Hull Laboratory Results- Ranger Tug

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bucketlist1

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Aug 31, 2020
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Location
Canada
Vessel Name
Lemon-Aid
Vessel Make
Ranger Tug R-27
Some of you might find highlights of these Lab Results very interesting , I did .

We did 2 sample cut outs , They tested tensile , yield and compression strength . They checked for voids in the fiberglass with an electron microscope . An Ash test was done by burning off the resin to see the weight difference and it leaves you with the different fiber layer thicknesses .

I found it very informative , it explains the makeup of the hull on my 2018 R 27 Ranger Tug which I have issues with . see below highlights
 

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What issues prompted the testing? Possibly the results speak more to a mass produced craft like many others where volume trumps quality.
 
I think the problem is going to be that you don't have anything to compare too. So now you know everthing down to the atomic level of your hull...... Is that different from all other Ranger hulls....from an industry standard.....from when your boat was new...

I guess what I'm saying is all this data still can't overcome Ranger's likely defense of "We have built lots of boats exactly like this and they all are fine.."
 
Actually the test results are about what I would have expected for a "value class" mass constructed FRP boat. 20 Ksi ultimate is about all you can hope for with polyester in an indifferent hand layup. The voids shown seem typical of that process. The lab report talks about "depending on the vacuum pressure applied during manufacturing", suggesting that they are more used to testing higher tech GRP than a hand laid up mass produced power boat. Vacuum bagged epoxy layup is almost never done in that market. I don't even think infused hulls are common. With an extremely well controlled, vacuum bagged and autoclaved epoxy/glass layup you can get 40 Ksi. But you will pay twice as much or more for that boat.

I think you have a lightly built boat conforming to existing practice for its type, that was subjected to loads exceeding its strength. It broke, as would be expected. Might be time to accept and move on.
 
If one has to have to resort to microscopy, whether SEM, TEM or light, to determine if a GRP layup was performed correctly then there is no problem with the process. The 'voids' noted on the micrographs are so tiny as to not have an effect on strength. Delamination would produce a void that would be on a macroscopic scale and could be photographed without magnification. And, as mentioned, without a control specimen the findings are of no value IMO. Good luck with your suit.
 
Hi Bucketlist1.

OK, you had a lab perform mechanical testing of two (2) samples of material, taken from an undocumented location of a 2018 Ranger 27 hull. The results of which are posted.

Some observations from an advanced-degreed professional mechanical engineer (me), with 45 years in the field of design, development, manufacturer, test, evaluation, use, blah blah blah of various fiber reinforced composite materials in marine use:

a. A sample size of two (2) is WAY fewer than necessary to develop a sound conclusion of the mechanical properties of this hull. Quality assurance practices require orders of magnitude more samples than you have presented to reach conclusions to the overall makeup of a composite part.

b. No information is presented on the location from which these samples were extracted. Doing mechanical testing on failed composites will inevitably yield sub-standard results. Should these samples have been extracted from a damaged portion of this hull, these tests are simply invalid to form any conclusions of the soundness of the laminate.

c. American Society for Testing Materials (ASTM) has developed standard coupon size for composites for a good reason. Substandard coupons (such as the two you submitted for testing) generate abnormal stress distributions within the tensile testing machine grips that skew results unacceptably. At least the picture of the one post-failure sample you provided appears to have failed in the necked-down region as expected. Pretty darn close to the grip end, however. Again, no reasonable conclusions can be extracted from the tensile tests, due to these anomalies.

d. Voids appear in the matrix upon examination under a scanning electron microscope (SEM). Given that I do not know the exact method of manufacture by Ranger Tug, but can guess from decades of composite manufacturing experience, I suggest there are voids in ALL fiberglass reinforced composite materials typically used in mass produced recreational boat hull materials, similar to those you report. I do not explicitly know the quantity, size, and sample distribution of voids that is the norm for the industry, nor the norm for Ranger Tug. Thus your results are simply your results of a VERY limited sample. Again, no reasonable conclusions can be extracted from these SEM images.

e. Laboratories are tasked to TEST materials, not form conclusions. That's for the professional engineers charged with evaluating the test results. Thus, your lab's "observation" (image 5) that your sample results are "...below the values reported" is improper. In particular, the reference [1] cited in your report could not be found in the information you provided. However, the lab makes reference to vacuum pressure during manufacturing of their referenced material values. But there's no indication that Ranger Tug uses vacuum in their manufacturing process. This is an improper observation (apples to oranges). The values this lab reported for your samples are simply what they are and cannot be used to conclude you particular samples are substandard.

Sorry to go on so long. Yes, your posting was interesting. But little else. If you're seeking affirmation that your particular boat has latent defects caused by manufacturing errors, you won't get them from me. It's unclear of your agenda from this posting, but I am very, very careful of putting into the public domain (i.e. this forum) information that is potentially damaging to others. Libel comes to mind.

