped to 35 and bought the boat. No major issues to repair or rebuild but still now have over 50K in it. Should have got it for 20K. But hey, its a boat. BOAT bucks. Break out another thousand. That big hole in the water you pour money in......LOL.