Regards,

Pete
 
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Sorry to go on so long. Yes, your posting was interesting. But little else. If you're seeking affirmation that your particular boat has latent defects caused by manufacturing errors, you won't get them from me. It's unclear of your agenda from this posting, but I am very, very careful of putting into the public domain (i.e. this forum) information that is potentially damaging to others. Libel comes to mind.

Regards,

Pete

Oh, we know his agenda. This is his third thread here and he's been booted from other forums.
 
Many publications on fiberglass boat building say the keel area is 2 times as thick as the rest of the hull ....at 6-7 mm at keel , does that make the rest of the hull 3-4 mm ???
 
Ok, so what’s the point? What exactly are you asserting/claiming, and what does this say, imply, or prove. After all these threads, your web site, and all the holes you drilled in your boat, I still don‘t under stand your “case”.
 
I wanna see more. Please XRF your fuel tank and thru hulls and stainless fittings for comment. Also, grab a portable FTIR and check out the important o rings and gaskets.
SEM on the sunbrella thread count may be spectacular . [emoji41]
 
I think there is a connection between this thread and the thread on the lawsuit against Malibu boats. In both cases there is a person who feels wronged, a few middlemen who might be responsible, and then a set of really deep pockets. So what do you do ?Ignore logic and go for the deep pockets!!

Keep tilting at those windmills, Don!
 
I find these discussions interesting and sometimes educational. I think there is always a possibility for quality control issues in any product and if we dont keep our eyes open it may cause us problems in the future. I get the motives of the op but that does not clear all the manufactures and suppliers of any problems with there products.
 
Shocking. Just shocking. Who knew that a boat manufacturer would use glass filaments anywhere from 20-30 microns thick. Terrible quality control. Clearly the lab believes filaments should all be exactly the same diameter.

And a 50 micron void? I am speechless. I am surprised my boat is still floating. I should have it hauled immediately. It might spontaneously delaminate if it falls off the lift.

I'm thinking of taking my sawzall to the hull once it's hauled. Just thinking about all those 50 micron voids. They need to be ground out and filled.
 
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After all this testing, what are the conclusions other than you now have a boat with 2 big holes in it?
 
I find these discussions interesting and sometimes educational. I think there is always a possibility for quality control issues in any product and if we dont keep our eyes open it may cause us problems in the future. I get the motives of the op but that does not clear all the manufactures and suppliers of any problems with there products.



I could agree more, but I have yet to hear the problem statement beyond simply “my boat got smooshed and it’s someone’s else’s fault”.

The OP has been asked over and over again and doesn’t answer. All we can conclude it that his sole objective is to smear Ranger. If he can’t come up with something, I expect this thread will get closed just like all the others he has started on this subject.
 
Wait until he says that he doesn't want to involve his insurance company.....that's when the thread usually goes off the rails.
 
Caution: Ranger has more attorneys than he does.
 
I could agree more, but I have yet to hear the problem statement beyond simply “my boat got smooshed and it’s someone’s else’s fault”.

The OP has been asked over and over again and doesn’t answer. All we can conclude it that his sole objective is to smear Ranger. If he can’t come up with something, I expect this thread will get closed just like all the others he has started on this subject.


The problem with the op is there are other exposures and mishandling that most here will have little sympathy. While getting thoughts on hull construction and quality control measures helps people with purchase decisions and comments that entry level boats may be lighter or cheaper that does not allow for mishandling the hull.
I do still find it entertaining and i love the fact that our group has the maturity and respect for each other to chat around the campfire, have different opinions ,drink some wine and all be friends with a common interest in all things boating .
 
Another rabbit pursued down a rabbit hole. The OP needs to get a life not dominated by obsession and cease bothering others with it. The mental health issue is of greater proportion than any issue with the boat.
 
Another rabbit pursued down a rabbit hole. The OP needs to get a life not dominated by obsession and cease bothering others with it. The mental health issue is of greater proportion than any issue with the boat.

Maybe he is attempting to influence a down the road jury pool :blush:
 
Wifey B: I appreciate all bucketboy's posting. I'm going to incorporate it and his website and everything else into a book of making the worst out of a bad situation. Sort of the opposite of Ray Stevens':


Thought initially I'd need more cases for my book but as he spends more and more money pursuing a hopeless cause and goes without boating for months, then years, I think his case will provide enough material. I would ask the following two questions seriously of him and he's welcome to treat them as rhetorical and answer only to himself. :ermm:

1. Financially. Are the low odds and low potential possible winnings worth all the expenditures in trying to get there. This makes the lottery look like a sure thing. It's like investing (my numbers here but please OP insert your own) $50,000 on a 1 in 50 chance you'll win $200,000. :eek:

2. Emotionally. Is this wild fight worth it to you? I don't know. Maybe a matter of principle to you? If something is a major matter of principle to me, then the fight for it energizes me and is all worthwhile. Heck, my Don Quixotic hubby perhaps even more so. However, I might do so with less control than him and those things I'd invest my heart and soul in are not boats or warranties. :confused:

You called my hubby Dr. Phil. I'm not playing Dr. Phil but simply asking that you ask yourself those two questions to determine how long you'll continue this fight. :)
 
One final question for all. I have active fin stabilizers on there way and expect to get next week. I will need to drill a couple 6 inch holes in the boat for the install. Am i going to send the two cores to the lab?:)
 
Hi Bucketlist1.

OK, you had a lab perform mechanical testing of two (2) samples of material, taken from an undocumented location of a 2018 Ranger 27 hull. The results of which are posted.

Some observations from an advanced-degreed professional mechanical engineer (me), with 45 years in the field of design, development, manufacturer, test, evaluation, use, blah blah blah of various fiber reinforced composite materials in marine use:

a. A sample size of two (2) is WAY fewer than necessary to develop a sound conclusion of the mechanical properties of this hull. Quality assurance practices require orders of magnitude more samples than you have presented to reach conclusions to the overall makeup of a composite part.

b. No information is presented on the location from which these samples were extracted. Doing mechanical testing on failed composites will inevitably yield sub-standard results. Should these samples have been extracted from a damaged portion of this hull, these tests are simply invalid to form any conclusions of the soundness of the laminate.

c. American Society for Testing Materials (ASTM) has developed standard coupon size for composites for a good reason. Substandard coupons (such as the two you submitted for testing) generate abnormal stress distributions within the tensile testing machine grips that skew results unacceptably. At least the picture of the one post-failure sample you provided appears to have failed in the necked-down region as expected. Pretty darn close to the grip end, however. Again, no reasonable conclusions can be extracted from the tensile tests, due to these anomalies.

d. Voids appear in the matrix upon examination under a scanning electron microscope (SEM). Given that I do not know the exact method of manufacture by Ranger Tug, but can guess from decades of composite manufacturing experience, I suggest there are voids in ALL fiberglass reinforced composite materials typically used in mass produced recreational boat hull materials, similar to those you report. I do not explicitly know the quantity, size, and sample distribution of voids that is the norm for the industry, nor the norm for Ranger Tug. Thus your results are simply your results of a VERY limited sample. Again, no reasonable conclusions can be extracted from these SEM images.

e. Laboratories are tasked to TEST materials, not form conclusions. That's for the professional engineers charged with evaluating the test results. Thus, your lab's "observation" (image 5) that your sample results are "...below the values reported" is improper. In particular, the reference [1] cited in your report could not be found in the information you provided. However, the lab makes reference to vacuum pressure during manufacturing of their referenced material values. But there's no indication that Ranger Tug uses vacuum in their manufacturing process. This is an improper observation (apples to oranges). The values this lab reported for your samples are simply what they are and cannot be used to conclude you particular samples are substandard.

Sorry to go on so long. Yes, your posting was interesting. But little else. If you're seeking affirmation that your particular boat has latent defects caused by manufacturing errors, you won't get them from me. It's unclear of your agenda from this posting, but I am very, very careful of putting into the public domain (i.e. this forum) information that is potentially damaging to others. Libel comes to mind.

Regards,

Pete
Thanks for taking the time write up your evaluation of the testing done. Gives us a better understanding of the results. :thumb:
 
One final question for all. I have active fin stabilizers on there way and expect to get next week. I will need to drill a couple 6 inch holes in the boat for the install. Am i going to send the two cores to the lab?:)

Wifey B: Need to drill 4 holes. 2 where you want them and two more 6 feet forward, then send cores for analysis and hold up on all activity until you have the results. :)
 
I am going to disappear. Call me if there is an exciting conclusion.
Here, take my lance. I am too old to lift it.
Best of luck.
 
If there is one thing to remember from this ..... 6.3 mm ( that's less than 1/4 '' ) 1 1/2 '' to port side of keel . Builders double up ( overlap ) the fiberglass in the center .

6.3 mm ..... would you want that thickness on your 27 ft hull ? Remember this is not epoxy resin , carbon fiber or high end composites . Have a good long weekend .
 
If there is one thing to remember from this ..... 6.3 mm ( that's less than 1/4 '' ) 1 1/2 '' to port side of keel . Builders double up ( overlap ) the fiberglass in the center .

6.3 mm ..... would you want that thickness on your 27 ft hull ? Remember this is not epoxy resin , carbon fiber or high end composites . Have a good long weekend .

Another thing to remember is to have a used boat surveyed BEFORE you close the sale. That's the time to find hidden damage.
 
If there is one thing to remember from this ..... 6.3 mm ( that's less than 1/4 '' ) 1 1/2 '' to port side of keel . Builders double up ( overlap ) the fiberglass in the center .

6.3 mm ..... would you want that thickness on your 27 ft hull ? Remember this is not epoxy resin , carbon fiber or high end composites . Have a good long weekend .



U would be shocked at the typical sailcat thickness below waterline. Fast power boats need more. But its more complex than that, due to stringer design and more…
 
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